The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[bigjae1976]

I think we're all preaching to the choir. I haven't instructed any BMW drivers that were total jackasses. Its usually been Vette and muscle car drivers that have been the worst. Although my worst one by far was a 5' Asian guy in an Evo X...fresh off the boat. He was so short he couldn't see out of the left window because the mirror was in the way. I asked about 10 times, are you sure you can see the apex? Needless to say...he missed many apexes on left handers and then wore out my patience 5 off track excursions later. I was too patient now that I think of it.

I mean...how do you demand a student sit on a phone book to drive?

[OC3]

When I think back on when I took Drivers Ed in high school (LAUSD), don't know how those drivers ed instructors did it with scores of awkward teenagers in the driver's seat out on the public road.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think we're all preaching to the choir. I haven't instructed any BMW drivers that were total jackasses. Its usually been Vette and muscle car drivers that have been the worst. Although my worst one by far was a 5' Asian guy in an Evo X...fresh off the boat. He was so short he couldn't see out of the left window because the mirror was in the way. I asked about 10 times, are you sure you can see the apex? Needless to say...he missed many apexes on left handers and then wore out my patience 5 off track excursions later. I was too patient now that I think of it.

I mean...how do you demand a student sit on a phone book to drive?

Dat's funny right derr

[PrimeBMW]

I've never had the desire to instruct. I am there to improve my driving and saving a few bucks, jumping in a strangers car is not attractive to me. Most of the beginner cars are new and safe........some of the instructor cars are old (e30, e36) cobbled together and are a little scary. But 500+ hp and first time on the track?!?!?
Others have touched on this but I think the tracks should be evolving. There are two new tracks in the Pacific NW and they are pretty safe compared to the older ones. I haven't heard of deaths but there is plenty of damage to cars (older tracks) in the wet.........beginners and advanced. Trees!!!! Are you kidding me! I am sure someone would volunteer to cut it down......or move a fence, etc..... Sitting back and saying "well it’s a dangerous sport" or "it was fine in the past" doesn't cut it for me.

[OC3]

Poor instructor. Think he's alright, though.

How do you go off, then drive straight for like over 4 sec's (i.e. eons), and only come to a stop after hitting a fence?

Didn't know there was a fence on the west side of Phil Hill, but I do now!


.

[1MOREMOD]

Surprised no airbag deployment.

[USCTrojanMan29]

What the hell did he do to go off? Did he brake after the berm and the car's rear whipped out on him? I never knew there was a fence out there either. My guess is that he didn't brake hard enough because he could have easily stopped with so much space before hitting that fence.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

What the hell did he do to go off? Did he brake after the berm and the car's rear whipped out on him? I never knew there was a fence out there either. My guess is that he didn't brake hard enough because he could have easily stopped with so much space before hitting that fence.

See, this is what I'm talking about. Track with TC/PASM, and you're not aware of what happens at corners ("The Kink") like this, because TC/PASM masks it all for you.

As you're passing the apex on this very fast corner, when you're TC off, you better already be starting to straighten out the steering wheel as you're passing the apex, and then, track far to the right (and then, arc back to the left as you start climbing towards Phil Hill).

The driver in this video kept the steering wheel pinched (i.e. it was still turned to the left) after he cleared said apex. At this corner, this exact oversteer & eventual off happens to a lot of cars with TC off when the driver is not aware of needing to unwind the steering wheel and tracking out to the far right. Photo shown below is a freeze-frame of the video just at the moment when the tail comes out (he's already cleared the apex). Look how much his steering wheel still is turned, and how close he is to the left edge of the track. At this point, his steering wheel should be straight and his car should be closer to the right side edge of the track than to the left, or at least half way between left & right.

On a related note, you asked me last year, after watching my BRP 13 CCW video, why my car got sideways after going over Phil Hill. And the answer is, same as above. I did not unwind the steering wheel enough after going over the Phil Hill ridge. You get on the gas with steering wheel still turned liked that and the car will get sideways. In that same CCW video, it shows other laps where I did unwind and tracked out to the right side and you'll notice that the car didn't get sideways as I got on the gas.

You'll see - when you go TC off later, all these things that you were oblivious to, all comes out in play.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Surprised no airbag deployment.

That will be the MoMo aftermarket "no airbag split your head open, but looks racy and cool" steering wheel?

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by OC3

Poor instructor. Think he's alright, though.

How do you go off, then drive straight for like over 4 sec's (i.e. eons), and only come to a stop after hitting a fence?

Didn't know there was a fence on the west side of Phil Hill, but I do now!


