AST 4200 & Vorshlag Camber Plate Review

[mastek]

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

It is a single tube, monotube. It essentially has a reservoir in line
at the base of the shock. In circle track world they call it a base
valve. And it is pressurized.

A twin tube has concentric tubes and oil flows from one tube to the
other. In between the two tubes is a valve usually called a foot
valve. Twin tubes are rarely pressurized but those that are have the
gas mixed in the oil. That is called emulsion. AST 4200 keeps the gas
and oil separated.

Interesting.
So you can have a double-adjustable monotube without an external canister ......
And you can have a double-adjustable twin-tube without an external canister?
So in simpler terms its either 2 tubes stacked on top of eachother - or 2 tubes next to eachother, to make a double-adjustable single shock, correct?
Is one design considered superior to the other? By logical deduction, i would think the twin-tube system is a less complex design and more reliable, but the lack of pressure would make them slower, no?
Are most external reservoir 4-ways monotube or twin-tube, or is there no choice?
I could go on forever here....
Thanks for the lesson, professor

[RickyBobby]

Originally Posted by m_parade

Would you say this setup is comparable/more advanced than the KW Clubsport?

Update: I got the shock back from AST and I'm back in business! It was just a bad seal.

I've never driven a KW CS on a comperable M3 so it's hard to say which is better. They're both good shocks and can handle proper spring rates so I think it would come down to the driver experience and ability to set them up properly. I think the AST's have a wider range of adjustment and feel a bit more crisp and quicker reacting, but again my experience with the KW's is on evo's and STI's. Anyone for a shootout?

[mastek]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

Update: I got the shock back from AST and I'm back in business! It was just a bad seal.

I've never driven a KW CS on a comperable M3 so it's hard to say which is better. They're both good shocks and can handle proper spring rates so I think it would come down to the driver experience and ability to set them up properly. I think the AST's have a wider range of adjustment and feel a bit more crisp and quicker reacting, but again my experience with the KW's is on evo's and STI's. Anyone for a shootout?

Nice - so far so good, on AST's promise for quick turn around and attentive Customer Service.
We are awaiting our e36m3 AST4200 Kit Friday, cant wait to install.

I would totally do a shootout with you at a familiar track -- but no KW CS here. And im sure your setup is faster then the GC Kit I have due to the OE shocks

[RickyBobby]

Originally Posted by mastek

Nice - so far so good, on AST's promise for quick turn around and attentive Customer Service.
We are awaiting our e36m3 AST4200 Kit Friday, cant wait to install.

I would totally do a shootout with you at a familiar track -- but no KW CS here. And im sure your setup is faster then the GC Kit I have due to the OE shocks

Congrats on the ast's! You're going to love them. We need to combine the parts of our two cars to make a monster e90. AP's and LSD please.

On another note my car is on the alignment rack right now. -3.5 degrees camber with the vorshlag plates.

[al_bundy]

This question may go slide a bit off topic, but I checked AST-USA's website and it says they offer rebuild services. Does anyone know the rebuild rate on these? Like do we need to rebuild every few years or it depends on how harsh you use it (i.e., extended track session v. granny cruising) or how crap the roads are in your area?

Thanks very much in advance!

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by al_bundy

This question may go slide a bit off topic, but I checked AST-USA's website and it says they offer rebuild services. Does anyone know the rebuild rate on these? Like do we need to rebuild every few years or it depends on how harsh you use it (i.e., extended track session v. granny cruising) or how crap the roads are in your area?

Thanks very much in advance!

Rebuilds run around $200 per damper and can vary depends on what is replaced during the rebuild.

If I remember correctly AST, Koni and Ohlins enineers all agreed on about 2 years of street driving or about 30k miles.

You don't have to rebuild them at the recommended time frame, but the dampers won't be at its maximum efficiency is all.

[mastek]

Harold, had a few questions from an earlier post:

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

It is a single tube, monotube. It essentially has a reservoir in line
at the base of the shock. In circle track world they call it a base
valve. And it is pressurized.

A twin tube has concentric tubes and oil flows from one tube to the
other. In between the two tubes is a valve usually called a foot
valve. Twin tubes are rarely pressurized but those that are have the
gas mixed in the oil. That is called emulsion. AST 4200 keeps the gas
and oil separated.

