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      07-10-2018, 02:08 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
I wanted a mostly OEM car so the wheels, slightly lower suspension, and mild EDC tune that ZCP provides has been just right for me. The civic M3 suspension isn't bad but I do feel like the sport EDC damping is a little better on ZCP, especially when on undulating surfaces in corners. The slight prestige is nice as well and resale values will hold a touch better.

I've owned an E90 ZCP in the past, driven non-ZCPs with EDC, and now own an E92 ZCP.
Haha, yep - for me Sport is flat out intolerable under any circumstance so there's no value there for me between the two. The standard EDC is the same for me as the ZCP EDC.
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      07-10-2018, 02:14 PM   #46
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      07-10-2018, 02:41 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jv92red View Post
I just picked up my E92 a few weeks ago. More than my want list (ZCP), was my do not want list. So I'll list those first in order of importance:

1) No Black or blue cars (dark colors show dust and swirl marks like no other
2) No Sunroof. (Carbon roofs pop on lighter color cars and show more aggressive)
3) No DCT
4) No cloth interior

I found a few nice cars I passed over because of those requirements. I ended up with a 2010 Alpine White carbon roof 6MT with 20K miles for $36K.

If I were still looking, I would still pass this car without a second glance even at cheaper price than I paid for mine.
To bad your not on the east cost I have a 2011 comp package leather interior dinan tune dinan intake Akrapovic exhaust for 37k White with black leather
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      07-10-2018, 02:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3silk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jv92red View Post
I just picked up my E92 a few weeks ago. More than my want list (ZCP), was my do not want list. So I'll list those first in order of importance:

1) No Black or blue cars (dark colors show dust and swirl marks like no other
2) No Sunroof. (Carbon roofs pop on lighter color cars and show more aggressive)
3) No DCT
4) No cloth interior

I found a few nice cars I passed over because of those requirements. I ended up with a 2010 Alpine White carbon roof 6MT with 20K miles for $36K.

If I were still looking, I would still pass this car without a second glance even at cheaper price than I paid for mine.
To bad your not on the east cost I have a 2011 comp package leather interior dinan tune dinan intake Akrapovic exhaust for 37k White with black leather
How many miles?
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      07-10-2018, 02:45 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BOOF-M3 View Post
How many miles?
just hit 30k miles super clean pm me if you would like info I picked up a M5 and don't drive it anymore I was going to give it to my son for when he turned 16 but I just thought about it and said the hell with that he will tear this car up. Honda Accord for him
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      07-10-2018, 02:54 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by k3silk View Post
just hit 30k miles super clean pm me if you would like info I picked up a M5 and don't drive it anymore I was going to give it to my son for when he turned 16 but I just thought about it and said the hell with that he will tear this car up. Honda Accord for him
Great call! The 15 year old me says gimme for my 16th birthday, but the 30 year old me says put it in a time capsule for college graduation (with a non-art degree haha). Maybe give him a nice chassis that starts with low power, like a used 86/BRZ/FR-S (if he's an auto enthusiast).
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      07-10-2018, 02:59 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Great call! The 15 year old me says gimme for my 16th birthday, but the 30 year old me says put it in a time capsule for college graduation (with a non-art degree haha). Maybe give him a nice chassis that starts with low power, like a used 86/BRZ/FR-S (if he's an auto enthusiast).
Yeah Its crazy I figured since I had it and he always loved it I would save it for him a couple years away but as I thought about it I appreciate cars so much more because I started from the bottom and have now owned ever car I have ever wanted other then My GT3 which I still can get when Im ready. Having A F10 M5 e92 M3 2nd Gen Jeep SRT and C7 Z06 is just a bit of over kill right now. haha and need to make some more room in the garage. Both motorcycle are crammed in the corner and never see the light of day because I would have to play all types of shuffle to move the cars hahah.
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      07-10-2018, 04:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
I totally agree that it's worth more, and, generally more desirable. It's cool and exclusive and even though I prefer the 220s, the ZCP wheels are sexy.

Rereading my post above it came off as if I thought he ZCP was worthless and that's not the case. I just don't think it's a "must have" - it's a sorta take it or leave it kinda thing. I objected the poster who I quoted who suggested that no one wants a non-ZCP car.