.

Wow, 4+ point belts but no HANS or equivalent for the instructor. Just look at his neck snap forward, especially the last impact. He's lucky on this one. Anyone wearing a harness that solidly locates their upper torso but not wearing a head and neck protection device is insane.

[Kwando]

Ah open track days..

[M3 Esq]

^ He was just tracking all the way out...

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

What the hell did he do to go off? Did he brake after the berm and the car's rear whipped out on him? I never knew there was a fence out there either. My guess is that he didn't brake hard enough because he could have easily stopped with so much space before hitting that fence.

Once he hit the dirt he was going for a little ride. Doubt his brakes worked at all - no grip.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by OC3

Poor instructor. Think he's alright, though.

How do you go off, then drive straight for like over 4 sec's (i.e. eons), and only come to a stop after hitting a fence?

Didn't know there was a fence on the west side of Phil Hill, but I do now!


.

People must go off there all the time. You can see all the skid marks leading off track. This is why I leave MDM on - it might intervene at times but it will also help save the car when you f-ck up.

[Shaung]

I'll throw my two cents on why he went off. Looks like he's some kind of WRX. If so, they are known to have issue with a throttle lift off oversteer. I've read it has something to do with it's all wheel drive system.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

That will be the MoMo aftermarket "no airbag split your head open, but looks racy and cool" steering wheel?

Ah best to look cool I have a stocker with same functionality so this guy is smoking me in style points.

[FTS]

IMHO I think all posters have very good points. At the same time there are no easy answers, are there? I am certainly all for incorporating more technology, but let's not kid ourselves, the number of instructors that can read/analyze data and video, and 'coach' through only that information is less than 1% of total available instructors. Additionally, I really do not believe that PSM/DSC type electronics are helpful in teaching students driving techniques that will help them improve, they save the day sometimes, but do not teach.

I have been instructing for about six years, primarily because I truly enjoy instructing. It became my new hobby in such a way that I hardly run in my own run group any more, but run in student groups to observe behavior, mistakes, and general track etiquette, and then participate in classroom discussions with my observations and recommendations.

During the last couple of years I have developed an increasing fear of instructing in the car and I am trying to overcome it, while I am looking for alternative methods to provide coaching. With this increased awareness of risks, I have been limiting myself to instructing and participating in PCA events, which I feel have the most consistent group of drivers and good balance between enjoyment, fun and safety. During the last 4-6 months I have been looking more and more into alternative methods of coaching, and there are certainly ways to do it, but I am not yet sure of their effectiveness.

I prefer the PCA's HPDE format for few specific reasons, although there are some variations across the regions. In my region, Founder's (Potomac), we have five run groups and only first two, novice and beginner, are instructed. I believe, although there is not explicit official statement to this, one of the reasons we only instruct the first two groups is that the drivers certainly need hand holding, but it is thought that (personal opinion here) intermediate and above drivers are responsible for their own development, and our program provides them with the opportunity of seat time for them to do so. We take every measure we possibly can currently before moving drivers to higher run groups to preserve safety.

I actually appreciate this approach, and I am one of the two instructors in our region responsible for the development of the intermediate group. This group of drivers are quite fast and have received strong fundamental driving instructions before coming in. For a HPDE instructor to sit next to them while they are running only 2-3 secs off red run group drivers is daunting frankly. There have been multiple instances in which I was truly scared, not because of mistakes, but I was not sure the driver would be able to execute proper technique to take certain corners at the speeds they were intending. Which is the reason I am looking into incorporating additional technology for this group before we sign off the drivers to higher group.

When I compare this to BMW CCA, where they have instructors even in advance groups, the proposition is a big turn off for me as a driver and instructor. Although BMW CCA's instructor program is much more elaborate than PCA's, I have not seen the program produce 'better' instructors frankly. I mean this in the most constructive way. I don't mean BMW CCA has bad instructors, they have very very good instructors, but there is no evidence that they are better than PCA's or any other club's, well may be except NASA . I believe the reason there is no evidence is because the programs goals are not quite clear or do not match the goals of drivers (this is such a loaded statement, I know ) So, how do you measure success of any given program?

So, I prefer that in the PCA we give the responsibility of development back to the driver after a certain level, however, I think all clubs need to focus more on instructor and instructing development and get off the notion that what used to work will continue to work; I don't think it does and will.

It is easy to make these comments of course, but the answer to how you actually do that is much more complicated. I honestly feel like I am not doing enough to help my region, and constantly struggle to find ways that are politically correct. I don't have the answers and that bothers me, and it seems from posts on this thread that I am not the only one, which is very encouraging.

