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      11-20-2014, 04:51 PM   #67
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December Fastrack was just released.

F80/82 M3/M4 is in A-street.

2015 Mustang is in F-street.
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      11-20-2014, 08:56 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
December Fastrack was just released.

F80/82 M3/M4 is in A-street.

2015 Mustang is in F-street.
Excellent.

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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
I don't know, we've probably met or at least been at the same events sometime? I first autocrossed with THSCC back in the 70s! I've only been able to make 3-4 THSCC events the past two seasons with the M3. Prior to that I either took the M5 in ESP or co-drove with my daughter in her E46 ZHP before she left the area for college and now work. She drew me out of a car-slumber back in 2004 when she wanted to get into autocross and track.

I've never been to an event at Cherry Point yet but would like to make it down there soon...am an SCCA member though, but I mainly run events down in Charlotte (Zmax) or South Carolina (Michelin) where my daughter lives.

Here's a pic from Danville this year laying down Rival rubber in a nice long full throttle sweeper exit:
Nope, don't think we've crossed paths. (NCAC maybe?). We will. Soon. In FS. My STR Miata won't likely make it to next season. Come play at CP, you won't regret it. Ask around within THSCC.
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      11-21-2014, 11:19 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post

I'm now kicking around the idea of the M3 for autocross use...
Well, that happened.

Also, 2015 PAX was released today (.008 drop for FS):
http://home.comcast.net/~paxrtp/rtp2015.html
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      11-21-2014, 11:36 AM   #70
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Not that PAX is everything since you are still competing within class but that's a big boost for anyone running FS who is competing against the cream of crop in their club. Combine that with the bump up for STX and you have a 1.2% adjustment which is significant. Rexpelagi -- you may be seeing me over at Tour events at Wilmington and Toledo.
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      11-21-2014, 11:40 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by UNCbigM View Post
Excellent thread, with good information. A big ass front bar will definitely be my first purchase. I'll have the opportunity to shake my '11 E90 DST down in a few weeks at our last event of the season. Tires will certainly be a second purchase and a decision on whether to "convert" to ZCP or not from my 18's. A square tire size setup will likely be the way I'll go, and I have this thread to thank as I probably wouldn't have otherwise.

Chuck -- why don't I know you? I'm assuming you run with Tar Heel. Ever make it to Cherry Point with NCR SCCA?
I'm wondering how many folks figure they can jump to ZCP wheel or 18's with those widths. Don't you have to "convert" everything in the package including some of the electronic changes that came with the package to run as a clone.
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      11-21-2014, 11:47 AM   #72
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A) I've seen full suspension packages including electronics available for sale for about $1k; and,

B) Shocks are open, so in theory you can remove the electronic controlled dampers. If someone wants to protest me for not having a useless button on my console they can have a foot in their ass. Springs would technically need to be switched.

Am I missing anything else?
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      11-21-2014, 11:49 AM   #73
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I should also probably qualify my statement since I'm running mostly local/statewide and not nationals/tours. My focus is on road racing if I'm gonna take a weekend away from the family to race.
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      11-21-2014, 12:21 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCbigM View Post
A) I've seen full suspension packages including electronics available for sale for about $1k; and,

B) Shocks are open, so in theory you can remove the electronic controlled dampers. If someone wants to protest me for not having a useless button on my console they can have a foot in their ass. Springs would technically need to be switched.

Am I missing anything else?
In theory you'd have to have the EDC controls/wiring in place and the button (with the updated ZCP damper programming?), plus you would need to have the MDM mode programming updated to ZCP spec (I think? even though you won't use it ever), and the springs.

In practice, in local events, I don't think anyone will care much...unless you beat them of course.

I would like to switch to 9"/10" wheels myself though too...wonder how much of the above would actually have to be done other than the springs.
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      11-21-2014, 12:43 PM   #75
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Springs would be worth switching they are stiffer.

As for updating to the correct MdM software and adding the EDC wiring/button that's solidly in the weenie protest category. Personally I think the wheel rule in Street should allow best of breed wheels for every trim level to expand the pool and reduce the cost of potential "competitive" cars
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      11-21-2014, 12:47 PM   #76
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Chuck's going to protest me if I beat him on ZCP wheels? ;-)
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      11-21-2014, 01:19 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
By the by, the new Apex P40 replica comes in perfect 18" downsize sizes for ZCP cars, 18x9 et31 and 18x10 et25.
Having trouble finding these. Link?