The same argument happens with the 46M and F8XMs, although without question the latter is by far the most thorough comp pack to date and really does change the overall nature and character of the car.... and dramatically changes the look with those pimp daddy 666s. But even so, there are plenty of people who don't want that.
Your point was valid. The ZCP package infers a very small performance benefit suspension wise, but the wheels are heavier so its a wash. I can tell a significant difference between my 220m's and ZCP 359's in terms of steering weight and responsiveness. I even thought about selling my 359's but they just look so damn good. From my understanding the biggest weakness of the stock suspension is the rebound, the ZCP doesn't change that. The button still only deals with the compression element.

I would agree that standard EDC suspension in sport setting is a mess, I never use it. Normal is perfect for fast road driving, supple and deals well with bumps. It's not great at very fast transitions but that is not helped by the cars weight. The drop would be nice cosmetically, but you could just get DINAN stage 1 and have basically the same effect.

Recently I have ridden in a number of non performance cars that felt a lot choppier and no where near as well dampened. I rode in a Mazda 6 with 30k miles on it and it felt awful, same with and f10 5 series I rode in which felt very over sprung (this affects a lot of modern cars looking to be 'sporty') despite having huge sidewall tires.


Ultimately the stock M3 suspension is fantastic, compromised if you want more extreme but for a huge spectrum of driving types its very impressive. Every time I cruise in comfort mode i'm reminded at just how civil it is when you want it to be.
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      07-10-2018, 05:03 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Your point was valid. The ZCP package infers a very small performance benefit suspension wise, but the wheels are heavier so its a wash. I can tell a significant difference between my 220m's and ZCP 359's in terms of steering weight and responsiveness. I even thought about selling my 359's but they just look so damn good. From my understanding the biggest weakness of the stock suspension is the rebound, the ZCP doesn't change that. The button still only deals with the compression element.

I would agree that standard EDC suspension in sport setting is a mess, I never use it. Normal is perfect for fast road driving, supple and deals well with bumps. It's not great at very fast transitions but that is not helped by the cars weight. The drop would be nice cosmetically, but you could just get DINAN stage 1 and have basically the same effect.

Recently I have ridden in a number of non performance cars that felt a lot choppier and no where near as well dampened. I rode in a Mazda 6 with 30k miles on it and it felt awful, same with and f10 5 series I rode in which felt very over sprung (this affects a lot of modern cars looking to be 'sporty') despite having huge sidewall tires.


Ultimately the stock M3 suspension is fantastic, compromised if you want more extreme but for a huge spectrum of driving types its very impressive. Every time I cruise in comfort mode i'm reminded at just how civil it is when you want it to be.
Good post. I agree on the suspension overall - extremely good for an out of the box solution at my age (42). I do agree that it doesn't do well over sharp/quick ripples or transitions but really, there's always a compromise.

An Ohlins RT, for example, is really good over the sharp/quick transitions but much too 'firm' for normal driving. Can't have your cake with suspensions, I'm afraid (and I've used a lot of different setups).

Interesting note about the steering response with 359s... is the only variable the wheels (meaning identical tires/sizes)?
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      07-10-2018, 06:21 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Good post. I agree on the suspension overall - extremely good for an out of the box solution at my age (42). I do agree that it doesn't do well over sharp/quick ripples or transitions but really, there's always a compromise.

An Ohlins RT, for example, is really good over the sharp/quick transitions but much too 'firm' for normal driving. Can't have your cake with suspensions, I'm afraid (and I've used a lot of different setups).

Interesting note about the steering response with 359s... is the only variable the wheels (meaning identical tires/sizes)?
I went 220M's with PS4S, to 220M with AS/3+, to ZCP with PS4S in stock sizes. The second I started driving the ZCP the steering felt heavier and a touch less responsive, more initial resistance and less feel . I'm used to it now, but with the 220's the car definitely felt lighter on it's feet. The ZCP's are a great looking wheel that's very strong, but they are not a performance wheel in my opinion. Cast 20inch wheels must be awful. I'd like to try a car with forged 18's, I suspect they are quite transformational.
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      07-10-2018, 07:07 PM   #55
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Agree with the first comment - Sunroof.

