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06-17-2018, 06:01 PM | #1 |
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Advice for new intermediate students
Hello all,
This weekend had a lot of firsts for me, and I truly could not be more pleased with the results. First off, it was the exact one year anniversary of tracking my beloved E90. It was also my first track event that started me in the intermediate group, it was the first time I turned off DSC at the track (technically this is true, no need to bore you guys with the long back story on this one), it was the first time I timed my laps, and it was the first time I successfully crammed 4 wheels in my car (lol). The purpose of this thread is to ask all of you advanced students, instructors, or race car drivers for advice… but first - please allow me to share the triumphs of my weekend with all of you. I think it's a pretty awesome story As I mentioned, this was the first HPDE that I was placed in intermediate run group. When I started exactly one year ago at this same event, but in 2017, I set a goal to be an intermediate student by the end of one year. I achieved my goal. I had a two part goal for this track weekend - to turn off DSC, and after that, to start to focus on getting faster. After my first sort of warm up session on Sunday, I turned off DSC for good. This was with the blessing of my instructor, who I made sure was comfortable with my decision to do this. He was a little nervous at first, understandably, but was instantly relieved when I told him I had done a wet skid pad event. Most instructors I know think that is a very valuable car control experience for HPDE drivers. Now for the really cool part. After turning nannies off, I shaved 10 seconds off my lap, for a weekend best of 1:31. That’s not a horrible time! To put it in perspective, some A group students were running 1:29s and were happy with it. Some of the racers were running 1:25s and were happy with it. My instructor was very proud of me, as well as all of my ATL crew. I made sure to thank my friend who is the lead instructor for Peachtree BMWCCA, who was responsible for placing me in B group. He put me in this group after reading my instructor evals from last year, and without him, I wouldn’t have had the chance to excel like I did. I obviously thanked my instructor, probably 20+ times after my last run when I nailed that 1:31. This whole experience will keep me smiling all week long (at least) at work Anyone who knows me at all knows I have a serious goal with all of this that I am doing. I want to be a race car driver. Not for a living or anything, just for the fun of it. So, constant improvement is necessary in my opinion. Hence the reason for this thread. Any of you who are more experienced than I am - can you please give me advice from your experience that relates to the transition from novice to intermediate, whether it is car related or driver related. Thank you in advance Some pics from the weekend: |
06-17-2018, 06:09 PM | #2 |
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GEt a set of tire wraps from tirerack to put on your dirty tires before putting them in your car
Good luck with your driving.
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06-17-2018, 06:14 PM | #3 |
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06-17-2018, 06:41 PM | #4 |
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Congrats in your progress! Advanced student here with same goal to progress into Club Racing by next summer.
Couple things I would recommend are: - If you haven’t already, check out any of the Speed Secrets books by Ross Bentley and his weekly podcasts. - Begin logging tire pressure/temperature and suspension settings relative to weather and lap times. - Invest in seat time at the track and skid pad. Don’t worry about go-fast mods. - Install proper safety equipment. Roll bar, seats, belts and HANS. Doing so will give you more confidence and keep you and your instructor safe. Hope this helps!
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2013 E92 M3 Competition 6MT Slick Top | AW / Fox Red | 2006 E86 M Coupe | Silver Gray / Imola | JRZ RSTWO | APR Aero | Sparco Seats/Belts | Weichers Cage Gone: 2017 Audi Q7 | 2011 E93 328i 6MT | 2014 Audi A6 | 2010 VW CC 2.0T | 2011 G37 S Coupe 6MT | 2004 G35 Coupe | SW20 MR2 Widebody Turbo |
06-17-2018, 07:05 PM | #5 |
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06-17-2018, 07:16 PM | #6 | |
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Ross Bentley is amazing, I really need to check out his podcasts. Also, that is very smart to keep a log of the things you mentioned. I have an awesome ///M journal book that I won as a part of a raffle last summer, I have been thinking about turning it into my track journal. Great place to jot down stuff like that. I have no plans to mod for extra power in the near future. I have been thinking a lot about safety upgrades recently. Thank you again! Every person who has helped me along the way has contributed to my success so far. For this, I am very thankful |
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06-17-2018, 07:24 PM | #7 | |
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You can put in the roll bar to make your car safer at the track (assuming you put in track seats and harnesses), but it'll be at the expense of safety on the street. Don't believe me? Hit your head against a steel pipe with and without a helmet on. You can and will contact the roll bar in a crash. No question. Soft foam insulation is insufficient to protect you. You need to install the harder padding (feels like no padding at all until you smack it in a crash). OP: Setting goals is important, but I'd suggest you focus more on tangible driving skill goals, not getting to the next run group. Your run group doesn't define you, your driving skill does. Azeka1 has sound advice about reading Ross Bentley and investing in the driver. The seat to steering wheel interface is the weakest link in the chain. Logging tire pressures, and other setup info is a good habit to get into, as well as writing notes about the track on a track map. Turn in points, visual references, what gear you're in, where you start braking, etc. are all things to put on that map.
