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      08-19-2014, 12:13 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemdog View Post
Could be tenths. Some manuals are better than others, obviously-- it's annoying when they don't like to be "rushed" or power-shifted. I had a '96 Nissan Z that shifted like butter 'til you tried to hurry it, then it fought back. The DCT will do full-throttle shifts quickly enough that even my slickest manual shifts seem interrupted in comparison. Even so, I'm still annoyed that manuals are already being dropped from high-end sports cars.
This was the point I was trying to make regarding the ability to easily downshift multiple gears in the DCT, and why it's advantageous. I've driven manuals since I first got my license (over 20 years), and own a 6MT, so of course I know that you can downshift multiple gears. However, if you are on full throttle, it is very difficult to do so without slowing the shift down a lot, and in that time, the reason for wanting that extra power could be lost. I like to know that on the interstate, if I need to make a quick pass, I can concentrate on watching the gap in traffic and not on perfectly timing my shift. In a turbo car, I wouldn't care as much, since you get decent passing torque without downshifting a lot.
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      08-19-2014, 12:32 PM   #90
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I think this idea that seems to be perpetrated somewhat by manual purists that all "automatics" can be lumped together is just nonsense. That because torque converters wear out at 70k miles and need extensive maintance means DCTs will see the same (or because SMTs were unreliable, we'll see the same with DCTs). Similarly, I don't know what leads anyone to think that everything in converging toward one common "ultra" transmission, anymore than it's likely that everything converges toward a single motor type. I think this greatly underestimates the desire of companies to be both innovative and differentiated. I suspect CVTs, traditional torque converter autos, and DCTs will all have their places depending on both the engine type and market. They really don't all act the same, shift the same, mate exactly to engines the same, have the same reliability, etc.

I also don't get the rationale behind thinking that the DCT in the E9x is going to suddenly become outdated. The real innovation seems to be coming out with a good reliable DCT, but once that happens, the transmissions haven't progressed that much (look at VW, who has had a DCT for quite a while). You might see additional gears, but honestly once you get much past 6 gears, the difference is increasingly marginal, other than perhaps fuel mileage.
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      08-19-2014, 01:43 PM   #91
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Because the DCT is so much better than the SMG my bet is future resale vs 6MT will be very close unlike the E46 situation. Resale will be most impacted by mileage and condition on the E9xs.

Related thought - regardless of transmission low option cars will do better long term with less to break and less tech obsolescence (nav and Idrive).
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      08-19-2014, 01:46 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sered View Post
No they don't. There's so many 6MTs for sale right now in FL, it's not even funny. There's more MTs for sale right now on autotrader in Florida. Why? Because the DCT cars are getting picked up faster and the 6MT cars sit.
Incorrect. Overall DCTs are plentiful, MTs are rarer. You can't just look at one tiny market in Florida and extrapolate that across the entire continent of North America
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      08-19-2014, 02:10 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IB M View Post
Because the DCT is so much better than the SMG my bet is future resale vs 6MT will be very close unlike the E46 situation. Resale will be most impacted by mileage and condition on the E9xs.

Related thought - regardless of transmission low option cars will do better long term with less to break and less tech obsolescence (nav and Idrive).
It's good now, but you know eventually there'll be better versions of DCT (maybe more gears), or just quicker shifts (think regular PDK vs PDK in GT3). You just don't know. No one in their right mind would think that BMW's 6AT is as good or better as their 8AT (which is fantastic btw)

There'll obviously be a market for both. But IMHO, if BMW stop offering MT's in the future, I think the prices of MT cars will go up.

Just one example: 991 GT3 is only available with PDK. 997 GT3 value goes up tremendously. I know part of it is because the stopped using the legendary Mezger engine, but there are plenty of people choosing 997 over 991 because of transmission.

