Macht Schnell Stage 2 Intake and Pulley INDEPENDENT dyno test

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

The only real debate at this point is if the elbow of the S2 intake itself makes significant power, or if it is just the filter. Personally, I don't believe you are going to be able to measure this on a dyno as the change is likely too small. It will require a pressure test to really prove the reduction in restriction.
: )

if it requires a pressure test to measure any difference and the gains arent substantial enough to see on a dyno......then there basically arent gains.

the intake can only increase power in two ways. A ) IAT decrease which seems very unlikely considering they use the same filter housing and induction hardware or B ) increase in airflow.

So if there is no increase on the dyno, the pressure test must show that the two setups are very very similar if not identical.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by BASELINE

For the sake of science, and the good of the community. You should baseline your runs with an OEM filter, after that you could test the Green if you want as well, to see the change from your own previous setup. That way you'll have a OEM vs MS2, and also some other number comparing a regular drop-in vs an intake that changes other hardware. It would still be valuable information as many people have drop-ins, wonder if going MS2 is worth the upgrade.

But comparing a drop in to the MS2 intake is not what the vendor is doing, and would make any implied foul play on numbers or straight comparisons invalid.

I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by tinpot

To keep this post on topic, could you PM me dyno results showing a pully making power? I'm more than happy to say my results are a outlier if you can show me a pulley making power on an M3.

For other interested, we have a post here (with dynos) detailing hp gained from pulleys:

Bang for the Buck Mods: Macht Schnell UDPs & Dyno Findings
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649151

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by tinpot

After correction I was within 1 or 2 whp.

I don't even know why people bother commenting if they arent going to provide the data to make their comment worthwhile.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

if it requires a pressure test to measure any difference and the gains arent substantial enough to see on a dyno......then there basically arent gains.

the intake can only increase power in two ways. A ) IAT decrease which seems very unlikely considering they use the same filter housing and induction hardware or B ) increase in airflow.

So if there is no increase on the dyno, the pressure test must show that the two setups are very very similar if not identical.

You can easily see stock cars vary 5 to 10 whp run to run. How are you going to control the test to the level that you can identify a 1-3whp increase? Assuming that is what the elbow yields?

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

I don't even know why people bother commenting if they arent going to provide the data to make their comment worthwhile.

Please refer to post #35 where I said I'll post my dyno sheets.

If I spend ~$400 on a pulley (which I did) I want to see real gains not a pressure test gain. Another way of looking at this (i.e., remove the dyno comparison), is comparing my 1/4 times to another modded M3.

So, I had every bolt-on mod (excluding SC) and ran a 12.63 in the 1/4 mile (stock M3s were running 13 secs the same night). A friend of mine with full Akra, ESS tune and OEM wheels/tires (i.e., no filter, no pulley) ran a 12.435. We both had DCT, both used LC, were running side-by-side, disapr had skinny tires compared to mine.
For reference see: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...56&postcount=1 (see Tinpot and Disapr). On the 1/4 mile I had no advantage.

If we want to go back to the dyno, Disapr dyno'd 352 whp whereas I dyno'd 347 whp (I promise I'll post dyno sheets Before you ask, same dyno different days - sorry). Where's my horsepower advantage here? If you want to go back to using the margin of error or pressure test argument, then I conclude buying a ~$400 pulley is a waste of money for the so called gains. I had no advantage in the 1/4 mile and no advantage on the dyno.

[LarThaL]

Here's the problem with what you are doing:

You are trying to look for a 5-10hp gain on a 414hp car. You would have to test something like 50 otherwise completely stock M3's to give your results and kind of statistical validation.

Secondly, you really should include a test of filter only vs. full intake. Why? A filter alone is much cheaper than the full intake.

But like I said, you need a lot of runs for any kind of meaningful data for hp changes this small.

Good luck. I'll be curious nonetheless.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by VVG

Here's the problem with what you are doing:

You are trying to look for a 5-10hp gain on a 414hp car. You would have to test something like 50 otherwise completely stock M3's to give your results and kind of statistical validation.

Secondly, you really should include a test of filter only vs. full intake. Why? A filter alone is much cheaper than the full intake.

But like I said, you need a lot of runs for any kind of meaningful data for hp changes this small.

Good luck. I'll be curious nonetheless.