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06-17-2018, 07:26 PM | #8 |
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At the 1-yr mark, I bought a track prepped E46 M3. It had 1/2 cage, harness, seat, decent brakes and suspension. I also bought a HANS pretty soon after. It was street legal and I towed a little tire trailer with it to and from track.
I don't necessarily think that you need to buy another car, but I was going to have to start investing money in my E92 to keep tires from cording, plus I started getting nervous about pushing the limits in my DD. I stayed in instructed run groups for about another year. But I had a SoloDL and a GoPro and I was reviewing my data and sharing files with friends. My point is that don't rush to go solo. Get as much instruction as possible. Not all instructors are fast drivers nor are they all good at meeting you where you're at and improving your driving, but most are and I learned a ton. Intermediate is about improving your driving but it's also about improving your situational awareness - seeing all of the flag stations, looking through corners, recognizing faster cars coming behind you and working to make and give good passes. Lap times are secondary, although they will naturally improve. Don't rush to add go fast mods or sticky tires. I set goals as to when I earned mods. I pretty much stayed on NT01's for about 2-3 years. Once I started hitting lap time targets, I added some power. Once I hit new targets, I added Hoosiers. Once I hit some targets after that, I added Aero. But again, my very first mods were safety and tire preservation (camber plates). From time to time, I end up driving a few laps with the intermediate groups. They are pretty much the worse and sketchiest driving group out there. Lowest situational awareness. Sometimes 2-3 laps before a point by. T rex points. Points given with right hand. Missing all kinds of apexes. The only group that actually frightens me to drive with it. Don't be that person. When you get promoted to Advanced, consider doing Time Trials. Competitive driving but you can do it with your HPDE vehicles. Its a nice bridge between HPDE and W2W. |
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06-17-2018, 11:30 PM | #9 | |
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I have been thinking about what the perfect balance is as far as safety upgrades to my car, because it is primarily my DD. I can't do a roll bar for this reason, plus I need my rear seats to function during normal life use (although apparently I need to remove them temporarily to fit all my track stuff lol). I know racing seats are not super comfy, but is there any reason I should not install them in my car that I would still be driving on the street? I feel like I have seen cars that have racing seats & harnesses, but that still have the original factory seat belts too. I like the idea of writing down notes on a track map. That is really cool, and it would be a great way to remember all the great visual references that I learn over the course of the weekend, amongst other things. Thank you! |
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06-17-2018, 11:53 PM | #10 |
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Recording a video of your laps toward the end of the day is a good way to keep notes of all the visual references and the line you've learned throughout the day. Also, one of the most useful things I've found is doing ride along with different instructors, especially letting them drive your own car. I was lucky enough to find an instructor with the same car and grippier tires for a ride along and it was eye opening to see the performance capability of a nearly stock E92 M3. I'm years away from needing power-related performance mods to improve lap times and instead should spend that money on track time to improve consistency.
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06-18-2018, 12:07 AM | #11 | |||||
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I like the idea of adding certain mods or upgrading tires based on hitting targets. I will hold onto that idea for the future. I have RE71s right now and I plan to keep using them for a while, and I have Ground Control street camber plates that I will be installing soon hopefully. Not much else is planned for the immediate future, unless I do some safety or brakes upgrades. Quote:
Just great advice in here, thank you so much!! |
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06-18-2018, 12:15 AM | #12 | |
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I also love riding in instructor cars, it is almost as much fun as learning how to drive my own car. But, more importantly, it is extremely informational and I learn so much every time I go out. That is super awesome you were able to find an instructor to ride along with that essentially had the same car, just with better tires. I have yet to experience that, but I can imagine it would be amazing. Thank you! |
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06-18-2018, 01:47 AM | #13 |
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Safety. If you want to keep your factory seats, you can get a Schroth QuickFit Pro harness and use a HANS device. I did this at my second event, as a novice.