For me, I love sunroofs. My wife has a Q5 with a huge sunroof and I make sure it's all the way open.

BUT when it comes to an e92 - I have absolutely less than zero interest in a car with a sunroof. Gotta have that CF roof - that look really MAKES the car in my mind.

Sure, you can get away with it on a black car but that's something I didn't want to compromise on.
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      07-10-2018, 09:08 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Your point was valid. The ZCP package infers a very small performance benefit suspension wise, but the wheels are heavier so its a wash. I can tell a significant difference between my 220m's and ZCP 359's in terms of steering weight and responsiveness. I even thought about selling my 359's but they just look so damn good. From my understanding the biggest weakness of the stock suspension is the rebound, the ZCP doesn't change that. The button still only deals with the compression element.
As described in the link to the BMW Blog article I referenced above, the competition package specifically addresses rebound damping, not compression, and the EDC modes all adjust dynamically with ZCP, where the non-ZCP EDC is fixed mode only. Yes, as has been discussed, the ZCP wheels are very slightly heavier, but not by much, and they are also wider, so this creates a broader contact patch, which translates to better grip.
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      07-10-2018, 09:14 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by PACarGuy View Post
As described in the link to the BMW Blog article I referenced above, the competition package specifically addresses rebound damping, not compression, and the EDC modes all adjust dynamically with ZCP, where the non-ZCP EDC is fixed mode only. Yes, as has been discussed, the ZCP wheels are very slightly heavier, but not by much, and they are also wider, so this creates a broader contact patch, which translates to better grip.
Not necessarily by slightly stretching the same 245/265 tires. Stretching the same size high performance tire typically reduces max grip while increasing direct feel and breakaway predictability to an extent.
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      07-10-2018, 09:20 PM   #58
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Not by slightly stretching the same 245/265 tires. Stretching the same size tire reduces max grip while increasing direct feel and breakaway predictability to an extent.
I suppose that could be true if you were really stretching the tires onto a much larger wheel that is outside of the acceptable range, but 245/265 tres are not stretched on 9"/10" wheels. Those are both well within the specified range of wheel width for those size tires.

You don't have to take my word for it. BMW was the one who engineered the ZCP, and stated that the contact area is larger with the 359 wheels:

https://www.bmwblog.com/2010/05/13/b...e-even-faster/

"Wänninger: Yes, the car is measurably faster. In addition to the special EDC set-up, this is also due to the increased width of the rims included in the Competition Package, which permit a larger a larger contact area of the tyres in conjunction with optimum, constant pressure distribution."
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      07-10-2018, 09:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by PACarGuy View Post
As described in the link to the BMW Blog article I referenced above, the competition package specifically addresses rebound damping, not compression, and the EDC modes all adjust dynamically with ZCP, where the non-ZCP EDC is fixed mode only. Yes, as has been discussed, the ZCP wheels are very slightly heavier, but not by much, and they are also wider, so this creates a broader contact patch, which translates to better grip.
You are confused. The difference with ZCP is sport mode is not 'fixed'. Non ZCP cars are dynamic in comfort and normal mode. If you re-read the BMW article you referenced it repeats this. The EDC button still only impacts compression.

As for wider wheels having more grip, both the ZCP and non ZCP have exactly the same tires as standard..

As for ZCP being measurably faster, is there any data to support that? I've never seen any. Happy to be proved wrong.
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      07-10-2018, 10:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
You are confused. The difference with ZCP is sport mode is not 'fixed'. Non ZCP cars are dynamic in comfort and normal mode. If you re-read the BMW article you referenced it repeats this. The EDC button still only impacts compression.
Yes, sorry - meant to say sport mode is fixed not all modes. But the EDC (and ZCP changes) does adjust rebound damping, as stated in the article:

“Wänninger: It is mainly the rebound which is adjusted by controlling the damper piston valve.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
As for wider wheels having more grip, both the ZCP and non ZCP have exactly the same tires as standard..

As for ZCP being measurably faster, is there any data to support that? I've never seen any. Happy to be proved wrong.
Same tires on wider wheels create a broader contact patch profile. See my post above.