Im sure writing that and thinking that you were going to "teach me something" felt good when you wrote it.

- EAS claims 9-14 hp for the pulleys alone
- EAS claims 8-12 hp for the intake alone
- EAS in the below thread shows a 16whp gain from these two mods on their dyno
- the m3 makes closer to 330whp, not 414...we are not measuring crank numbers, and EAS has never measured these numbers in their dyno tests either
- the car already has an AA filter on it as mentioned in the op

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658354

The claimed HP is at most 26hp, and at the minimum, 16whp as they showed in their test. Their claim is that you can measure these gains on the dyno, and that is exactly what this test will show, whether or not that is true.

No idea where you got the 5-10 hp from.

The test is simple, same conditions, same temperatures, same dyno. The car will be run on the dyno until it establishes a solid, consistent baseline dyno reading...which it will, as has been shown by multiple dynos of individual cars. Then the parts will be installed and the car will be re-run under identical temperature conditions until it establishes a consistent baseline reading.

All readings will be posted and compared. EAS claims measureable power gains from this as per the dynos they show and power gains they claim.

This test will prove whether that is or isnt true.

Absolute numbers mean nothing. But if the parts make power, they will show gains on the dyno. Bottom line.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by tinpot

Please refer to post #35 where I said I'll post my dyno sheets.

If I spend ~$400 on a pulley (which I did) I want to see real gains not a pressure test gain. Another way of looking at this (i.e., remove the dyno comparison), is comparing my 1/4 times to another modded M3.

So, I had every bolt-on mod (excluding SC) and ran a 12.63 in the 1/4 mile (stock M3s were running 13 secs the same night). A friend of mine with full Akra, ESS tune and OEM wheels/tires (i.e., no filter, no pulley) ran a 12.435. We both had DCT, both used LC, were running side-by-side, disapr had skinny tires compared to mine.
For reference see: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...56&postcount=1 (see Tinpot and Disapr). On the 1/4 mile I had no advantage.

If we want to go back to the dyno, Disapr dyno'd 352 whp whereas I dyno'd 347 whp (I promise I'll post dyno sheets Before you ask, same dyno different days - sorry). Where's my horsepower advantage here? If you want to go back to using the margin of error or pressure test argument, then I conclude buying a ~$400 pulley is a waste of money for the so called gains. I had no advantage in the 1/4 mile and no advantage on the dyno.

You can't pressure test a pulley, I was talking about the intake.

You also can't compare different cars on different days.

You are talking about a tiny percentage of horsepower and a test with equal or more variables (1/4 mile) as a basis for comparison. I'm sorry but IMHO you simply are not testing scientifically.

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

You also can't compare different cars on different days.

You are talking about a tiny percentage of horsepower and a test with equal or more variables (1/4 mile) as a basis for comparison. I'm sorry but IMHO you simply are not testing scientifically.

I'm comparing my car on different days. The 1/4 mile comparison was used to illustrate I have no power gains despite having an MS filter and AA pulley.

I'm not sure what your definition of tiny is, but when AA's website claims their pulley makes 10 whp I expect to see an increase in power. My dyno sheets show no increase, my butt dyno felt no increase, and my 1/4 mile times show no increase.

I'm not posting in this thread to prove my testing techniques are superior to others. I'm posting to this thread to point out a performance part that advertises power gains should show some type of gain. If you need to prove to me that the part is making power by "scientific testing" the part in question is a waste of $400. I would have rather kept the $400 and bought a test tube kit for scientific experiments instead.

[///M Ryder]

Reserved

[iDRIFT]

cannot wait for this!!!!! can u pls dyno the intake by itself

[m3an]

Originally Posted by VVG

Here's the problem with what you are doing:

You are trying to look for a 5-10hp gain on a 414hp car. You would have to test something like 50 otherwise completely stock M3's to give your results and kind of statistical validation.

Secondly, you really should include a test of filter only vs. full intake. Why? A filter alone is much cheaper than the full intake.

But like I said, you need a lot of runs for any kind of meaningful data for hp changes this small.

Good luck. I'll be curious nonetheless.

wut??


dyno a stock car, 3x take a baseline, put parts on, find increase in power (if any), unstrap car. go home.

