Porsche vs bmw M handling

[ES_TRADER]

I've only read that pcars handle waaay better than bimmers. Is this really true? And if so, by how much of a margin? And what's the difference really?

[E92TTKING]

ib4flamewar

[elh0102]

If you are referring to the 911 and Boxster/Cayman platform cars, then yes, they handle better, and more noticeable, they feel better. The communication of suspension, brakes, and steering are all better. But this is nothing new, and when a lighter, lower, stiffer sports car is compared to the higher and heavier sedan, that is the result. And it takes nothing from the M3, just a different class. With that said, the M3 is the easier car to drive quickly, and one of the most forgiving cars ever.

[attila]

Originally Posted by richpuer

I've only read that pcars handle waaay better than bimmers. Is this really true? And if so, by how much of a margin? And what's the difference really?

My experience with Porsche is limited to the GT3RS. Which handles better than the e92 M3. Hard to put into word the differences but mainly it is sharper, stiffer, more precise. Your inputs are translated to action right away. The steering is way better, I mean more comunicative and precise. On the other hand as a DD the M3 is a better compromise. You have to push the RS to come alive, you cannot just cruise in it. Like, you have to "work" for it and then it is rewarding.
The spectrum from road car to race car is wide, and porsche has several different color in this, so you can find what you want.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Porsches handles much better, the end.

Elh0102 well said, except that a Boxster/Cayman platform are easier to drive quickly than the M3 (only the 911 isnt as easy to drive fast). They (cayman/boxster) may be the easiest cars to drive quickly in the world as they are just so dialed in from the get go compared to most cars.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=360305

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by elh0102

If you are referring to the 911 and Boxster/Cayman platform cars, then yes, they handle better, and more noticeable, they feel better. The communication of suspension, brakes, and steering are all better. But this is nothing new, and when a lighter, lower, stiffer sports car is compared to the higher and heavier sedan, that is the result. And it takes nothing from the M3, just a different class. With that said, the M3 is the easier car to drive quickly, and one of the most forgiving cars ever.

couldn't have said it better myself.

[crackberry]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

Porsche handles better.. the end. The steering in my Cayman S was telepathic!

so very true.

[wwjd15]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

Porsche handles better.. the end. The steering in my Cayman S was telepathic! When I switched to the M3, the first 2 weeks felt like I was driving a cadillac.

+1

[chris328i]

The M is a great car but it definitely does not handle like a Porsche - any Porsche.

[bobbyd1961]

i dont know never drove a porsche but ive seen comparisons on car and driver go look for your self. i think they said bmw all the way

[JOM3JO]

Depends on driver...Both handle great! THE end!!

[gasterus]

I think the 911s are great cars with generations of continuous evolution. But, the performance race is so competitive an M3 has become a direct competition to a entry level 911 carrera. Porsche edges out in the weight department giving more agility compare to the M3. But interms of handling and performance i think both is very close.

[pbonsalb]

There is a substantial weight difference, in favor of the Porsche. If you stripped an E9x of 500 lbs of grand touring luxury, it would do much better but you might not want to daily drive it.

[Dave07997S]

Having owned both (07 997S) the nod goes to the Porsche, but not by the margin that some of you have posted. To be behind on the Nurburgring by 5-10 seconds is not that bad when you consider it takes almost 8 minutes to complete the circuit +- a few seconds. For the M3 to do this in a coupe that is some 250lbs heavier with more compromise is a darn good thing.

Also, to get the 911 to do this you have to really know what you are doing. The M3 chassis seems more forgiving.

Now if you are going to be going the GT3 route, different story. You basically have a race car that is street legal. There isn't a M car that competes with the GT2/3 series of the 911, period.

BTW, why is Porsche doing so badly in Grand Am? I thought when they switched over to the 3.8L S this year they would be competitive. Its all BMW and Ford. I'm serious, not trying to stir things up..but why aren't they doing better?

Dave

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by shift@red

... That equates to 1 second per minute of each minute of the entire lap. We all know a 1 second advantage on even a 2 minute lap is pretty significant.
...

In the hands of a professional, whos career is made or broken by fractions of a second per minute - yes, that's a big difference.

To a 'mere mortal', the handling difference boils down to 'how the car feels' - with little quantitative significance.

Significant to one person, is meh to another.

-scheherazade

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

In the hands of a professional, whos career is made or broken by fractions of a second per minute - yes, that's a big difference.

To a 'mere mortal', the handling difference boils down to 'how the car feels' - with little quantitative significance.

Significant to one person, is meh to another.

-scheherazade

Bingo..I doubt anyone on this board will be able to do a sub 8min Nurburgring run regardless of the vehicle.

Dave

[elh0102]

Having owned them all, I thought the Cayman S was the best feeling car I’ve ever driven. But,
brakes were a little disappointing on track, down on power, and no LSD (available now). 997S was a great car, but also no LSD at the time. The dragster-style front/rear tire combo helped the snap oversteer characteristic, but results in a lot of on-throttle understeer, but manageable with practice. 996 GT3, absolutely great car for the track once properly set up; a pain anywhere else. The E92 M3 is noticeably more neutral than was the E46, heavy, but carries it well. Feel of steering and brakes isn’t equal to Porsche, but not bad, great driving seat (for me). Not a lot of torque, but adequate power at higher rpms. I was faster around the track in a C6 ZO6 than any of the above, in spite of the worst driving seat in the industry, lousy steering feedback, and a suspension that requires intense concentration. It has good brakes, great power and wonderfully neutral balance. They’re all fun. Buy what you enjoy.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Agreed, however I wasnt the one who said the difference was insignificant. Its apples to apple times where a pro WAS driving each car.
If it comes to feel, any Porsche has that in abundance over anything else available in the same segment.