At the end of the day, who cares though. No one should buy these cars based on what resale value they have in the future. It's just stupid. Buy what you think is best for you, and understand why someone else might want to choose something different --> this part is not aimed at you, just a couple of clowns in this thread
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      08-19-2014, 02:22 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
At the end of the day, who cares though. No one should buy these cars based on what resale value they have in the future. It's just stupid. Buy what you think is best for you, and understand why someone else might want to choose something different --> this part is not aimed at you, just a couple of clowns in this thread
Well said, and something a few posters in this thread (like m3ray) need to take to heart.
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      08-19-2014, 03:03 PM   #95
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That is well said above - buy what you like and enjoy it now. There are no guarantees any of us will be here to worry about resale.

I own a 6MT btw.
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      08-19-2014, 03:11 PM   #96
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I struggle to think of a performance car that's >10 years old where the manual version doesn't command a premium over the automatic version, regardless of what type of automatic it is.

People who don't care about having the latest/greatest are generally in it for the driving experience more than the fastest, and of most of them (myself included) that means manual.

But, if you want DCT, I wouldn't let that dissuade you from getting a DCT car.
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      08-19-2014, 03:11 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I struggle to think of a performance car that's >10 years old where the manual version doesn't command a premium over the automatic version, regardless of what type of automatic it is..
For performance cars >10 years old, the manual was the better performing option. You are using a lot of words to say nothing of consequence.
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      08-19-2014, 03:17 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by modkrazy View Post
For performance cars >10 years old, the manual was the better performing option. You are using a lot of words to say nothing of consequence.
SMG 2 and SMG 3 both generated better performance numbers than their manual counterparts.

Similarly, PDK has generated better numbers than MT for years, as has ferrari's F1 trans. Every time manual is worth more (once past a certain age/no longer a "new" car).

And... I thought I was pretty concise.
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      08-19-2014, 05:50 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
SMG 2 and SMG 3 both generated better performance numbers than their manual counterparts.

Similarly, PDK has generated better numbers than MT for years, as has ferrari's F1 trans. Every time manual is worth more (once past a certain age/no longer a "new" car).
I think the better argument is that up until now, other forms of automatics have been somewhat flawed in regards to performance cars, whereas it's not clear if DCT will be viewed in the future as similarly flawed. Torque converter autos tend to break at 70k, and don't really have the peformance characteristics that are a good fit for performance cars. SMT variants have been more of a transitional transmission type, flawed with typically poor reliability and jerky shifts, and the market is somewhat abandoning them, so in another 5-10 years, it could be tough to find someone to work on them. So in both cases, it's not shocking collectors would avoid them vs manuals.

Conversely, the performance market seems to be moving toward DCTs. PDK is now coming on strong for Porsche, I think the R8 just moved to DCT, Ferrari seems to be fully adopting DCTs, Lamborghini is going in that direction. The only notable exceptions seem to be MB and the Corvette (though rumors of a DCT for that persist). I think it's also grasping at straws a bit that there will be radical improvements making this DCT less desireable. The current E9x M3 DCT already has very fast shifts, and adding another gear wouldn't change things much other than maybe improving MPG. Not saying it's perfect by any stretch (I still find the auto 'D' modes leave a lot to be desired), but improvements are likely to be evolutionary. In fact, I think BMW has actually dumbed down the DCT in the M5 (not sure about the F80), where we get 11 total modes, and I think that one only has 6.

Will the DCT follow past patterns? Who knows, but I think the arguments that it won't are as compelling as that it will.
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      08-19-2014, 06:52 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
I think the better argument is that up until now, other forms of automatics have been somewhat flawed in regards to performance cars, whereas it's not clear if DCT will be viewed in the future as similarly flawed. Torque converter autos tend to break at 70k, and don't really have the peformance characteristics that are a good fit for performance cars. SMT variants have been more of a transitional transmission type, flawed with typically poor reliability and jerky shifts, and the market is somewhat abandoning them, so in another 5-10 years, it could be tough to find someone to work on them. So in both cases, it's not shocking collectors would avoid them vs manuals.

