BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos
 
INDustry distribution
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-18-2020, 09:14 AM   #23
Tambohamilton
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
700
Rep
1,894
Posts

Drives: E91 330d
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Wiltshire, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You win:

"The interior is poorly outfitted and cramped, there's almost zero room for cargo, and you can forget about fancy infotainment features and driver-assistance tech."

Per Car and Driver.

Oh, and it's an Alfa, the epitome of build quality and reliability...
But aren't these things which c&d point out as missing, exactly what the OP doesn't want to have?
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 09:18 AM   #24
340iGUY
Enlisted Member
11
Rep
40
Posts

Drives: 340i manual
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

People want luxury amenities in their cars and it adds to the weight.
Strip down the M2.
Appreciate 3
Efthreeoh8063.50
Murf9935247.50

      10-18-2020, 09:32 AM   #25
SteveinArizona
Colonel
United_States
1729
Rep
2,551
Posts

Drives: BMW 530e
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Greater Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
Off topic.
There's a man called Khan in London who's trying to price cars out of the capital with doubling the 'congestion' charge, taking it much further out and bringing in a 'ulez' next year to fund his outrageous spending on well...getting rid of cars.
Removing this person and having a motoring lobby in Parliament is the absolute priority in enjoying the performance car of your choice whether its an Alpine or a mini van.
Why are you stating his name rather than his role/title? He is the Mayor of London.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 09:54 AM   #26
5.M0NSTER
Major
5.M0NSTER's Avatar
United_States
1711
Rep
1,400
Posts

Drives: 2017 BMW M2 6MT Drivers Pack
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany

iTrader: (0)

Forced Induction or engine swapped Miata FTW
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 09:57 AM   #27
Efthreeoh
Lieutenant General
United_States
8064
Rep
15,113
Posts

Drives: E90 & Z4 Coupe
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MARLAND

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
But aren't these things which c&d point out as missing, exactly what the OP doesn't want to have?
Well really, his post is self answering. Ariel makes a "car" called the Nomad Sport. It's basically a 2-seat, tubular frame, bodyless sports car with a Honda 2.4L K24 engine. 1,450 LBS., 230 HP, 0 - 60 in 3.5 seconds. Base price is $80K. It has 3-pedals, a steering wheel, a couple of gauges, a windshield with wiper and that's about it. Buy a motorcycle helmet, rainsuit and heated vest and you can drive it most days.

But it takes dedication. Most people want and can afford a car that has a trunk, carries people and cargo, and keeps them warm and dry.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-18-2020 at 10:09 AM..
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 09:58 AM   #28
Murf993
Major
Murf993's Avatar
5248
Rep
1,120
Posts

Drives: Porsche 993
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 10:08 AM   #29
chassis
Captain
chassis's Avatar
United_States
638
Rep
789
Posts

Drives: BMW G01 X3, M-B GLE350W4
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Indiana

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
TargaM2 Your passion for this topic is admirable. How would you answer the questions you raise?
Appreciate 2
Murf9935247.50
Efthreeoh8063.50

      10-18-2020, 05:21 PM   #30
TargaM2
MAD MINI MODIFYER
TargaM2's Avatar
Australia
265
Rep
170
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Feb 2008

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
TargaM2 Your passion for this topic is admirable. How would you answer the questions you raise?
Well the only real option i see is wait till the new Alpine is a couple of years old & pick up a used one, although the used prices are almost as new atm. Not interested in anything older than my M2 as ive been there & done that. Cars like 4C dont interest me as i dont like the hairdresser look. The Yaris GR4 is an awesome little car but im getting a little old for that (make a great track car though). Only other options i see is a used 981 Cayman S but they are still pricey here. The new shape V6 Exige is another option but again they are quite pricey here. My point is this continued approach of bigger/heavier & more power is rubbish if you want a true drivers car. First world problems hey.
__________________
www.tarmacperformance.com
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 05:29 PM   #31
Murf993
Major
Murf993's Avatar
5248
Rep
1,120
Posts

Drives: Porsche 993
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TargaM2 View Post
Well the only real option i see is wait till the new Alpine is a couple of years old & pick up a used one, although the used prices are almost as new atm. Not interested in anything older than my M2 as ive been there & done that. Cars like 4C dont interest me as i dont like the hairdresser look. The Yaris GR4 is an awesome little car but im getting a little old for that (make a great track car though). Only other options i see is a used 981 Cayman S but they are still pricey here. The new shape V6 Exige is another option but again they are quite pricey here. My point is this continued approach of bigger/heavier & more power is rubbish if you want a true drivers car. First world problems hey.
The Cayman S is sort of exactly what you seemed to day you didn't want in your first post. I'm not putting Porsche down because I'm a big fan but I'm a bit confused. Unless I read it wrong what you originally said you wanted was something like the Alfa or a Lotus.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 05:41 PM   #32
TheDudeMan
Private First Class
73
Rep
195
Posts

Drives: 20' 330i & RX 350
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: SF Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Cheap performance cars don't exist because of regulation. It's difficult for manufacturers to justify the cost to develop niche affordable sports cars. Look the the BRZ/FRS sales. These numbers just don't support the effort. In addition, when the car is released, everyone complains about everything and doesn't buy it lol.