Interesting.
So you can have a double-adjustable monotube without an external canister ......
And you can have a double-adjustable twin-tube without an external canister?
So in simpler terms its either 2 tubes stacked on top of eachother - or 2 tubes next to eachother, to make a double-adjustable single shock, correct?
Is one design considered superior to the other? By logical deduction, i would think the twin-tube system is a less complex design and more reliable, but the lack of pressure would make them slower, no?
Are most external reservoir 4-ways monotube or twin-tube, or is there no choice?
I could go on forever here....
Thanks for the lesson, professor

[Mechatrosonic]

Ricky thanks for giving us good impression. I'm very interested in AST suspension systems, where did you buy it? And when you set them up or have minor trouble which shop do you go to ask for help?
What rates of springs did you choose? From your great experience and impression, those made me interested in AST. I am running with KW Variant3 but it seems not so good and not too bad. If I buy AST, I must be the 1st customer of AST in Asia. I wanna really make my M3 comfortable on street and agressive on the track. I know even if I get suspensions, I can't set them up properly, AST can't work perfectly and just same as losing money. I was just wondering who and which shop would be able to set AST up for me in Tokyo. A shop sells Moton near Tokyo but mechanics and shopper are sucks. So I'll never go for setting up.
Where can I buy AST4000 or 5000 series for M3?

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by mastek

Interesting.
So you can have a double-adjustable monotube without an external canister ......
And you can have a double-adjustable twin-tube without an external canister?
So in simpler terms its either 2 tubes stacked on top of eachother - or 2 tubes next to eachother, to make a double-adjustable single shock, correct?
Is one design considered superior to the other? By logical deduction, i would think the twin-tube system is a less complex design and more reliable, but the lack of pressure would make them slower, no?
Are most external reservoir 4-ways monotube or twin-tube, or is there no choice?
I could go on forever here....
Thanks for the lesson, professor

And you can have a double-adjustable twin-tube without an external canister?

- Yes, Konis are twin tube double adjustable.

So in simpler terms its either 2 tubes stacked on top of eachother - or 2 tubes next to eachother, to make a double-adjustable single shock, correct?

- Not exactly. 2 tubes concentric is a twin tube. A monotube is one tube with a valve in between. We don't call that two tubes.

Is one design considered superior to the other? By logical deduction, i would think the twin-tube system is a less complex design and more reliable, but the lack of pressure would make them slower, no?

- Twin tube was designed in WWII. It is less complex and when it is broken you don't know because it just leaks internally from one tube to the other. Pressure in a monotube keeps the oil from frothing.

Are most external reservoir 4-ways monotube or twin-tube, or is there no choice?

The only 4 way twin tube is a Sachs or an Ohlins TTX. I wouldn't even categorize them as a twin tube because they cost $12k. I think Moton might be the only monotube 4 way.

[al_bundy]

What kind of warranties do these come with?

[RickyBobby]

All of the data that I have collected all came together beautifully this weekend at Thunderhill and I knocked a full second off of my last visit. I have the entire system dialed in now and have to say that this is by far the best setup I've owned!

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

All of the data that I have collected all came together beautifully this weekend at Thunderhill and I knocked a full second off of my last visit. I have the entire system dialed in now and have to say that this is by far the best setup I've owned!

That is great to hear!

I am waiting for my 4200's to show up for my newly aquired 1M.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

All of the data that I have collected all came together beautifully this weekend at Thunderhill and I knocked a full second off of my last visit. I have the entire system dialed in now and have to say that this is by far the best setup I've owned!

awesome review. keep us posted on the continued track times. How do they feel on the street and how easy are they to adjust between the 2. Glad your enjoying the suspension, enjoy the summer

[flipm3]

thanks for the consistent updates on the coilovers! i've only been hearing positive things regarding the ASTs for both the E46 M3 and now E9X M3. i am strongly moving to the AST's for my own E46, and potentially for my E90.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

And you can have a double-adjustable twin-tube without an external canister?

- Yes, Konis are twin tube double adjustable.

So in simpler terms its either 2 tubes stacked on top of eachother - or 2 tubes next to eachother, to make a double-adjustable single shock, correct?

- Not exactly. 2 tubes concentric is a twin tube. A monotube is one tube with a valve in between. We don't call that two tubes.

Is one design considered superior to the other? By logical deduction, i would think the twin-tube system is a less complex design and more reliable, but the lack of pressure would make them slower, no?

- Twin tube was designed in WWII. It is less complex and when it is broken you don't know because it just leaks internally from one tube to the other. Pressure in a monotube keeps the oil from frothing.

Are most external reservoir 4-ways monotube or twin-tube, or is there no choice?

The only 4 way twin tube is a Sachs or an Ohlins TTX. I wouldn't even categorize them as a twin tube because they cost $12k. I think Moton might be the only monotube 4 way.