Conversely, the performance market seems to be moving toward DCTs. PDK is now coming on strong for Porsche, I think the R8 just moved to DCT, Ferrari seems to be fully adopting DCTs, Lamborghini is going in that direction. The only notable exceptions seem to be MB and the Corvette (though rumors of a DCT for that persist). I think it's also grasping at straws a bit that there will be radical improvements making this DCT less desireable. The current E9x M3 DCT already has very fast shifts, and adding another gear wouldn't change things much other than maybe improving MPG. Not saying it's perfect by any stretch (I still find the auto 'D' modes leave a lot to be desired), but improvements are likely to be evolutionary. In fact, I think BMW has actually dumbed down the DCT in the M5 (not sure about the F80), where we get 11 total modes, and I think that one only has 6.

Will the DCT follow past patterns? Who knows, but I think the arguments that it won't are as compelling as that it will.
Time will tell. There are fewer manual options on the used market (because so many performance cars are coming in automatic now), as you point out, which in turn drives up the price on anything with a manual.

I don't know if decreasing the number of modes is dumbing it down so much as that many were useless before.

FYI, Lamborghini is actually moving back to a single clutch system because they say the DCT is too boring/torque convertor automatic like.
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      08-19-2014, 07:53 PM   #101
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Obioban, you keep popping up here every few months I feel like. I remember you were a great resource for me when I bought my e46M. You bought one of these things yet?
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      08-19-2014, 08:15 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupes View Post
Obioban, you keep popping up here every few months I feel like. I remember you were a great resource for me when I bought my e46M. You bought one of these things yet?
I have not. I was considering one as a comfort cruiser to go with the e46, but ended up getting a deal on an immaculate M5 that I couldn't pass up.

But, before the year is over my e46 will have >stock S65 power at every rpm (NA) and less than stock e36 M3 weight (with full interior/practicality).

Down the road I could see swapping the M5 for an e90 M3... maybe. The M5 is more different than the e46, so kind of makes a better compliment car.

We did get my wife an e91 (in rwd/manual), so I get my e9X fill that way. Been slowly transitioning it to M3 parts (bushings, control arms, etc-- not engine (going to do headers/disa/tune, for 285-300 crank hp and call it done)).
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      08-19-2014, 08:35 PM   #103
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Cool! Grats on the M5. Like you said, totally different car to compliment the E46.
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      08-19-2014, 09:53 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3-S65 View Post
Actually I like both transmissions, I have commented that I do. So once again your wrong...

Troll? The DCT and MT topic is the most highly debated and "harped on" topic on this forum with some very strong opinions coming from both camps. My opinion was simply developed based on all the negative feedback I read from the MT crowd regarding the DCT....so if I am trolling then 50% of this forum is trolling...

What is it with you? if someone doesn't agree with you, you immediately become hostile ....calling them a "troll", and stating their opinion is "ridiculous" .... If you don't like my opinion
( because it does not agree with your superior opinion) I would suggest not coming on a forum, because forums are filled with opinions....
Why don't you contact C&D to inform them that you are right about which tranny moves the car the fastest? Many of us here would enjoy reading any response you get from C&D. Suggested reading: What's below; especially the really big font stuff.

Quote:

2008 BMW M3 With M DCT Double Clutch Transmission

The rapid-shifting, seven-speed automated manual is as quick as, but no quicker than, the base six-speed.

Could this be the beginning of the end for the manual transmission? BMW’s seven-speed, double-clutch automated manual transmission is now available in the M3. This gearbox shifts quicker than is possible with a manual and also has a livable, smooth-shifting automatic mode.

You likely already know we love BMW’s latest incarnation of its marvelous M3, this time with a mammoth 414-hp V-8. As displayed by its ferocious test numbers and three comparison-test victories, it’s simply one of the most fun and involving cars currently on sale.

But until now, all the cars we’ve driven have been equipped with a six-speed manual as we’ve waited for the brand-new seven-speed, double-clutch automated manual developed with Getrag to arrive. (BMW calls it M DCT, for “M Double-Clutch Transmission with Drivelogic.”)

First Double-Clutch Transmission That Can Handle 9000 RPM

Available as a $2700 option on all M3 coupes, sedans, and convertibles, M DCT is the first double-clutch transmission that can handle engine speeds up to—thank you, BMW —a screaming 9000 rpm. M DCT adds about 45 pounds, according to BMW; our 3630-pound test car weighed in 30 pounds heavier than our last manual M3 coupe.