Year sold
2012 4,144
2013 8,587
2014 7,504
2015 5,296
2016 4,141
2017 4,131
2018 3,834
2019 2,334
2020 1,746
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 06:15 PM   #33
RugbyBro
Private First Class
RugbyBro's Avatar
93
Rep
159
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

What defines a “true” enthusiast or “true” drivers car?
__________________
F82 - Current
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 06:28 PM   #34
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
3674
Rep
8,633
Posts

Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDudeMan View Post
Cheap performance cars don't exist because of regulation. It's difficult for manufacturers to justify the cost to develop niche affordable sports cars. Look the the BRZ/FRS sales. These numbers just don't support the effort. In addition, when the car is released, everyone complains about everything and doesn't buy it lol.

Year sold
2012 4,144
2013 8,587
2014 7,504
2015 5,296
2016 4,141
2017 4,131
2018 3,834
2019 2,334
2020 1,746
Because it's a crap car. The motor is horrible, with a huge torque dip that no amount of tuning can fix. The steering isn't great, the interior isn't great, it has a clock from a 1987 Corolla. I've gone twice to buy one and just can't do it.

What would honestly be great is a return to the Z3. Rwd, manual, oh, who am I kidding, never happen, not from the BMW we have today.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 06:45 PM   #35
Darth One
drunk poster
Darth One's Avatar
United_States
4094
Rep
2,953
Posts

Drives: M4 GTS | E46 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Under the OP’s stated conditions (new, <$70k US, <1200kg) it’s pretty much the 4C and the Miata/Fiat 124. And the Alpine assuming they are in Australia or another market where it’s offered. That’s it.

The two main reasons why cars keep getting heavier is that people don’t buy light, minimally featured cars, and safety regulations.
Appreciate 1
Murf9935247.50

      10-18-2020, 07:04 PM   #36
JamesNoBrakes
Colonel
JamesNoBrakes's Avatar
1259
Rep
2,193
Posts

Drives: 428i xdrive GC
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDudeMan View Post
Cheap performance cars don't exist because of regulation. It's difficult for manufacturers to justify the cost to develop niche affordable sports cars. Look the the BRZ/FRS sales. These numbers just don't support the effort. In addition, when the car is released, everyone complains about everything and doesn't buy it lol.

Year sold
2012 4,144
2013 8,587
2014 7,504
2015 5,296
2016 4,141
2017 4,131
2018 3,834
2019 2,334
2020 1,746
I say no, it's because everyone wants a land yacht, they want 4 seats with lots of legroom, "oh I have to be able to take kids", they want a big trunk, they want lots of air conditioning, they want sunroofs, they want heated and cooled seats, they want auto transmissions, they want 20" wheels, and so on.

Even your own numbers point to the fact that it's not regulation, although as pointed out, the BRZ torque is really poor, they handicapped that car.

The 2-seat car can be built at the required weight just fine, it's just that no one wants a purely sports-car. Lots of people "say it", but they want it to cost 20-30K and be produced with economy of scale, not enough people are going to buy such a car with only enough room for 2 people and with such limited utility.

Hell, just fitting "americans" inside of the car requires massive overbuilt seats and cabin width...

And when you get that specialized and expensive, you might as well pony up for something faster and more capable, like a Cayman.

The days of the 914/6, Fiero, X 1/9, MR2 are not coming back, because no one wants it. You can buy a lightweight sports car, like a Lotus or a Morgan, you are just going to pay for it.
__________________
Dinan Shockware, Dinan F3x Swaybars, ACS Springs
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2020, 08:50 PM   #37
dradernh
Lieutenant Colonel
dradernh's Avatar
1059
Rep
1,964
Posts

Drives: 2017 M240i
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TargaM2 View Post
...what happened to all the true enthusiasts performance cars that were actually great to drive.
They're still out there; it's just that they're used cars, is all.

My take is that the 3 Series E36 hits the sweet spot in terms of moderate weight, availability of modifications, and, still, very good handling performance.

When I look at what I've poured into my F22 to make it a reasonably good-handling and performing car, I could have built the ne plus ultra of E36s.

Whatever – such is life – and it goes on, as it always has.
__________________
2017 M240i: MT, Sunroof Delete, EB, Leather, Driving Assistance Package, Heated Front Seats
TC Kline Coilover Kit; Wavetrac; Al Subframe Bushings; EDC/eLSD Delete; Coated 60mm Studs; Dinan V2 Piggyback & CAI; Rogue SSK; Orange MPerf BBK; Blue Schroth Quick Fit Pro
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2020, 05:15 AM   #38
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
4296
Rep
12,452
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
What defines a “true” enthusiast or “true” drivers car?
Even if anyone can really define what those terms mean, doesn't necessarily translate to the 'enthusiast' drives the 'driver's car'.

What we drive, may have to be far more practical and value for money. We make compromises.