[CSBM5]

FTS,

Good thoughtful post/comments. I like the way the PCA handles groups as you describe too.

Personally, I used to instruct in the early days (1980s) but after taking a hiatus from track/autox/car stuff while the family grew, when I got back into events and such 10 years ago, there was no way I was going to sit right seat in what I felt were way too powerful cars for many to pilot. In the 80s when instructing someone in an E21 320i with 110hp, there was a lot of opportunity for true driver development, car control skill development (on 80s street tires), etc, with a risk profile vastly lower than today even though car structures themselves are vastly safer today. Hitting 90mph on a main straight versus 150+ like today is a profoundly different scenario. Even the "fast cars" back then, like mine which was an E3 with about 250hp, would be jokes in today's events where a total novice can show up with 500+ hp (and said novice "learns" how to drive with nanny-help covering up most mistakes and inability to handle throttle inputs on a 500hp motor).

When I sit back and think about it a bit, it's frankly a bit odd that people will take a street car with enormous power/speed potential, and then put it on a race track and (here's the kicker) drive the thing at/close to/over 10/10ths perhaps using R-comp tires, race pads, etc. For an instructor to take the right seat in said situation while the "driver" does things like enter the uphill essess at VIR at 110mph while said instructor holds onto the hand grip and yanks that 3-point belt tight as possible, seems unreal, especially when followed by a 150+mph jaunt down the 4000' back straight with that 500+hp powering the way.

Given what North Carolina has now done with automobile insurance, the liability coverage on track is limited to $30k per person and umbrella policies are void for on-track stuff. The potential for huge liability where the waiver is voided in court in worst case outcome situations should at least have some ponder what they are subjecting themselves and their families to; however, it's my experience that few people care about such things for some reason. Companies selling "track day insurance" only sell property damage policies (the lowest risk) and not liability policies (huge possible risk).

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by FTS

IMHO I think all posters have very good points. At the same time there are no easy answers, are there? I am certainly all for incorporating more technology, but let's not kid ourselves, the number of instructors that can read/analyze data and video, and 'coach' through only that information is less than 1% of total available instructors. Additionally, I really do not believe that PSM/DSC type electronics are helpful in teaching students driving techniques that will help them improve, they save the day sometimes, but do not teach.

I have been instructing for about six years, primarily because I truly enjoy instructing. It became my new hobby in such a way that I hardly run in my own run group any more, but run in student groups to observe behavior, mistakes, and general track etiquette, and then participate in classroom discussions with my observations and recommendations.

During the last couple of years I have developed an increasing fear of instructing in the car and I am trying to overcome it, while I am looking for alternative methods to provide coaching. With this increased awareness of risks, I have been limiting myself to instructing and participating in PCA events, which I feel have the most consistent group of drivers and good balance between enjoyment, fun and safety. During the last 4-6 months I have been looking more and more into alternative methods of coaching, and there are certainly ways to do it, but I am not yet sure of their effectiveness.

I prefer the PCA's HPDE format for few specific reasons, although there are some variations across the regions. In my region, Founder's (Potomac), we have five run groups and only first two, novice and beginner, are instructed. I believe, although there is not explicit official statement to this, one of the reasons we only instruct the first two groups is that the drivers certainly need hand holding, but it is thought that (personal opinion here) intermediate and above drivers are responsible for their own development, and our program provides them with the opportunity of seat time for them to do so. We take every measure we possibly can currently before moving drivers to higher run groups to preserve safety.

I actually appreciate this approach, and I am one of the two instructors in our region responsible for the development of the intermediate group. This group of drivers are quite fast and have received strong fundamental driving instructions before coming in. For a HPDE instructor to sit next to them while they are running only 2-3 secs off red run group drivers is daunting frankly. There have been multiple instances in which I was truly scared, not because of mistakes, but I was not sure the driver would be able to execute proper technique to take certain corners at the speeds they were intending. Which is the reason I am looking into incorporating additional technology for this group before we sign off the drivers to higher group.

When I compare this to BMW CCA, where they have instructors even in advance groups, the proposition is a big turn off for me as a driver and instructor. Although BMW CCA's instructor program is much more elaborate than PCA's, I have not seen the program produce 'better' instructors frankly. I mean this in the most constructive way. I don't mean BMW CCA has bad instructors, they have very very good instructors, but there is no evidence that they are better than PCA's or any other club's, well may be except NASA . I believe the reason there is no evidence is because the programs goals are not quite clear or do not match the goals of drivers (this is such a loaded statement, I know ) So, how do you measure success of any given program?