I don’t have data but I have to assume BMW does since their engineer is making the claim.
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      07-11-2018, 05:51 AM   #61
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The contact patch area is determined by the vehicle weight, carcass stiffness and, most importantly, the inflation pressure. Increasing wheel width, while holding the other variables constant, increases the measurement of section width of the tire/wheel combo -- rule of thumb is for every increase of 1" in wheel width, you get ~0.4" in section width increase. They also increase the effective spring rate of the tire sidewall. This results in a steeper slope to the tractive force vs slip angle curve -- the tire will feel more responsive, generate slightly higher force output at any given slip angle.

As to maximum tire grip at steady state conditions, the effect is marginal and likely within the bounds of repeatability for a minor 0.5" change in wheel width. However, if you test from the minimum recommended wheel width to the maximum one (in the TRA guidelines), you definitely will see a measurable difference. It all comes down to how the contact patch is managed and load distributed across it at maximum grip. All other things equal, a wider wheel *usually* results in better contact patch "shape" under maximum load. There are caveats to this blanket statement however; hence, blanket marketing material statements are not hard facts -- never have been, and never will be.

Funny this topic is being discussed as my EC-7s are arriving today. I'm not holding the tire variable constant though since I'm changing to PS4S from 5 year old PSS. Tire size is constant however: 255/35-19 and 275/35-19; wheel sizes are changing from 8.5/9.5 to 9.5/10.5.
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      07-11-2018, 06:17 AM   #62
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The number one reason is right there on the options list: sunroof.
Some people prefer the sunroof option, for me it was not a deal breaker if the car had a carbon top, but sunroof was ideal.

OP: I think it depends, if I were buying a low mileage car who’s suspension I wasn’t planning on touching, I would want to do a comp package. On the other hand if I have plans to modify or if the car has some mileage on it or is a clean pre-facelift, I would not care.
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      07-11-2018, 07:02 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalRPM View Post
Agree with the first comment - Sunroof.

For me, I love sunroofs. My wife has a Q5 with a huge sunroof and I make sure it's all the way open.

BUT when it comes to an e92 - I have absolutely less than zero interest in a car with a sunroof. Gotta have that CF roof - that look really MAKES the car in my mind.

Sure, you can get away with it on a black car but that's something I didn't want to compromise on.
I agree. The sunroof is nothing more than a heavy half-assed compromise. If you want an open car, get the e93. If you want the coupe, get the CF roof. I have a sunroof, and in the past 5 years I have opened it exactly twice. What a waste. I should have gotten the CF roof option.
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      07-11-2018, 08:53 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
I agree. The sunroof is nothing more than a heavy half-assed compromise. If you want an open car, get the e93. If you want the coupe, get the CF roof. I have a sunroof, and in the past 5 years I have opened it exactly twice. What a waste. I should have gotten the CF roof option.
Yeah, it's virtually useless.

However! It was a rare day yesterday in San Diego - it was warm but totally overcast (my absolute favorite weather) and perfect for sunroof-open driving. Had the roof open for hours later in the day as the wife and I dropped of the 46M for rod bearings (Kaiv).

But yeah, 99.9% of the time it's closed. If the sun is shining (98% of the time in SD) I want the roof shut, no question.
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      07-11-2018, 10:06 AM   #65
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I have a sunroof in my 08 E90M3. I have opened it only a few times in 8 years. I bought used and the car came with it. You can retrofit a carbon roof. It’s a bit of work but can be done if it is important to you. I think Lang Racing has done some. Get rid of the sunroof, save some weight. Not high on my priority list but if I ever run out of things to do and have some money burning a hole in my pocket, it is an option.

Light and wider wheels are easy — been running Apex ARC8 in 18x9.5/10.5 for 8 years.
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      07-11-2018, 10:14 AM   #66
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I get that the look of the CF roof is certainly awesome and does complete the car, but I do actually use my sunroof quite a bit. I open it on nice days pretty frequently, and even when it's not open, I almost always leave it tilted to let air flow through. With how often I leave the gym sweaty, I really need to let air flow through, LOL.

As for the weight, we're really only talking about 11 lbs, which is not going to make or break too many folks. Yes, I realize it's up high where you don't want it, but it's not like it's 50 lbs. If I was racing the car (not tracking, since there's little to be gained other than bragging rights), I would have made CF roof mandatory, but otherwise I like having a sunroof.

To each his own.
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