I think E9X seats are terrible for track use (I have a friend who disagrees though so YMMV). FIA certified fixed-back seats are awesome IMO because they are safer and you can feel the car much, much better. I eventually ran my QFP harnesses with fixed back seats. It’s not recommended, but I personally felt safer. I have never had an instructor complain, and I always make sure they’re okay with my setup before they get in. You can also run a harness bar if you don’t want a roll bar. A lot of designs are shit, some are good. The QFP can be used with a harness/roll bar. Schroth actually recommends one if you want to use a QFP with fixed back seats. I eventually did this because a used one popped up for sale, and I had planned to switch to six point harnesses in the future. I run six points now, and at this point, that’s as far as I’m willing to go when it comes to safety (harness bar, fixed back seats, six points, HANS, tiny fire extinguisher). The next step for me would be a full cage but I’m not ready for that. Brey Krause makes good products for the E9X. They have a harness bar that can easily be moved out of the way for tires (there’s a thread in this sub forum, somewhere), seat mounts that have provisions for racing harnesses + factory belts, and sub strap mounts if you want to run five/six points. I think they make quality products. The seat mounts are very easy to use. Make sure the equipment you have is the same as the passenger side. Don’t be an ass and get the whole shebang for yourself, while keeping the passenger side stock. https://www.bkauto.com/mobile/Category.aspx?id=308 |
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06-18-2018, 03:44 AM | #14 |
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as DreamTime mentioned, take a look at the ross bentley podcasts. his website also has previously recorded webinars and track walks available as well.
one thing i'm reminded of in this thread is a ross bentley podcast where he has a guest that makes an interesting comparison with track driving and flying airplanes. the guest states that a "100 hour" pilot is often the most dangerous. enough seat time to be confident and complacent, but new enough to still be inexperienced. i liked that perspective. sounds like you have your head in the right spot already. some of the podcasts are just chatter, but some have great insight.
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06-18-2018, 06:23 AM | #16 |
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I did my first track event at Road Atlanta...in 1981. This was with the elevator shaft end of the back straight and the apex of the bridge turn literally right under the bridge. There was essentially no such thing yet as "instructors" at track events then as that concept was yet to come to all clubs/chapters.
I had two major experiences at that event (3-day Walter Mitty Challenge open track sessions) one of which was going into turn one after passing a car and getting loose on turn in while being offline. Speed was high, tail came around quick before the apex, and I just barely caught it, had my vision and thoughts focused up the hill, and got onto the throttle as the tail sliding was slowing down before it had a chance to slap back fully, kept going. Second one was at the top of the downhill essess where as I came out of turn 3(?) I ran into a completely ice-like surface. Zero steering, zero braking, no ability to change direction or car yaw. I was thinking of my out the whole time, where I wanted the car if possible while gently testing inputs, trying to regain grip. As soon as I hit the dirt/grass, I now had some control and after a couple of tank slappers, and applying the brakes at the right moments, slowed down enough to get on back on track to a red flagged session (turned out to be antifreeze an Audi 5000 deposited). Why have I bothered to relate all this crap (other than I'm old and get hung up telling stories?)? Before that first event, I had been autocrossing, with serious effort, for the prior 5-6 years. Car control was second nature and ingrained into my driving brain at that point. I also had spent huge amounts of time on dirt roads in rural Gwinnett and Hall counties drifting my mother's 1971 Oldsmobile 98 of all things when I was 16, 17. Sign up for an Evo School. Do their Phase 1 and Phase 2 schools which you can often find together on a Sat/Sun. It sounds like you're at the perfect spot where you can really soak in what they are teaching and make leaps and bounds progress.
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06-18-2018, 07:39 AM | #17 |
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There are 2 things I can think of to help with your progression from intermediate to advanced.