Oh, and Dinan bar on its way for me!
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      11-21-2014, 01:32 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
In theory you'd have to have the EDC controls/wiring in place and the button (with the updated ZCP damper programming?), plus you would need to have the MDM mode programming updated to ZCP spec (I think? even though you won't use it ever), and the springs.

In practice, in local events, I don't think anyone will care much...unless you beat them of course.

I would like to switch to 9"/10" wheels myself though too...wonder how much of the above would actually have to be done other than the springs.
Therein lies the rub in that you have to switch everything in the package over (excepting the suspenion which is swappable), not just the items which work for you. When I started looking into what the package had, it made it nearly implausible someone could do the switch.

As for local vs. regional vs. national events, I've always felt there is a bit a slippery slope when it comes to class compliance. When a competitor runs with illegal mods or we'll say in this case a car which not "completely legal" it puts me and his/her other competitors in the position of being the bad guy for pointing it out when they could have optioned out the right car. I doubt very seriously anyone is going to "put a foot up my ass" as I'm not an willing victim at 6'5"/280.

I'll add on more point -- there has already been a discussion on SCCAforums.com http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/445220/afpg/2 about whether the E90/E92 M3 should have been moved to FS and specifically talk about the Competition pack. The correctly pointed out you can't put the pack on any pre-2011 vehicle and would have to do the whole shebang if you did. I've run with Rich across class lines and feel we have some degree of mutual respect but disagree on it being a weenie protest because everyone can rationalize why a certain rule should not be in place. I spent the last 6 years running STR where guys on S2000 and Miata forums did exactly that to the nenth degree.
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      11-21-2014, 02:20 PM   #79
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Quote:
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When I started looking into what the package had, it made it nearly implausible someone could do the switch.

As for local vs. regional vs. national events, I've always felt there is a bit a slippery slope when it comes to class compliance. When a competitor runs with illegal mods or we'll say in this case a car which not "completely legal" it puts me and his/her other competitors in the position of being the bad guy for pointing it out when they could have optioned out the right car.
Yeah, exactly. Anyone running ZCP width wheels and springs can quickly be identified by VIN whether the car was built with the ZCP option using something like BMW Archive.org site unlike the old days on many cars when it was tough to find details quickly. If their car wasn't built with ZCP, the automatic assumption is that it's not legal unless they can prove otherwise. I don't know why this should be such an issue with anyone. If someone wants the rules changed, it should be taken to the SEB, or they should choose not to participate since they put *many* of their fellow competitors in a bind. Locally, I know there are many people who focus on PAX and would be very upset with a "cheater" however such rule breaking is or is not "valid" in the mind of that driver.

Personally, I agree that minor issues like programming you'll never use on an autox course are "stupid rules", but I'm never going to put other competitors in a position where they think I am cheating, no matter how "invalid" such "cheating" might be in the outcome. Rules are rules.

Quote:
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I doubt very seriously anyone is going to "put a foot up my ass" as I'm not an willing victim at 6'5"/280.
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      11-21-2014, 04:10 PM   #80
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Agreed. Without a rule change the same argument for ZCP would apply to a camaro guy retrofitting the good 1LE bits or Mustang with Boss stuff. That's what SP is for.

I just think the rule should allow wheels and wheels only because it's one of the few really high value predictors f autox performance behind weight and CG, and it sucks to have to buy the rare expensive car just to get a half inch of wheel width. The springs really don't matter that much for most platforms
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      11-21-2014, 10:20 PM   #81
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Never really understood no updating/backdating in stock class on the same platform--as long as one is not trying to change parts from a hi-po to base/regular model.

ZCP parts is the perfect example...

And, the M3/M4 F8X in A street is a cooked goose.
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      11-22-2014, 07:47 AM   #82
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Quote:
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And, the M3/M4 F8X in A street is a cooked goose.
Unless the course is a huge open one with long straights...have you seen how completely stock, on their standard Michelin PSS, they are running in the high 11s at 120mph in the 1/4? Insane.
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      11-22-2014, 08:55 AM   #83
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Quote:
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Never really understood no updating/backdating in stock class on the same platform--as long as one is not trying to change parts from a hi-po to base/regular model.

ZCP parts is the perfect example...

