Macht Schnell Stage 2 Intake and Pulley INDEPENDENT dyno test

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

Dude! Who am I not treating with respect?

EDIT - and seriously man, anyone that has any dyno experience, or has followed things here will tell you that two dyno runs will not prove anything. Even Kenny mentioned this in his testing philosophy, so I don't even know what you are arguing with me about...

Taking the piss out of KennyPowers dyno test is disrespectful especially since all expenses are coming out of his pocket (paying for intake, paying for install, paying for dyno time).

I'm not even arguing with you: you have your views on how to conduct the test (which I don't agree with) and I have mine. End of story.

Since you're the resident expert on dyno testing vendor parts how about you step up to the plate and provide an independent dyno test? Otherwise, you've made your points clear so why not step aside and wait for the results?

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by tinpot

Taking the piss out of KennyPowers dyno test is disrespectful especially since all expenses are coming out of his pocket (paying for intake, paying for install, paying for dyno time).

I'm not even arguing with you: you have your views on how to conduct the test (which I don't agree with) and I have mine. End of story.

Since you're the resident expert on dyno testing vendor parts how about you step up to the plate and provide an independent dyno test? Otherwise, you've made your points clear so why not step aside and wait for the results?

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. If you are referring to my last post, it is a reference to THE Kenny Powers. So if you think I was ridiculing him, then you are mistaken. Also - he posted it here for feedback. Did he just want people to praise him for his future dyno test? I don't think so...

The only issue I've had with anyone in this thread is you claiming that certain things did not add power without providing the data that supported your claim. While at the same time, there is a landfill of data supporting the contrary point - that they do add power. I've also offered my opinions to Kenny; he doesn't have to take them or even respond to them if he doesn't want to...I don't see what the problem is here.

I am not the resident dyno expert, and I don't know why you are pissed off at me. I've just been following things intently since I bought this car. If you must know, I am planning on going to the dyno this summer to document my Evolve tune. I wasn't able to last summer because of a shoulder surgery and the local dynos are crap. I don't go to them because they have shitty fans and there is NO WAY to get the car to converge on a peak number if timing is bouncing all over the place. Right now I have basically no motivation to test the intake, which is a pain in the ass to remove/install, unless something changes. If I get stupid-bored (unlikely) I will actually pressure test it.

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. If you are referring to my last post, it is a reference to THE Kenny Powers. So if you think I was ridiculing him, then you are mistaken. Also - he posted it here for feedback. Did he just want people to praise him for his future dyno test? I don't think so...

The only issue I've had with anyone in this thread is you claiming that certain things did not add power without providing the data that supported your claim. While at the same time, there is a landfill of data supporting the contrary point - that they do add power. I've also offered my opinions to Kenny; he doesn't have to take them or even respond to them if he doesn't want to...I don't see what the problem is here.

I am not the resident dyno expert, and I don't know why you are pissed off at me. I've just been following things intently since I bought this car. If you must know, I am planning on going to the dyno this summer to document my Evolve tune. I wasn't able to last summer because of a shoulder surgery and the local dynos are crap. I don't go to them because they have shitty fans and there is NO WAY to get the car to converge on a peak number if timing is bouncing all over the place. Right now I have basically no motivation to test the intake, which is a pain in the ass to remove/install, unless something changes. If I get stupid-bored (unlikely) I will actually pressure test it.

Jeez - you don't give up!

Check PG's dyno DB for my dyno results. If you have any questions, send me a PM and I'll be happy to answer your queries or send other dyno sheets. I even have the drf files which are available for download from the DynoDB or I can email them to you.

To summarize my "claims": the AA pulley makes no power and catback exhausts make no power. I've never had a an intake so I make no claims other than expressing my doubts.

Ok, you win the internet wars and I'm off to bed

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by tinpot

Jeez - you don't give up!

Check PG's dyno DB for my dyno results. If you have any questions, send me a PM and I'll be happy to answer your queries or send other dyno sheets. I even have the drf files which are available for download from the DynoDB or I can email them to you.

To summarize my "claims": the AA pulley makes no power and catback exhausts make no power. I've never had a an intake so I make no claims other than expressing my doubts.

