Blown engine

[MSY]

Headers, race fuel and cams will make you nice power

[C-los]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I wonder how much cooler the secondary position is than the primary. That gas is moving pretty fast. Hard to imagine it has time to lose that much heat...

... unless part of it is also the gas expanding, cooling it.

It's not just the exhaust gas, but the piping itself under the vehicle is cooler. Think of it as, (and granted this is an exaggerated example) You can't tough headers or the down pipe without burning the hell out of yourself, but you can touch the middle up to the tips. In relativity, the couple of degrees matter to the longevity of the components more that we feel. i hope that makes sense... I'm sure gas expansion (which also causes a cooling effect) among other things all accumulate together.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I think it was excess heat. Enough heat will kill anything.

It's a shame because the Xpipe had been used in the E92 for multiple years and I only had it on the E90 for a single event, then it died. I checked them while swapping and the cats looked fine.

Well, without looking at them myself, or knowing as to how well you looked at them and perception of "looks fine"... My concern would be, they were great on the E92, but then all of a sudden took a crap on the E90.
It "sounds" like it maybe a different running issue that cratered the cat.

[MSY]

Cats near the engine as n headers are quite a bit hotter since th et y ars so damn close to the engine hence why modern cars are usually even closer to engine. We so so lucked out that the e9x m3 ouy cats after the headers and made removing them a breeze. The e60 m5 had cats integrated into headers for faster warming and cold start emissions. While not at all cool to the touch, the re asr cats are hot but not as hot.

As far as why they broke on the dyno, the dyno is the ultimate torcher for a car. No airflow, hard pulls and tuning on one takes a ton of pulls. OP also said the car had been running poorly for awhile with the xpipe so surely they were on their way out, then unbolted and maybe jarred around a bit which could have further loosened substrate material. Then the nail in the coffin was dyno time. Makes sense

[C-los]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Wouldn't excess unburned fuel cool the cat?

E.g. when the EGT sensor detects the exhaust gas is getting too hot, the ECU causes the car to run richer, to cool the cats and extend their life.

I knew i forgot to quote/answer one more.

The idea/term of Richer = cooler is a double edge. EGT's can be brought down by enriching the mixture (since the fuel helps absorb the cylinder heat, but after a while, it will actually bring the EGT's back UP/Hotter again (due to afterburn). So there's a fine line regarding using fuel to "cool".

Also, remember, running rich, causing excess fuel to come out of the exhaust is fine up to a point. Going back to overly hot EGT, and a Hot exhaust pipe and Really Hot Catalytic converters, can and eventually will cause that un-burned fuel to ignite somewhere down the line. Now think of a Blazing hot honeycomb catching all that un-burned fuel in between all the holes and crevices and then igniting. BOOM, fractured, melted and destroyed cats.

Think of 'Burble' Tunes and such, they just make excess fuel dump into the exhaust, and the popping is that fuel after burning.

That's why rotary engines especially are EVIL to catalytic converters.. (think giant flame coming out of the exhaust during heavy pulls.. I've seen perfectly good cats get destroyed just during a de-flood procedure because of ALL the fuel that gets dumped into the exhaust because people are either too lazy to remove the plugs and/or disable the fuel pump so you don't keep dumping more fuel to get the excess fuel out

[Bemo]

Reading this thread sucks
Hang in there guys...suppose the price to pay for tracking the car extensively. Stuff will go wrong given the increased demands that are placed on the vehicle.
I'm surprised you took out a GT3RS with a Weissach package during your last event. Obviously you're an extremely capable driver and the other must have sucked big time. Pound for pound, the 2 cars are not even in the same universe!
It would have been fascinating if you could have swapped cars to see how badly you take yourself out in terms of lap times...

[bigjae1976]

That sucks...at least it wasn't the Monte Carlo Blue E92!

Have you considered the failure mode of the car being due to vibration?

[EDIT] What ECU map were you running? I've seen too many E9X and turbo'd BMWs go into limp mode at the track. Its like clock work...driver goes home by 2nd or 3rd session on Sun if their lucky. It took until about 2010 for tuners to really figure out the MSS54. My gut feeling is we're still a couple of years away for the MSS65. [/EDIT]

I've pulled many S54s apart and all of the mains have the same wear which is very little. I'd be interested to know if the mains are just an inherent issue to the V8 design. Or if its another BMW M division bearing foopa.