One is driving in as many wet events as possible. I know a lot of drivers skip sessions or the entire event if there is rain. This is by far the fastest way I learned car control. Just like your experience on the skid pad except now your on track. In the wet everything happens a little slower but it should simulate what you'd experience in the dry. The other is to start focusing on your braking. Straight line braking is safe and fantastic for learning everything else about the track. But the fastest drivers brake efficiently. Once you have the car control down you can start playing with trail braking (unless you already have, but I'm guessing not since you just turned off DSC). I feel like I waited too long to start this. I basically had to unlearn everything I was taught in the newbe and novice levels at the HPDE school. The general progression of most students is this: brake too early in a straight line, brake too late in a straight line (divebomb), trail braking with heavy braking, trail braking with light braking. Most everyone can get back to full throttle coming out of the corner, its maximizing the braking into the corner where the difficulty lies. There are seconds to be gained in proper braking. I came through the same system as Thundermoose. As he said, intermediate was the most dangerous group. They have the confidence to go fast but none of the skill to control it. I hated instructing in the intermediate group. You sound like you have the right approach. I think you'll do well. |
06-18-2018, 11:27 AM | #18 | |
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Three general pieces of advice below. I won't go into the minutia of car setup and all of that because I feel like that's a more advanced area to move into once you have really nailed technique and car control. 1. Spend money on improving your technique, car control, etc. Pay for personalized instruction or whatever. There are a surprising number of people or places that will do this. Average rate seems to be ~$1200/day, but some will do it by the hour for ~$150-200. 2. Data data data. Lap times are of limited use. Get an AIM Solo 2 DL or something similar and then analyze it to improve your on-track performance. There are a lot of resources and discussions for this. Are you sure you're being smooth with your inputs? Is trailbraking actually faster for corner X? Why was lap 4 actually faster than lap 5? Did the wider tires actually give me more grip? Where am I on the friction circle? For point #1 above, the instructors might even put a datalogger in your car to help objectively show you the mistakes you are making. 3. Spend money on safety gear. That means harnesses, HNR, extinguisher, and whatever else you feel you need. And of course, "pay it forward". Help others who are beginners. Spread the word. Be an advocate.
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06-18-2018, 11:46 AM | #19 |
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This is a great recommendation; to add to it, think of 1 to 3 things you want to improve upon BEFORE each session then take a moment to debrief AFTER it. Be honest with yourself and be sure to note both positive and constructive takeaways.
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2013 E92 M3 Competition 6MT Slick Top | AW / Fox Red | 2006 E86 M Coupe | Silver Gray / Imola | JRZ RSTWO | APR Aero | Sparco Seats/Belts | Weichers Cage Gone: 2017 Audi Q7 | 2011 E93 328i 6MT | 2014 Audi A6 | 2010 VW CC 2.0T | 2011 G37 S Coupe 6MT | 2004 G35 Coupe | SW20 MR2 Widebody Turbo |
06-18-2018, 09:30 PM | #20 | |
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I quit driving student's cars after having one crap out on me on track (other than orientation laps). Electronic module went caput and stranded us (it was a VW). Plus, I saw an instructor stuff a student's car once. Not a good look. It's not worth the risk to me and I've had some pretty tasty cars dangled in front of me...
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06-18-2018, 10:39 PM | #21 | |||||||
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Long day at work, couldn't even squeeze out a second to hop on the forum (lame...lol). Just got home after a BMW CCA meeting to find all of these amazing responses!! Just finished reading everything, wow.
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Lol, I like that last part. Any major safety upgrades I do to my drivers seat area I would also do for my front passenger area. I try to not be an asshole in life Quote:
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I just googled Evo School. Will be looking into that for sure. Quote:
Great advice on braking, thank you. I feel like this is a piece of advice I will reference back to over the coming months/years. Quote:
2. I am a complete data nerd. I already have a Solo2 DL and an M World CAN BUS harness, I just ran out of time to connect the harness to my car before this last weekend. It is next on my list of car projects. Numbers and hard data show exactly where and how to improve, which is why I'm so excited to get this thing fully set up. 3. I only think more and more about safety upgrades. The next major purchases for the car will likely be safety related. I love that last part. Paying it forward is the best. Quote:
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06-18-2018, 10:45 PM | #22 |
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It's definitely eye opening to have an instructor or close friend who's very good drive your car. He hopped right in my car and showed me what it's like to control slip angle of the car smoothly. Was eye opening as you said! He made my car rotate and turn in with such ease that I can't do today
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