Ok, you win the internet wars and I'm off to bed

Give up? Did you want me to ignore your questions? I'm at a loss as to how I can curb my behavior to satisfy you.

I don't agree that pulleys don't add power, because there are independents and manufacturers I trust, who have shown that they do add power. Likewise, you said you added the MS filter and lost power.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=35

Since basically any filter will add power, I asked how you tested. After that you told me that the testing should be simple 1,2,3...when, in my opinion, you have to do more work to control the test.

I didn't know I was supposed to go looking for your dynos. I saw one posted here for a sec before the link was deleted, but I didn't see before/after, correction factors, etc. It's clear that m3post has a zero tolerance policy on linking to PG's site, so people should start mirroring the data, or at least give some kind of pointer to find it.

Anyway, sleep well and have a great day tomorrow.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

A lot of times, you can't even get an M3 to stabilize in 3 dyno runs...not to mention that 5-10WHP is almost signal noise with this amount of horsepower...ESPECIALLY if the dyno has shitty fans, which is usually the norm vs. the exception unfortunately.

Kenny Powers is a man though, and a legend, so I'm expecting him to blow my fucking mind with a professional dyno test : )

every car that we tested on the dyno the first time around was within 3-5 whp on each run, and each car was run 4-5 times.

i really dont think its that complex. we are not trying to claim that we can identify absolute numbers that the car will produce. just a delta.

if the parts make power, the test will show it. now, maybe one car will get 14whp and another one will get 12whp. but if significant gains are seen on my car, it is very reasonable to expect signficant gains on any other m3.

if the car only makes 3whp more power on average, then i would basically call that no gains and the product should not be advertised to make power.

and yes, I am the f*cking man

[Black Gold]

BIG THANKS to robert and IMG for sending out a BT tool overnight to me for this test

Robert has made a program for the BT tool that will gather all of the desired data such as spark, AFR, RPM, etc.....

Look for preliminary results sometime this evening and properly prepared graphs soon....

[THE TECH]

Waiting!!

[TX335]

Anxiously waiting for the results...

[Wendall]

Subscribed!

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

every car that we tested on the dyno the first time around was within 3-5 whp on each run, and each car was run 4-5 times.

i really dont think its that complex. we are not trying to claim that we can identify absolute numbers that the car will produce. just a delta.

if the parts make power, the test will show it. now, maybe one car will get 14whp and another one will get 12whp. but if significant gains are seen on my car, it is very reasonable to expect signficant gains on any other m3.

if the car only makes 3whp more power on average, then i would basically call that no gains and the product should not be advertised to make power.

and yes, I am the f*cking man

Sounds like you have a good dyno and operator - not the norm unfortunately, but that is great to hear.

I'll let you complete your testing, rather than continuing to split hairs. I think we've both made our opinions clear.

FACT: Kenny Powers has never had a drink of water!

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

BIG THANKS to robert and IMG for sending out a BT tool overnight to me for this test

Robert has made a program for the BT tool that will gather all of the desired data such as spark, AFR, RPM, etc.....

Look for preliminary results sometime this evening and properly prepared graphs soon....

Very cool!

[Black Gold]

Results are in.........

We did ten dyno runs, in 5th and 4th gear. We also gathered data using the BT tool.

That data will all be processed and posted up sometime this weekend.

Average results were gains of 11.5whp and 10wtq throughout the powerband, from about 2500 RPM to redline. These numbers are SAE corrected.

The best comparison is between run 5 and run 9, the engine was at similar temperatures for these runs.

Run 5 - 338.6whp / 260.78wtq (baseline)
Run 9 - 351.7whp / 270.34wtq (MS intake and pulley)

These runs were done in 5th. The dyno operator felt strongly (runs a race team and built an m3 race car that currently competes) about running the car in 5th because it is 1:1. Runs were also done in 4th, and the numbers are slightly lower, but the same delta exists.

The runs were very consistent, each run (baseline and mods) were within 2whp of each other.

[M3DCTBT]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

BIG THANKS to robert and IMG for sending out a BT tool overnight to me for this test

Robert has made a program for the BT tool that will gather all of the desired data such as spark, AFR, RPM, etc.....

Look for preliminary results sometime this evening and properly prepared graphs soon....