Plus we are now in a different era, than when many smaller/lighter models were much more entertaining to drive. Simple fact, we typically want (or need) so much more out of our daily drives, than the cars of yesteryear.

Manufacturers know that, and provide the kit the market demands.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2020, 05:53 AM   #39
mmmmQuattro
Major
mmmmQuattro's Avatar
Australia
217
Rep
1,122
Posts

Drives: f83 / E93 335 / E70 X5 40d
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I was going to suggest the Alfa 4C as well.

Comes in at $96k Australian.

However, it only comes in Auto.

On an Australian Porsche forum, a guy that had one said it was much more focused than the Boxster. At 1035kg, it's lighter and cheaper than a base 718 Boxster, which comes in a manual.
But, who's going to buy a base 718, when the 4.0 is available - and then not tick a few options?
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2020, 08:43 AM   #40
Efthreeoh
Lieutenant General
United_States
8064
Rep
15,113
Posts

Drives: E90 & Z4 Coupe
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MARLAND

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Because it's a crap car. The motor is horrible, with a huge torque dip that no amount of tuning can fix. The steering isn't great, the interior isn't great, it has a clock from a 1987 Corolla. I've gone twice to buy one and just can't do it.

What would honestly be great is a return to the Z3. Rwd, manual, oh, who am I kidding, never happen, not from the BMW we have today.
I get to drive one anytime I want.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 2
Red Bread3674.00
ShocknAwe2717.50

      10-19-2020, 09:10 AM   #41
Alfisti
Lieutenant Colonel
1589
Rep
1,627
Posts

Drives: 2013 X3
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Australia is an odd market though. Regular CARS ARE QUITE REASONABLY PRICED BUT ANYTHING "PREMIUM" IS EYE BLEEDINGLY EXPENSIVE.

Sorry stupid caps.

911's are TWICE what they are here, it's insane. Mustang's are insanely expensive too.

I actually feel the market is quite well covered except for some cars just needing a bit more power, especially the Miata. Where it gets complicated is if you want 4 seats. It's Camaro, mustang or 911 and that's it and the two muscle cars are plenty heavy.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2020, 09:19 AM   #42
ShocknAwe
1Addict
ShocknAwe's Avatar
United_States
2718
Rep
7,341
Posts

Drives: E82 Mutt
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Charleston

iTrader: (22)

I'd love an Alpine. Started looking at getting a coxster recently. I like the new GTS. Porsche are so expensive though, better to buy them 2-5 years old CPO.

Also seriously considered the alfa 4c a couple times. Drove one and liked it. Didn't mind the lack of anything inside, I filled up the Italian Swear Word jar quickly enough. Good drivers car. Who needs infotainment in cars like these anyways? Junk that adds weight. Ultimately didn't buy it since I have two money pits already.

Doing weight reduction on my 1er. Might have to satisfy me long term.
__________________
2010 135i 6MT Jet Black
N54/3 Converted ///Mutt | BUILD THREAD | GARAGE SALE
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2020, 09:32 AM   #43
heavyD^2
Lieutenant Colonel
heavyD^2's Avatar
Canada
1510
Rep
1,552
Posts

Drives: X3M Competition
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Because it's a crap car. The motor is horrible, with a huge torque dip that no amount of tuning can fix. The steering isn't great, the interior isn't great, it has a clock from a 1987 Corolla. I've gone twice to buy one and just can't do it.

What would honestly be great is a return to the Z3. Rwd, manual, oh, who am I kidding, never happen, not from the BMW we have today.
While the engine is lacking there's not a better driver's car for the money. It is the closest car to the title of this thread as it's a sub-3000 lb RWD coupe that retails for under $30k USD. The reason it doesn't sell well is because people like to say on the internet all the time that they miss the days of pure, basic sports cars but when one is available they pick it apart mercilessly for not having the refinement, acceleration, and tech of more expensive and heavy cars. Cars from automakers that they bemoan everyday for "losing their way" making these fast, high tech, heavy , and expensive vehicles that people actually buy. Subaru is supposedly putting in a 2.4L 4-Cylinder in the next gen version that should cure the torque dip issue but these cars will still sell poorly. Supposed car enthusiasts IMO are amongst the biggest groups of hypocrites on the internet.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2020, 09:35 AM   #44
Efthreeoh
Lieutenant General
United_States
8064
Rep
15,113
Posts

Drives: E90 & Z4 Coupe
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MARLAND

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
While the engine is lacking there's not a better driver's car for the money. It is the closest car to the title of this thread as it's a sub-3000 lb RWD coupe that retails for under $30k USD. The reason it doesn't sell well is because people like to say on the internet all the time that they miss the days of pure, basic sports cars but when one is available they pick it apart mercilessly for not having the refinement, acceleration, and tech of more expensive and heavy cars. Subaru is supposedly putting in a 2.4L 4-Cylinder in the next gen version that should cure the torque dip issue but these cars will still sell poorly. Supposed car enthusiasts IMO are amongst the biggest groups of hypocrites on the internet.
I don't care what you try to do to it, but a flat-4 boxer engine just can't be made to sound good.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:02 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST