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      10-20-2020, 10:11 AM   #67
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They made a loss on every damn one of them.
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      10-20-2020, 10:55 AM   #68
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      10-20-2020, 12:19 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TargaM2 View Post
Porsche are supercar money depending on what market you live in thus not what I'd consider "affordable" & even they continue to increase markedly in size/weight.
used boxter/cayman/even 911 can be had with non-supercar money... (not talking about the likes of gt3 rs of course)
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      10-20-2020, 12:41 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldogo View Post
BMW M2
...is not an "affordable" enthusiast car.
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      10-20-2020, 01:28 PM   #71
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I don't get the M2, it's basically same weight as the m3 so why do i want the smaller car? It's also a heavy, expensive sedan not a light weight tossable steerer. Closest we have is FRS but that engine blows....
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      10-20-2020, 01:30 PM   #72
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      10-20-2020, 02:03 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakystyly View Post
How did the i3 turn out with their bespoke carbon fiber chassis? Would it have sold better if it wasn't electric, ugly and half SUV?
A few years ago, I did a rough calculation between the Chevy Bolt and the i3 if the i3 were able to match the Bolt's 238-mile range. I used the weight difference between the original 80-mile i3 and the 120-mile i3, then extrapolated the needed additional battery capacity (i.e. battery weight) for the i3 to achieve near 238 miles on a charge. The Bolt was just about 180 pounds heavier than the i3. What wasn't in my calculations were the extra chassis weight to support the heavier battery in the i3, such as larger brakes and crash reinforcement of the frame/body.

The i3 was just a dog and pony show.
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      10-20-2020, 02:38 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Forced Induction or engine swapped Miata FTW
Nirvana:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-mazda-mx5-v8/

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...8-test-review/

A modern day Sunbeam Tiger :-)
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      10-20-2020, 03:31 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The i3 was just a dog and pony show.
Battery limitations aside, there's still only one brand (tesla) who has an E sports car. And well nothing is affordable about it.

I think it will be another decade before we see a proper fun to drive E car. The large companies have to feed the world's SUV appetite first and foremost.

As for fun to drive cars now, we will just have to make our own! It could be my imagination but young car owners are modding their cars more these days. It reminds me of when the fast and the furious franchise booted up.
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      10-20-2020, 05:04 PM   #76
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Agreed 100% OP. I feel like I'm one of the only people I know who feel similarly. BMW used to be that brand that consistently offered engaging fun-to-drive vehicles throughout their entire portfolio, no matter how small the engine. The M2 seems to be the only vehicle left that preserves that philosophy. It's not exactly light weight, but at 3600 lbs and 400 hp it's quite the nimble and dramatic little car.

Over at Porsche even a Boxster S with premium pkg is over $80k these days. Gone are the days of a reasonably priced Boxster. So otherwise you're really just left with the Giulia, Corvette, and Supra, however the Giulia lacks a model in the M340 power/price range. It's either economy car engine or full on QF.

Things do not look good for enthusiasts. The general public only cares about straight line acceleration, screens/tech, and even moral smugness; all just for bragging rights. Governments are very clearly trying to legislate the ICE powertrain out of existence.

There is no way an EV can replicate the handling of a RWD 911 or mid-engined sports car. Their weight balance isn't the same, their actual curb weight is too high, the lack of noise kills any drama, and the lack of even flappy paddles removes you entirely from the experience. No thanks from me!
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      10-20-2020, 05:06 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I don't get the M2, it's basically same weight as the m3 so why do i want the smaller car? It's also a heavy, expensive sedan not a light weight tossable steerer. Closest we have is FRS but that engine blows....
For whatever reason that shorter wheelbase and a different engineering philosophy make the M2 feel like an entirely different car.
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      10-20-2020, 05:08 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by See5 View Post
...is not an "affordable" enthusiast car.
Loaded at an MSRP in the low $60ks is very reasonable. Your average dad mobile 5-series or mommy X5 have higher MSRPs.
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      10-20-2020, 06:17 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Gone are the days of a reasonably priced Boxster.
I'm not sure those days ever existed. Today a base Boxster costs $62k. I know you mentioned the S, but the base model does exist and still drives wonderfully as well. The regular S is $74k.

When the Boxster first came out in 97' the price was also high. I found an old C/D article from 2000, testing out the 986 S, and they quoted $42k for the base 986 Boxster, and $51k for the 986 Boxster S. This is the same year you could also get a Z3 M Roadster for a small bit more than a base Boxster. With inflation and 20-years, those go to ~$63k and $77k, pretty much in line with today's pricing. In the article they also mentioned that the car was a lot of money, but of course also worth it because well... Porsche.

Point being, the Boxster never was affordable or reasonably priced, it was simply affordable by Porsche standards, making it the "affordable" Porsche. Even today, the base 992 911 carries a $40k upcharge from the base 982 Cayman/Boxster, making the 718 still the "affordable Porsche" (not including the Macan).