The silver lining is you can recover a surprising amount of money by parting out the old motor. I paid $2500 for my S54 (local pickup) and I ended up making money by selling off the old parts. Not sure that is the case for the S65 but it lessens the pain.

If you want to install a BW dipstick, I'd be willing to TIG weld in the bung for you. Just supply the pan and the parts and ship them. Labor is free...I'm going to be learning TIG welding later this month. I'll have an expert with me so it will be good...might not be the prettiest stack of dimes ever.

Originally Posted by admranger

Sorry to hear about this.

If the pistons/rods are shot, I need a paperweight for my desk. Crank might be a bit large for a paperweight, but I could use it to motivate some coworkers!

Best of luck on whatever you decide to do. I'm actually quite stunned no one said "LS7"...lol

I sold a bad S54 crank to a guy on Bimmerforums that made a lamp out of it. Not sure if I saved the pic but it was pretty awesome!

OP...You should swap in an LS7.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bemo

Reading this thread sucks
Hang in there guys...suppose the price to pay for tracking the car extensively. Stuff will go wrong given the increased demands that are placed on the vehicle.
I'm surprised you took out a GT3RS with a Weissach package during your last event. Obviously you're an extremely capable driver and the other must have sucked big time. Pound for pound, the 2 cars are not even in the same universe!
It would have been fascinating if you could have swapped cars to see how badly you take yourself out in terms of lap times...

At the DE level, there’s not a ton of corellation between car speed and lap times— very much driver based.

[inTgr8r]

Wow... how did I miss this thread!!

Not much to add that hasn't already been posted but,
So sorry to hear about this issue, that really sucks.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

That sucks...at least it wasn't the Monte Carlo Blue E92!

Have you considered the failure mode of the car being due to vibration?

[EDIT] What ECU map were you running? I've seen too many E9X and turbo'd BMWs go into limp mode at the track. Its like clock work...driver goes home by 2nd or 3rd session on Sun if their lucky. It took until about 2010 for tuners to really figure out the MSS54. My gut feeling is we're still a couple of years away for the MSS65. [/EDIT]

I've pulled many S54s apart and all of the mains have the same wear which is very little. I'd be interested to know if the mains are just an inherent issue to the V8 design. Or if its another BMW M division bearing foopa.

The silver lining is you can recover a surprising amount of money by parting out the old motor. I paid $2500 for my S54 (local pickup) and I ended up making money by selling off the old parts. Not sure that is the case for the S65 but it lessens the pain.

If you want to install a BW dipstick, I'd be willing to TIG weld in the bung for you. Just supply the pan and the parts and ship them. Labor is free...I'm going to be learning TIG welding later this month. I'll have an expert with me so it will be good...might not be the prettiest stack of dimes ever.



I sold a bad S54 crank to a guy on Bimmerforums that made a lamp out of it. Not sure if I saved the pic but it was pretty awesome!

OP...You should swap in an LS7.

I am also very, very happy it was not the Montecarlo Blue M3.

Mains seem to be an issue on the S65 but it's a very rare issue. We see some failures here and there on the forum but it isn't widespread.

In my case I'm pretty convinced it was because of the cat failure which caused the engine to run very unbalanced. I felt it was 'breaking' the engine but the two first mechanics said it the increased oil consumption and smoking was blowby and I could use the car without issues.

No LS7s for me. I firmly believe I would blow any other engine up much faster than the S65.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Bemo

Reading this thread sucks
Hang in there guys...suppose the price to pay for tracking the car extensively. Stuff will go wrong given the increased demands that are placed on the vehicle.
I'm surprised you took out a GT3RS with a Weissach package during your last event. Obviously you're an extremely capable driver and the other must have sucked big time. Pound for pound, the 2 cars are not even in the same universe!
It would have been fascinating if you could have swapped cars to see how badly you take yourself out in terms of lap times...

It isn't hard. If the guy hadn't been a instructor with '30 years of racing experience' it wouldn't even have been close.
Turns out the guy had an E92 before his 991 GT3 and then his 991 GT3 RS and did not believe we were driving an E9X M3. He actually came to see it afterwards ha.

When it comes to track driving people have to stop buying expensive cars and just learn how to drive whatever car they have well.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If the guy hadn't been a instructor with '30 years of racing experience' it wouldn't even have been close.

I've got over 30 years of racing experience. I've watched a lot of races on TV to get it.

Piss poor drivers race too. I used to be one of those.

[Longboarder]

Wow sorry to hear and thanks for the post so others can learn.

I have a budget track setup on my new (to me) 2012 e92. When at MRF getting the brakes and alignment setup a few months ago, Malek kept telling me to ditch the stock x pipe because tracking can cause massive heat to the primary cats which if damaged, can potentially cause damage the motor.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Wow sorry to hear and thanks for the post so others can learn.

I have a budget track setup on my new (to me) 2012 e92. When at MRF getting the brakes and alignment setup a few months ago, Malek kept telling me to ditch the stock x pipe because tracking can cause massive heat to the primary cats which if damaged, can potentially cause damage the motor.

Haha yes I have seen your 'budget build'

Lots of things to learn here, primarily do not track with either the stock xpipe or an aftermarket xpipe with cats in the primary position

[inTgr8r]

maybe related to this....
I have the AFe with CATs in primary.

Last week I went into limp mode with misfires and bank 1 lambda codes.
Had a look under the car today and the exhaust is blue past the primary CAT position.

I'm wondering if the excessive heat took out the lambda sensor.

I do have a CATless setup on the shelf, I think that will be going back on the car.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

maybe related to this....
I have the AFe with CATs in primary.

Last week I went into limp mode with misfires and bank 1 lambda codes.
Had a look under the car today and the exhaust is blue past the primary CAT position.

I'm wondering if the excessive heat took out the lambda sensor.

I do have a CATless setup on the shelf, I think that will be going back on the car.

I have the full list of codes and yeah, bank 1 misfires and lots of lambda control errors

Curious to see what your cat looks like inside

Based on this experience we shouldn't be tracking with cats in the primary position at all

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I wonder how much cooler the secondary position is than the primary. That gas is moving pretty fast. Hard to imagine it has time to lose that much heat...

... unless part of it is also the gas expanding, cooling it.

When you see those epic videos of the s65 full blast on engine dynos you can see the headers get bright red but the intensity drops very, very quickly.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I have the full list of codes and yeah, bank 1 misfires and lots of lambda control errors

Curious to see what your cat looks like inside

Based on this experience we shouldn't be tracking with cats in the primary position at all

No pics, but exhaust is off and CATs look fine.

i'm thinking that maybe yours was an extreme example especially given the double duty.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

No pics, but exhaust is off and CATs look fine.

i'm thinking that maybe yours was an extreme example especially given the double duty.

I'm glad your car is fine!

I'm sure our use case is quite rare so it's likely others would have been fine without this.

I'd still consider it's a 'best practice' to not track with cats

[MSY]

Syt you have 2 m3s, why did you double duty one car? I think your use is extreme for the car. I used to not even like doing a session with only 30 min break for a track day. Unless uts stripped out wnd carrying 600 less pounds then yes i think your case is relatively rare yet id still not run primary cats in a track car after your experience.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MSY

Syt you have 2 m3s, why did you double duty one car? I think your use is extreme for the car. I used to not even like doing a session with only 30 min break for a track day. Unless uts stripped out wnd carrying 600 less pounds then yes i think your case is relatively rare yet id still not run primary cats in a track car after your experience.

There are multiple reasons

-The E92 is an individual (montecarlo blue) car I bought new in 2013. I plan on driving that car until gasoline becomes illegal to use.
-Tracks are far from us. Typically we'll finish a work day at ~6pm and then drive 4 (closest) to 10 (furthest) hours, so I much prefer to have a co-driver
-Highly modded cars are a pain to drive on the street. I like having a stockish M3 to drive around

Before the engine going kaboom we expected to buy a third E9X M3 for winter duty and light track use but still expected to double up on the current track car

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

There are multiple reasons

-The E92 is an individual (montecarlo blue) car I bought new in 2013. I plan on driving that car until gasoline becomes illegal to use.
-Tracks are far from us. Typically we'll finish a work day at ~6pm and then drive 4 (closest) to 10 (furthest) hours, so I much prefer to have a co-driver
-Highly modded cars are a pain to drive on the street. I like having a stockish M3 to drive around

Before the engine going kaboom we expected to buy a third E9X M3 for winter duty and light track use but still expected to double up on the current track car

This makes complete sense. It's too bad though, because everybody knows blue is the fastest color .

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

This makes complete sense. It's too bad though, because everybody knows blue is the fastest color .

The MCB car looks beautiful on the track with the CF goodies