The M DCT uses two oil-cooled, wet multi-disc clutches and operates much like other transmissions of this type, such as VW/Audi’s DSG/S tronic. One clutch engages the even gears, and the other handles the odds plus reverse. Since only one clutch is engaged at any given time, the transmission anticipates and preselects the next ratio; a gearchange simply requires one clutch to release while the other engages, which means the M DCT can shift quicker than a manual transmission, and it drastically reduces the power interruption between gears. Overall, first gear with M DCT is actually slightly taller than in the manual, but the rest of the ratios are shorter.

The double-clutch arrangement also enables quicker and smoother shifting than in single-clutch automated manuals, such as BMW’s own sequential manual gearbox (SMG) found in the previous M3 and the current M5 and M6. If you’ve ever driven an SMG car, you know what we’re talking about. Even with various iterations and improvements, the current seven-speed unit found in the M5 and M6 leaves large, head-bobbing gaps in power between shifts, rendering it somewhere between annoying and unusable in full-automatic mode.

As with SMG, M DCT has a staggering 11 settings—five in automatic (D mode) and six in manual (S mode)—that determine how aggressive the shifts are, with the most brutal manual setting only available with the stability control off. A setting of four or higher means satisfying throttle blips accompany downshifts; settings one through three yield nearly imperceptible gearchanges. Manual shifting is accomplished via steering-wheel-mounted paddles (right for upshifts, left for downshifts) or the shift lever on the center console.
Thankfully Blessed with Superb Launch Control

In case you ever get your hands on an M3 equipped with M DCT, you need to know how to experience one of the best features: launch control. Omitted from U.S. versions of the M5 and M6, launch control is thankfully now included in the M3.

With stability control switched off and the transmission in the most aggressive setting, simply push and hold the shift lever forward and a checkered flag appears in the dash display to let you know you’re in launch-control mode. At that point, flat-foot the throttle, and the revs rise and hold. Using the cruise-control stalk, that rpm hold point can be adjusted between 4600 and 6100 rpm to tailor the launch to the particular surface. With your foot still flat on the floor, let go of the shift lever, and it executes a perfect clutch-dump launch every time. In this mode it also upshifts automatically through the first five gears.

One caveat: M DCT won’t allow multiple, successive launches in this manner. During our runs, it required three-to-five-mile cool-down runs before allowing another attempt.

But Is It Quicker?

After scouring the test results for some useful conclusion, the answer is “not really.” The M DCT car hit 60 mph in 4.3 seconds, cleared the quarter-mile in 12.7 at 113 mph, and achieved 150 mph in 26 seconds flat. Compare that to the six-speed manual’s numbers of 4.3, 12.8 at 113, and 24.3, respectively. If you zoom in even closer and look at each 10-mph increment, the two cars trade off which is quicker until 120 mph, when the manual starts pulling away.


Still No Replacement for the Manual

M DCT is no doubt a technical marvel, but we don’t yet prefer it to a traditional manual.

First off, the throttle response from a standstill is annoyingly lazy. Most times we found ourselves pushing the pedal about halfway down just to get a reasonable response. When attempting to merge into busy traffic, we often used so much pedal as to hit the kickdown switch on the floorboard to get the M3 moving. And then once the clutch finally engages, you get too much acceleration and, often, wheelspin. This slow clutch engagement is disconcerting, and we all agree that it’s far quicker and easier to get a swift, predictable step-off in the manual version.

Second, when you accelerate hard, there’s a fair amount of lag between the time you pull the shift paddle and when it actually upshifts. On an aggressive shift from first to second, you have to shift around 7200 rpm—nearly 1000 rpm early—to effect the gearchange before the engine hits the 8400-rpm limiter. We never had this issue with SMG in the M5 or M6, and after hitting the limiter multiple times, we yearned for the manual. And when M DCT finally does shift, it often slams into gear so violently it upsets the car.