[VegasEgg]

Originally Posted by tinpot

To keep this post on topic, could you PM me dyno results showing a pully making power? I'm more than happy to say my results are a outlier if you can show me a pulley making power on an M3.

I got the MS pulleys installed yesterday and I gained 18whp & 10tq! The gains are thru out the entire powerband too...not just the top end! Same day, same dyno, same conditions...they never even unstrapped my car from the dyno, they installed the pulleys right there!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=659382

[Robmaster]

Originally Posted by Jrollsp

I got the MS pulleys installed yesterday and I gained 18whp & 10tq! The gains are thru out the entire powerband too...not just the top end! Same day, same dyno, same conditions...they never even unstrapped my car from the dyno, they installed the pulleys right there!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=659382

18hp with just the pulley??

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by Jrollsp

I got the MS pulleys installed yesterday and I gained 18whp & 10tq! The gains are thru out the entire powerband too...not just the top end! Same day, same dyno, same conditions...they never even unstrapped my car from the dyno, they installed the pulleys right there!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=659382

I'll admit, these are impressive gains However, other than EAS does anyone have an independent dyno of a pulley (any pulley!) making power? I'm fine with one car showing a power increase (I don't need to see 50 M3's in a sample, just one works with me ). If yes, I'll pickup an MS under drive pulley ASAP. If Kenny Powers test proves the MS Stg2 increases power, I'm in for an intake too. I'm not into the statistical crap others are posting; I just want to see real power gains before I buy

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by talontid

wut??


dyno a stock car, 3x take a baseline, put parts on, find increase in power (if any), unstrap car. go home.

This is all I'm looking for to prove a performance part makes power.... KISS!

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by tinpot

I'll admit, these are impressive gains However, other than EAS does anyone have an independent dyno of a pulley (any pulley!) making power? I'm fine with one car showing a power increase (I don't need to see 50 M3's in a sample, just one works with me ). If yes, I'll pickup an MS under drive pulley ASAP. If Kenny Powers test proves the MS Stg2 increases power, I'm in for an intake too. I'm not into the statistical crap others are posting; I just want to see real power gains before I buy

Originally Posted by tinpot

This is all I'm looking for to prove a performance part makes power.... KISS!

Boom, u hit the nail on the head.

No BS, no hype, nothing except for results from this test.

Hope they make power

[Black Gold]

UPDATE :

Scheduling this dyno has been a bit of a tough go, but looks like we have something lined up for a week from today.

I know the delay sucks, but with work and everything its the best I can do.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

You also can't compare different cars on different days.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The SAE dyno correction formula was invented just to make these corrections. It's been revised three times over the past 20 years. Some guy did some testing on it and found it extremely accurate when done within it's specifications. He said it began to get less accurate on forced induction...but that's another story.

When you say you can't compare same car on different days, you're talking about uncorrected results which is true. But that's why correction exists. No different than drag racing correction formulas for different tracks and different days.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by img

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The SAE dyno correction formula was invented just to make these corrections. It's been revised three times over the past 20 years. Some guy did some testing on it and found it extremely accurate when done within it's specifications. He said it began to get less accurate on forced induction...but that's another story.

When you say you can't compare same car on different days, you're talking about uncorrected results which is true. But that's why correction exists. No different than drag racing correction formulas for different tracks and different days.

good post

that issue doesnt apply to this test, as the car will be run on the same day

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by img

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The SAE dyno correction formula was invented just to make these corrections. It's been revised three times over the past 20 years. Some guy did some testing on it and found it extremely accurate when done within it's specifications. He said it began to get less accurate on forced induction...but that's another story.

When you say you can't compare same car on different days, you're talking about uncorrected results which is true. But that's why correction exists. No different than drag racing correction formulas for different tracks and different days.

I'm aware of that. He (not the OP, the other guy) hasn't posted his dynos, corrections factors, or any of the other relevant data that would make his statements credible. Even still, the correction factor is not perfect, as you know, and there are a myriad of other factors that can throw off the comparison. I just think that if you are going to say that someone's product doesn't add power, you better be able to back it up.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

UPDATE :

Scheduling this dyno has been a bit of a tough go, but looks like we have something lined up for a week from today.

I know the delay sucks, but with work and everything its the best I can do.

Let me know if you still need the BT interface. I can ship it out on Monday if needed. Will want it back after the testing is concluded.