<--- I know where that program came from

I saw 8-10whp gains with my MS STG2 and on a customers car. M3 is very hard to dyno. You must get 5-6 baseline runs with the car at temp while stabilizing IAT and coolant temp. It takes a while. Numbers will plateau. Then another 5-6 parts/tuned etc runs after stabilizing both temps. Usually the best power comes in the 6th run.

Proper fans must be used for the kidneys/airbox.

[Wendall]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Results are in.........

We did ten dyno runs, in 5th and 4th gear. We also gathered data using the BT tool.

That data will all be processed and posted up sometime this weekend.

Average results were gains of 11.5whp and 10wtq throughout the powerband, from about 2500 RPM to redline. These numbers are SAE corrected.

The best comparison is between run 5 and run 9, the engine was at similar temperatures for these runs.

Run 5 - 338.6whp / 260.78wtq (baseline)
Run 9 - 351.7whp / 270.34wtq (MS intake and pulley)

These runs were done in 5th. The dyno operator felt strongly (runs a race team and built an m3 race car that currently competes) about running the car in 5th because it is 1:1. Runs were also done in 4th, and the numbers are slightly lower, but the same delta exists.

The runs were very consistent, each run (baseline and mods) were within 2whp of each other.

Awesome. Getting my pulleys next week.

[tinpot]

Solid results! Too bad you didn't have another 49 M3's on hand Hmmm, I think Tom@EAS is going to be getting a call soon.

KennyPowers - thanks for taking the time, effort, and expense to conduct this unscientific test

[1MOREMOD]

Thanks for your efforts kenny.

[PNWM3]

Originally Posted by talontid

and that's the prob. I have been modding cars a long time and work with cars almost daily. You don't need to open up the variables by throwing many random cars at a dyno. The car is the constant, and the parts changed are the variables to measure any differences in power. It doesn't even matter if it's a mustang/dynojet/dynapack, etc (all will read diff) what you're looking for a the changes. And not just peak #s, but an overall increase, specifically I don't care that an intake adds +8 hp at 8200 (dinan)... I want better low end torque to make the car usable. Please don't fall victim to manufactures claims... I built many of my own cars and have made lots of power. I don't really see the need of the BMW m3 community to overanalyze every topic in here. Like I said before... Take a car, get a baseline, dyono parts, note changes, go home!

But your approach only is meaningful for one car. If EAS says the pulleys add 14HP but KP's test shows they only get 10HP, it doesn't mean EAS is lying, it means with 2 cars in the sample size, the average HP gain is 12HP. Do the same test on 100 cars or 1000 and you eventually get to the most accurate number as to what you will most likely see. Actually the median is even more accurate than the average to what you would most likely see but close enough for this widely imaginative (from many sides) thread on what constitutes "scientific" testing.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Results are in.........

We did ten dyno runs, in 5th and 4th gear. We also gathered data using the BT tool.

That data will all be processed and posted up sometime this weekend.

Average results were gains of 11.5whp and 10wtq throughout the powerband, from about 2500 RPM to redline. These numbers are SAE corrected.

The best comparison is between run 5 and run 9, the engine was at similar temperatures for these runs.

Run 5 - 338.6whp / 260.78wtq (baseline)
Run 9 - 351.7whp / 270.34wtq (MS intake and pulley)

These runs were done in 5th. The dyno operator felt strongly (runs a race team and built an m3 race car that currently competes) about running the car in 5th because it is 1:1. Runs were also done in 4th, and the numbers are slightly lower, but the same delta exists.

The runs were very consistent, each run (baseline and mods) were within 2whp of each other.

Sorry Kenny, but what kind of a dyno was this?

My dyno was also in 5th gear.

[TX335]

Nice results. Baseline was with the AA green filter, right? Did you do any runs without the pulley, i.e. with just the new intake?

[flipm3]

I like the findings you concluded from your testing. This may be next up on the list for the E90 M3

[kitw]

I wish more people would dyno intakes separately. We all know that pulleys make some sort of power, but there are very few conclusive intake dynos.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by kitw

I wish more people would dyno intakes separately. We all know that pulleys make some sort of power, but there are very few conclusive intake dynos.

kit did you feel your dyno of the AFE STG.2 CAI was pretty represenative?

Dave