Here's a funny quote from an old C/D comparison between the Z3M Roadster, SLK32 AMG, Corvette, and Boxster S from 2001.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Car and Driver
And Porsche has gotten a little greedy at the cash register. The steep $51,484 base price doesn't include leather, cruise control, or a CD player. Add these elemental comforts, and you're at $55,571. Stability management is another $1215. Keep ticking boxes, and it's possible to rack up a $90,000 tab. Of course, the only folks humming along to a $90,000 Boxster's tune are doing so while pedaling a Schwinn or Huffy.
Just take a look below at this window stick from 1998. $52k, and this wasn't even an S, just a fairly optioned base Boxster.

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      10-20-2020, 06:36 PM   #80
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Adjusted for inflation, cars are about the same they were 20 years ago.

Entry level is the Miata and Gt86.
If you want a budget driver's car, there's the GTI, or Veloster N hot hatch.
Next price point is muscle cars at 45k with the Mustang and Camaro, while big, drive pretty well.
65k range is Supra, 75k is base model Corvette.
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      10-20-2020, 07:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
I'm not sure those days ever existed. Today a base Boxster costs $62k. I know you mentioned the S, but the base model does exist and still drives wonderfully as well. The regular S is $74k.

When the Boxster first came out in 97' the price was also high. I found an old C/D article from 2000, testing out the 986 S, and they quoted $42k for the base 986 Boxster, and $51k for the 986 Boxster S. This is the same year you could also get a Z3 M Roadster for a small bit more than a base Boxster. With inflation and 20-years, those go to ~$63k and $77k, pretty much in line with today's pricing. In the article they also mentioned that the car was a lot of money, but of course also worth it because well... Porsche.

Point being, the Boxster never was affordable or reasonably priced, it was simply affordable by Porsche standards, making it the "affordable" Porsche. Even today, the base 992 911 carries a $40k upcharge from the base 982 Cayman/Boxster, making the 718 still the "affordable Porsche" (not including the Macan).

[/IMG]
My argument against the whole "this car was just as expensive when adjusted for inflation" argument is that salaries have obviously not kept up with inflation to make up for it. If you made X salary 20 yrs ago it went way further than that money does today. Home prices, student loans, etc. have gotten exponentially more expensive as well. So these cars do feel more out of reach as time has progressed in my opinion.
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      10-20-2020, 09:25 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
My argument against the whole "this car was just as expensive when adjusted for inflation" argument is that salaries have obviously not kept up with inflation to make up for it. If you made X salary 20 yrs ago it went way further than that money does today. Home prices, student loans, etc. have gotten exponentially more expensive as well. So these cars do feel more out of reach as time has progressed in my opinion.
This is a valid argument.

I was just looking at the price of the car themselves, if you take into the entirety of socioeconomic status you can also factor in maintenance items, insurance and gas.

Would make for some interesting data.
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      10-20-2020, 11:49 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
My argument against the whole "this car was just as expensive when adjusted for inflation" argument is that salaries have obviously not kept up with inflation to make up for it. If you made X salary 20 yrs ago it went way further than that money does today. Home prices, student loans, etc. have gotten exponentially more expensive as well. So these cars do feel more out of reach as time has progressed in my opinion.
Nope, but houses are 3x as much...so we got that going for us.
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      10-21-2020, 08:15 AM   #84
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It's been proven time and time again that the "salaries not keeping up with inflation" thing is a complete and utter myth. They have kept up, even exceeded.
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      10-21-2020, 10:34 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by //Melon View Post
This is a valid argument.

I was just looking at the price of the car themselves, if you take into the entirety of socioeconomic status you can also factor in maintenance items, insurance and gas.

Would make for some interesting data.
Yeah for sure. I sort of went on a tangent unrelated to the car pricing itself. But valid nonetheless.
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      10-21-2020, 10:36 AM   #86
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Quote:
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It's been proven time and time again that the "salaries not keeping up with inflation" thing is a complete and utter myth. They have kept up, even exceeded.
Depends on the profession I suppose. In my field (Medicine) salaries have either stayed the same or decreased over the years, with student loans have gone up 400% since the '90s. An E39 M5 was easily attainable then, whereas an M5 today one would have to think a million times and wait many years.
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      10-21-2020, 11:23 AM   #87
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The Alfa-Romeo 4C is such a sports car. It's so sporty that you have to use a funnel to fill your windshield washer fluid. So sporty you have to store any luggage on the passenger seat since there is no front compartment and the back compartment next to the engine is tiny. So sporty that you have to have the dexterity of a seamstress to put up the canvas top. Not so bad during a nice day but hope it doesn't rain. Do they even come with SAT NAV or back up camera yet? So sporty you would gain good upper body strength while maneuvering in a parking lot. It looks cool though!
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      10-21-2020, 01:28 PM   #88
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They are not cheap though, prices have risen sharply since they ere discontinued, need $80K here for a decent one.
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