So, I prefer that in the PCA we give the responsibility of development back to the driver after a certain level, however, I think all clubs need to focus more on instructor and instructing development and get off the notion that what used to work will continue to work; I don't think it does and will.

It is easy to make these comments of course, but the answer to how you actually do that is much more complicated. I honestly feel like I am not doing enough to help my region, and constantly struggle to find ways that are politically correct. I don't have the answers and that bothers me, and it seems from posts on this thread that I am not the only one, which is very encouraging.

Totally agree. PCA is the best club I have run with and honestly I only run with BMW now because I know everyone at the events. There is definitely less hand holding in PCA. There is a chief instructor in one of the local PCA chapters that does his own classroom and track walks. He's the only instructor that consistently talks about what to do when things go wrong, pointing out runoff areas, what to do if you put a wheel off ect. BMW (in my experience) is good at teaching the novice student the line, to brake in a straight line, ect. but they struggle with what to teach the int and adv students. Not enough clubs teach what to do when things go wrong IMO.

[bigjae1976]

I think PCA has a much more uniform and consistent application of HPDE rules than BMWCCA. The Badger chapter...despite my "prior experience" made me go through their instructor clinic. I like that because it shows me they have some sort of program AND I get an opportunity to learn more about what I "should" already know. Not all BMWCCA chapters are like that.

Just like novice drivers, I think the drivers AND instructors should be checked out at every level occasionally. The one thing that impressed me most about the PCA TX chapter (Lone Star???) is they have an instructor dedicated to checking out other instructors. Wow! I like that!

I think BMWCCA and PCA are good at preaching and talking about what HPDE is which shows, for the most part, in the drivers who are usually more conservative. I think the growing trend of large regional and national HPDE orgs is really where the "issue" is. There is one DE org...receives much praise here on this very forum for the endless time on track, drive until you drop...said I could be an instructor based on an email. I have not instructed with them simply because I am not comfortable. They provide the best deal on track time for instructors.

I did (and hope to once again in the future) instruct for the Driver's Edge. Over a weekend, you get 2 students, plus up to 2 levels of check rides for advanced students AND instructors get cut one session in the name of closing up early. You leave exhausted. I'm fine with that...because the Driver's Edge has a robust program which keeps pretty close tabs on their drivers. AND the owner has demonstrated that he has zero issue showing someone the door. Drivers AND instructors. Yes, he has fired instructors for things that are well accepted in other DE orgs. Most of all, he has a tried and true novice class which focuses on the fundamentals. That makes me feel more comfortable instructing.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Kwando

Ah open track days..

Don't know what's worse, or better: last turn before the front straight being a right turn where the trackout is along the wall (where things like this happens), or last turn before the front straight being a left turn (where, people track out too much and drop wheels on the outside, and then desperately tries to get back on track and, when they do, the car shoots across the track and slams into the wall).

[Triple M]

FTS and CSBM5 both hit the nail right on the head. What what worked in instructing 20-30 years ago when power and car weight was less is different from what would work with today's car's monstrous power. For God sakes, if F1 and other forms of motor sport thought it was an unacceptable to take such risk, why should the rest of us with resource and technology think we know better. Its still amazes me how some of the greatest talents in the sport lost their loves doing it and we can't use "lack of skill" or "poor judgment" as an excuse. Car of nowadays are just blistering fast in my opinion. 1 hot lap in friend's ZR1 was enough for to say "this is not for me". One of the winding road article pointed out that today's car design is clearly the opposite of what a track car should be 3800 lbs, lumpy suspension, and mushy street pad, yet we try to drive them at the limit. I mean, why track pad, why coilovers, why nannies??? etc. they are all efforts that are aimed in an effort to get the car around the track faster without killing ourselves in the process. My old E30 M3, and miata is a more forgiving car with street pads on track than my E92 M3. It's amazing when you look at "race cars" nowadays and you see "race ABS", "race TC" why? I wonder why . We all know why. Good friend of mine sold his GT3 said it was "too much of a car to handle at limit", bought a BRZ, had it fully caged and fully built by local Subi Zenkai Motorsport and he's much happier. Bottom line is most these vehicles would be close to impossible to drive even on public roads for the average joe without electronics. That's the reality of today's cars obesity coupled with excessive power needed to propel them, then we decide to turn some of them into track cars and it gets a little more serious from there. I'd still love to see a RWD skyline GTR.