Likely no, not in these two cars (but others, yes) but why even bring up the times at all? Not to be nit picky here, but your arguement first was 8 seconds was merely nothing. Now, when I prove that point wrong the arguement becomes 'no one will do it anyway'.

Sorry man I disagree with you disagreeing..

I don't feel you proved your point at all. To be behind only 1 sec. for every one minute on the track is not that great in the scheme of things in my eyes for a road car. In a competition yes, but not for an off the street road car. Not to mention a car that bases at 67% of what a base 997S goes for today, forget about a GT3 or GT2. I just feel you are looking at this at a different angle than me and quite a few others on this board. I have yet to see what a ZCP car will do on the ring, I'm sure it will narrow it down a bit. Now I know you are going to tell me that this is conjecture as it hasn't been done yet, but there are other tracks where the ZCP car has come out better.

Look I know there is no way I am going to convince you and there is no way you are going to convince me that the 997S is that much better in handling than the E92 M3 ZCP car. I owned both, and yes the 997.1S isn't as good as the 997.2S but it isn't that far off when it comes to times. So its not like I didn't own one and don't know what I am talking about.

In some respects I feel my E92 M3 handles better than my 997S did, well maybe better isn't the right word, but feels better in certain circumstances. Unless you are racing these cars this is all I have to go on.

Now like I said in my original response to the OP, I do feel any Porsche, excluding a Cayenne, handles better than the E9X M3. I stated it clearly, I just don't feel its as great as some of you lead on. I for one was underwhelmed when I got my 997S over my E46 M3, let alone my E92 M3. I am not alone who feel this way and try as you might to convince me and others, well we may just have different experience than you have. Also, I have to wonder why aren't you driving a PCar?

BTW, still haven't answered my question why BMW and Ford are cleaning Porsches clock in GrandAm this season. The M3's were cleaning everyones clock that GrandAm now limited the S65 powerplant in the series to a maximum of 8250rpm. I guess the M3s just handle so awful.

I said what I have to say, for those reading these posts will make up their own minds. I don't mean any disrespect to you at all Greg, I really do appreciate and respect your knowledge and input. Just disagree with you here.

Dave

[sensi09]

How do you guys define handling....transient response, stability?

I enjoy comparing ring times, but at the end of the day, who really cares if another car is 2 seconds faster. If I actually drove the ring on a regular basis and these times were attainable by me, then it might make a difference, but otherwise these are professional drivers who take more chances and are braver than I.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Fair enough if you feel that way, but track times really do not substantiate them being that close, esp with a .2.

And the .2 def improves on the 997.1 times.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/p..._facelift.html


No matter what, when talking performance cars, you ARE talking about minute amounts of time and fractions of this and that. A boxster/cayman, a turbo/s, or any GT car are way better handling and any 911 is still better and you can feel it IMO.
You seem to think the M3 doesnt have its own many flaws, when fact of the matter is, it does.
I do agree, any Porsche car other than the Cayenne handles better and even the cayenne will probably be close enough.
As for Grand Am (which I dont follow), you realize the M3 race cars are so far different from the street cars its not even worth listing all the things they change.
Again, when BMW becomes the most successful race company with the most successful car, come talk to me.

In all honestly, the cayman S may be the best handling car out there, and theres no denying its a far better handling car. Surely the best handling until you hit the 100+K threshold.

Greg, you are forgetting I already said the Porsche handles better. Of course the M3 has flaws, never said it didn't. Its just the 911S is just an incremental improvement over the M3, you get 99% of the performance of a 997S but at 69% of the price, I don't know how you can discount that.

As far as GrandAm yes they are converted street cars, in fact Turners buys the cars from a used car lot, and they rip the interiors out and race prep them but there is still a lot of the original car still in tact. Engines are pretty much OEM right from BMW except for a DME change to a Bosch race unit. You should really start watching it..great series.

Also, the Cayman S is the only Porsche that is competitive in the GS class for GrandAm.

In reality we really aren't disagreeing, cause once again I think the 997 handles better in the right hands. I just feel the M3 is the best bang for the buck if you want a high quality marquee brand of car and still have the practicality of a GT.

Dave

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by sensi09

How do you guys define handling....transient response, stability?

I enjoy comparing ring times, but at the end of the day, who really cares if another car is 2 seconds faster. If I actually drove the ring on a regular basis and these times were attainable by me, then it might make a difference, but otherwise these are professional drivers who take more chances and are braver than I.

+1

[sawzall]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

you get 99% of the performance of a 997S but at 69% of the price, I don't know how you can discount that.

This is the exact reason why I bought an M3. As a person who goes to the track only so often, i doubt i'd ever be able to squeeze that final percentage of performance of a 997 let alone an M3.

That being said, my experience with the 997.2 C2S was that handling was extremely sharp, better than the M3. It's a strange feeling cause the handling is so light (not so much the steering as the front end) and responsive. It makes my jaw drop when you can hit the apex, and put so much power down right after without turning the car right around.