Thanks for the info

[rzm3]

Hey Ricky, will you provide some info for this thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...71&postcount=8

[madmaxhk]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

I have been running the AST 4200 coilovers with Vorshlag camber plates since October and wanted to post a quick review. I stumbled on the AST brand when I was at a track day last year and got a ride along in a 135i that had AST 5300’s (triple adjustable remote reservoir shocks). The handling and ride quality totally blew me away! As an instructor for 8+ years, I have experienced all kinds of cars and setups, and the 5300’s were one of the best I’ve felt! I spoke with the owner of the car a bit and learned that he operated a local shop with his father called BRracing and the 135i was one of their project cars.

BRracing
A few months later, I checked out their shop and was very impressed. They weren’t just your average repair shop, but a fully capable, knowledgeable race shop with practical experience. I also noticed that my car was the cheapest car in the joint so they must be doing something right. A few emails and phone calls later, I ordered up a set of AST's and became the M3 beta tester.

Vorshlag Camber plates
They work.. High quality, easy adjustment and NO NOISE. What more can you ask for? I arrive at the track, jack up the front of the car, loosen 3 bolts and max out the camber to -3.5 deg. Front end grip is phenominal with the additional camber. Tire wear is even and tire temps are right where I want them.
Vorshlag as a company was awesome to deal with and were very patient with me as I hounded them for various spacers and top rings to get M3 application just right (which we did).
This is the first upper mount that I've ever owned that doesn't make any noise.


AST 4200’s
I daily drive my M3, but still want a setup that is more track focused. The beauty of the AST’s is that even though they are very capable on the track, they also behave very well on the street when dialed down. And just like the Vorshlag plates. They don’t make any noise! This is an important point for me. For the 1st time ever, I have a track capable car that doesn’t sound like a popcorn machine.


While not quite as trick as the 5300's, on track the 4200's feels very crisp with well controlled body motion. The shocks react quickly and absorb bumps without upsetting the chassis. Each click of adjustment makes a difference that you can feel in the balance of the car.
I just got back from the NASA TT season opener at Infineon and was pleasantly surprised to muster up a 1:53 with a baby seat in the back . Of course my GoPro died just before that session but I’ll try and dig up something from the morning run and post it up shortly.


Here are some pictures.
#1 shows the AST rear spring perch that sits right inside the stock cup. One attention to detail includes a small rubber ring for noise isolation. Oddly enough they leave the bottom of the spring right on the bare metal of the lower control arm, but as I mentioned, no noise here.
#2 shows the compression adjustor on the bottom of the front shock. Easy enough to reach with the wheels at full lock.
#3 shows the rear compression adjustor. It's reacheable with the car on the ground if you snake your hand behind the back tire. Don't even think about it after a hot session though.
#4 Look closely at the sway bar end link tab. Notice that it is adjustable on the shock. Nice detail, although moot here because the stock end links are too long and won't work. I got shorter links from Turner. Vorshlag camber plate up top.

Hi RickyBobby,

Thanks for the review. Can you post a photo of the front strut tower? I would like to see how much caster can you go?

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by madmaxhk

Hi RickyBobby,

Thanks for the review. Can you post a photo of the front strut tower? I would like to see how much caster can you go?

At least 8 degrees at the max setting.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by mastek

Nice - so far so good, on AST's promise for quick turn around and attentive Customer Service.
We are awaiting our e36m3 AST4200 Kit Friday, cant wait to install.

I would totally do a shootout with you at a familiar track -- but no KW CS here. And im sure your setup is faster then the GC Kit I have due to the OE shocks

Mastek, did you install your ASTs yet?

[HP Autosport]

We should have our 4200's for our project 1M any day now!

[mastek]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Mastek, did you install your ASTs yet?

Yes -- and we knocked off 4 seconds of our record at Infineon (1:47.3) with our e36 Race Car (300 rwhp - 2700 lbs w/o fuel/driver)
These shocks are great -- easy to setup and very consistent -- very happy with them so far.

[dawgdog]

I have been looking into these dampers but there are very few people running them so I have not been able to get a lot of information. Still have not been able to determine if my Volk TE 37s 9.5x18" et 28 wheels will clear the strut with the 5000 series which seems better suited for this heavy car. I run 275 tires up front. I could use a spacer, but I'm not sure it will work even with the spacer. And though I only started going to the track 3 years ago I go whenever I can so more than 6-8 events/year.

I would like to see photo of these shocks with the sleeves needed to use it with our cars as the e9xM3 version is no longer available. My other issue is trying to put together the right spring rate etc as it would seem to be guesswork for someone with as little experience in this area as I have.

Having said this I am still interested as my friend has these on his 330 and he is scary fast in that car and loves them. They are the 3rd or 4th suspension he has tried on the car.

I do wonder how these would compare to the KW Clubsport where the integrated kit seems to take a lot of the guesswork out of the equation.