We found the downshifts to be quicker and more acceptable, although in automatic mode, wide-open-throttle two-lane passing maneuvers at 55 to 60 mph (a seven-to-two downshift) seemed no quicker than in a traditional automatic.

However, the taller seventh gear does allow the engine to run about 200 rpm lower than sixth gear in the manual, which could marginally improve real-world highway fuel-economy numbers. In Europe, the double-clutch M3 gets slightly better fuel-economy figures, but U.S. EPA ratings remain at 14 mpg city and 20 mpg highway for either transmission. However, automatics generally get worse fuel economy, so parity isn’t necessarily a bad thing. We saw 20 to 21 mpg on a relatively flat, couple-hour highway slog.

For sure, the automatic mode—other than the lazy clutch engagement on step-off—is much improved over the SMG and now perfectly acceptable. Keep it in one of the less aggressive settings, and the shifts are so smooth you might miss them unless you’re paying close attention. And unfortunately, there’s a strong demand for automatics in high-performance sports cars. But—other than the launch control feature—we think it’s far easier and more satisfying to exploit the M3’s excellent dynamics with a traditional manual, which was not necessarily what we expected.

VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 4-passenger, 2-door coupe
PRICE AS TESTED: $69,425 (base price: $61,325)
ENGINE TYPE: DOHC 32-valve V-8, aluminum block and heads, port fuel injection
Displacement: 244 cu in, 3999cc
Power (SAE net): 414 bhp @ 8300 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 295 lb-ft @ 3900 rpm
TRANSMISSION: 7-speed manual with automated shifting and clutch
DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 108.7 in Length: 181.8 in Width: 71.0 in Height: 55.8 in Curb weight: 3630 lb
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 9.9 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 26.0 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 4.9 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.7 sec @ 113 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 161 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g
FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 14/20 mpg

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test
Bottom line: The DCT shifts need to be even quicker than they are to keep pace with the MT version on the autobahn.
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      08-19-2014, 10:38 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
I think the better argument is that up until now, other forms of automatics have been somewhat flawed in regards to performance cars, whereas it's not clear if DCT will be viewed in the future as similarly flawed. Torque converter autos tend to break at 70k, and don't really have the peformance characteristics that are a good fit for performance cars. SMT variants have been more of a transitional transmission type, flawed with typically poor reliability and jerky shifts, and the market is somewhat abandoning them, so in another 5-10 years, it could be tough to find someone to work on them. So in both cases, it's not shocking collectors would avoid them vs manuals.

Conversely, the performance market seems to be moving toward DCTs. PDK is now coming on strong for Porsche, I think the R8 just moved to DCT, Ferrari seems to be fully adopting DCTs, Lamborghini is going in that direction. The only notable exceptions seem to be MB and the Corvette (though rumors of a DCT for that persist). I think it's also grasping at straws a bit that there will be radical improvements making this DCT less desireable. The current E9x M3 DCT already has very fast shifts, and adding another gear wouldn't change things much other than maybe improving MPG. Not saying it's perfect by any stretch (I still find the auto 'D' modes leave a lot to be desired), but improvements are likely to be evolutionary. In fact, I think BMW has actually dumbed down the DCT in the M5 (not sure about the F80), where we get 11 total modes, and I think that one only has 6.

Will the DCT follow past patterns? Who knows, but I think the arguments that it won't are as compelling as that it will.
There's just no way to know. I find it hard to believe that DCT will not get better over time. As a matter of fact, I also believe that AT trans will get so good that DCT will probably be obsolete. So I really wouldn't be surprised if future M5's come with AT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Time will tell. There are fewer manual options on the used market (because so many performance cars are coming in automatic now), as you point out, which in turn drives up the price on anything with a manual.

I don't know if decreasing the number of modes is dumbing it down so much as that many were useless before.

FYI, Lamborghini is actually moving back to a single clutch system because they say the DCT is too boring/torque convertor automatic like.
FYI, while the Aventador is single clutch, Huracan is dual clutch.
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      08-19-2014, 10:45 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post
Why don't you contact C&D to inform them that you are right about which tranny moves the car the fastest? Many of us here would enjoy reading any response you get from C&D. Suggested reading: What's below; especially the really big font stuff.