And, the M3/M4 F8X in A street is a cooked goose.
SCCA has always rewarded getting the right car with the right equipment for class or prepping your car to class in other divisions. UD/BD for wheels and any number of items has been sought and shot down in stock/street classes many times. As for the new M3/M4, I'm not sure the jury is not still out on this as the car to beat is the Vette Z06 unless it gets moved by comment in 2016. Where the Vette has the advantage is the front suspension has "camber" adjustment discs which can be removed to get much more negative camber and enjoys an double A arm chassis. Most top notch Vette guys swore the sky was falling with Street classes and discovered the car did damn well in class on streets when you adjust driving style.
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      11-22-2014, 04:33 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB/ZR-1 View Post
Never really understood no updating/backdating in stock class on the same platform--as long as one is not trying to change parts from a hi-po to base/regular model.

ZCP parts is the perfect example...

And, the M3/M4 F8X in A street is a cooked goose.
I have to vehemently disagree here. Update/backdate is a not a good idea in any class, especially stock. You end up with hacked up frankenstein cars that were never available from the factory. If there is some ridiculous combo that works, it basically becomes mandatory.

UD/BD has made some of the SP classes cost far more than they ever should - trying to track down unobtanium OE parts and mix this set of parts with that can make it more costly than SM, where you just go aftermarket and are done. I don't see UD/BD expanding anytime soon.
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      11-22-2014, 06:13 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post
I have to vehemently disagree here. Update/backdate is a not a good idea in any class, especially stock. You end up with hacked up frankenstein cars that were never available from the factory. If there is some ridiculous combo that works, it basically becomes mandatory.

UD/BD has made some of the SP classes cost far more than they ever should - trying to track down unobtanium OE parts and mix this set of parts with that can make it more costly than SM, where you just go aftermarket and are done. I don't see UD/BD expanding anytime soon.
Should have qualified this... Not talking wholesale changes, just simple bolt-on items like rim sizing, springs, calipers, etc.

I'm done w/ SM, but will feel a bit hand-tied in Street--but I need to simplify my life... lol

I was actually starting to think F80 M3 w/ the CC brakes, upgraded suspension & CF roof for double-duty (AutoX & DE) as a genuine FS contender, but in AS--no way, IMHO...
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      11-22-2014, 08:45 PM   #86
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Quote:
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Should have qualified this... Not talking wholesale changes, just simple bolt-on items like rim sizing, springs, calipers, etc.

I'm done w/ SM, but will feel a bit hand-tied in Street--but I need to simplify my life... lol

I was actually starting to think F80 M3 w/ the CC brakes, upgraded suspension & CF roof for double-duty (AutoX & DE) as a genuine FS contender, but in AS--no way, IMHO...
The F80 would have been a significant overdog IMO, and would quickly become the car to have. With FS doing well, putting a 70k+ car-to-have in the class would have been the wrong call. No one expects it to do well in AS, but that was the plan.
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      11-22-2014, 09:01 PM   #87
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I'm not so sure the F80 will be quicker on "most" typical autox courses than the E90. It's wider, longer, and has a FAT low to mid range torque curve. On street tires, it will take great patience and skill managing rear tire grip coming off elements, making minor throttle changes when loaded up, etc. The S65 flat torque curve really allows the E90 to hook up coming off elements, upshifting from 1-2 in the middle of an element, etc.

I'm contrasting it to my E39 M5 which has just a tad less peak power than the E90 M3, but has a fat, explosive mid-range with 74 ft-lbs more peak torque than the S65. That car just wants to spin its rears any place, any time, any chance you'll allow it to on course. The first time I autocrossed the M3, there was an offset gate right in the middle of the acceleration run from the start toward a Chicago box. The 1-2 upshift needed to occur right in the middle of that offset movement, and I continually amazed myself how I could pop a 1-2 there with just a bit of wheelspin and then quickly hook up the rears (using Rivals btw). If that was the M5, I would have instantly spun doing a maneuver like that, so I would have had to carefully manage that shift, be much smoother on the throttle/clutch, etc.

I'm guessing with the explosive torque of the S55, it won't be a cake-walk managing getting it to the ground effectively on most autox courses.

EDIT: lol, just read this thread in the F80 section about AWD option. Interesting to hear some of the comments about not being able to put down the power...
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      11-22-2014, 09:32 PM   #88
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There hp and torque vs useable hp and torque. There also needs to be good throttle modulation -- as in roll/not stomp throttle. The street tire switch from r-comps made this a real consideration in addition to tire to weight ratios and other considerations. If anyone wants to see my spreadsheet on cars in FS, it considered this, width, length and other factors all of which led to the decision to buy this car with these specs aside from the fact I've wanted an M
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