Bottom line: The DCT shifts need to be even quicker than they are to keep pace with the MT version on the autobahn.
Didn't the 2011 M3 tested by C/D get faster times than the 2008 M3 they reviewed in that article?
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      08-20-2014, 03:40 AM   #107
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Surely the E9x M3 new car sales numbers represent the desirability of each transmission on a per country basis. So in the USA its a what? 1:2 split MT-DCT?
Unless for some reason that desirability changes in the future then the resale value of an MT and a DCT will remain fairly even. High optioned cars will always tend to be more desirable and far easier to sell but only return a fraction of the extra original cost of the options.
Being rare doesn't necessarily make it desirable - only 1 in 10 E9x M3s in the UK are MT but still fetch far less second hand than a similar DCT car.
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      08-20-2014, 05:19 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
Makes no difference. I've been through two of them and they're both the same. Like someone else said, this car forces you to pay attention while driving the 6MT and the driver just naturally adjusts to it. 1st to 2nd is notchy and the clutch in this car has little to no feedback for the driver. After 4 years of driving my car I still can't consistantly get a smooth take off out of 1st. Hopefully the next M3/4 manual will address this.
I beg to differ. My 6MT is very engaging and consistent in feel. Every time. I have zero problems ever out of 1st or 1st to 2nd. Perhaps the problem isn't the transmission. Or it is vehicle specific. I guess I am lucky or good.
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      08-20-2014, 06:40 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
FYI, while the Aventador is single clutch, Huracan is dual clutch.
Yeah, but they stated they're going to be going back to single clutch based systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
High optioned cars will always tend to be more desirable and far easier to sell but only return a fraction of the extra original cost of the options.
That's just untrue with performance cars. For example, with M3s:
The most valuable e36 M3s (assuming equal condition, non special editions) are cars without luxury package, without automatic trans, and without sunroof.
The most valuable e46 M3s (assuming equal condition, non special editions) are cars without SMG, without sunroof, without power seats (which is actually dumb, imo, as power only adds 2 lbs per seat).

Perhaps the most extreme example is convertible-- $5000-10,000 "option" when new, worth significantly less down the road. An automatic e36 M3 vert is worth half what a manual e36 M3 coupe/sedan is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Being rare doesn't necessarily make it desirable - only 1 in 10 E9x M3s in the UK are MT but still fetch far less second hand than a similar DCT car.
For now. I don't think anyone is arguing that they're currently more valuable, we're talking about in the next 5-10 years (and beyond). That said, I don't really follow the UK or know what their market is-- it may not happen over there as it will (and has on previous generation cars) here.
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      08-20-2014, 07:08 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants
Surely the E9x M3 new car sales numbers represent the desirability of each transmission on a per country basis. So in the USA its a what? 1:2 split MT-DCT?
Just some food for thought. Both of my local BMW dealerships do not have a single manual transmission car on their lot. This includes M cars. Hell, I think there's only a coupe 3 series even that offer RWD instead of AWD. If I wanted a new M3/4 I could wait for months to get a manual made for me, or I could leave today with a DCT car.

I don't think most new BMW drivers are the enthusiasts that we represent on these message boards. They buy for vanity, newness, convenience and yes, sportiness (I'm generalizing here).

My point being - you can't say more people choose a DCT car because it's not really presented as much of an option anymore unless you're willing to wait. Dealerships are making safe bets and are buying autos/DCT's in much greater numbers. With that in mind, it's a miracle so many people (1:2 ratio as you said) were willing to wait for a 6SPD to be made for them! I bet even those that prefer a 6MT would be happy with a DCT, so that's what they end up buying out of convenience. The used car market is a different animal though. Often, these people have dreamed up a vision of the perfect M3 and are seeking it out.

That all being said, I don't see a huge difference between DCT and 6SPD values in the future because each used buyer will have their own preferences.
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