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      08-21-2018, 10:56 PM   #177
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Based on #2 and #6 from an earlier post, what you really need is karting time as there are far fewer variables and you can experiment with things that matter to driving. Skip a few driving events and instead get some time at your local karting track. The difference between you and the other drivers is that they know they can carry more speed into a corner even if it feels like they're at the limit. To really understand where the limit is with your setup you need to push the car at every corner until you spin. This is frowned upon at HPDEs but you can get away with it at most karting tracks.

Most of this thread seems to be solving one problem and introducing two different ones. You can throw parts at the car until you're bankrupt but I'm betting your lap times will stay mostly the same even with slick tires or more power since you haven't come up with a plan on what you need to improve on as a driver. Good luck.
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      08-21-2018, 11:00 PM   #178
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Lots of us run 18" Pirelli slicks and they are faster than all those tires and cost $400 for the set (race take offs).
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      08-21-2018, 11:45 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
What's your setup? All the guys I compete with in NASA that run E92's are all on 18's and they all have BBK. I am not challenging your facts just asking what BBK you run.
i didn't put it together until now, but this is his car.

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...ceramic+brakes
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      08-22-2018, 12:04 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I can't fit 18" over bbk.

Out of ignorance, I am not ready to say that 235/35 slick contributes more or less to understeer than 265/30 300 (ps4s) or 275/30 200 (ado8r).

But I would definitely know once I tried. I measure every lap and will be reporting what I find.

Even if my lap time is slower, I will be having fun trying to go as fast as the equipment will let me on that specific day.

Anyway, I take it that your feedback is that it would be better to try $2000 slick with the correct size rather than $1000 slick with slightly "improvised" size. So I do want to say thank you for your feedback and it may turn out that you are 100% correct. I am not saying it sarcastically. I sincerely appreciate your opinion.
the understeer is created in the bias. the front tread width is 2.5" narrower than the rear with those sizes. you're going to be asking the car to do the same turns with less grip in the front.
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      08-22-2018, 12:22 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Beef, my objective is not "trying to remove inconsistencies this whole time" . My car is very consistent and stable at almost all of my track days except one where i had the sway bars cranked to too stiff of a settings. My objective this year is to get to 1:36 range.
this entire thread has evolved into discussion about tuning your car's handling. my comment about removing inconsistencies was regarding things like tires. all of your suspension, tire pressure, and driving style changes become worthless when you throw in a wildcard like much higher grip tires with a larger bias.
so not only is your braking going to suffer, your mid corner speeds are going to be down, which also means less overall speed in the straights between the corners. the only thing that isn't going to be hurt is straight line acceleration.

its not the end of the world, but you compromised on tire size because of availability and now your car is going to handle very differently, and i'm going to predict you're not going to like it.
if you're ok with it, thats cool, but don't think you have a whole 'nother set of suspension problems to work out when the car doesn't handle well.

i know you already mentioned you want to do what you can with the equipment you selected, but let me offer an opinion- sell the carbon brakes, use that money to buy these (and the matching rear set);
https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...668372mm-e92m3
then, get a set of the 18x10.5" forged titan 7 wheels.
https://europeanautosource.com/titan...wheel-set.html
your tire choices and availability will increase tremendously.
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      08-22-2018, 03:09 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Beef, my objective is not "trying to remove inconsistencies this whole time" . My car is very consistent and stable at almost all of my track days except one where i had the sway bars cranked to too stiff of a settings. My objective this year is to get to 1:36 range.
this entire thread has evolved into discussion about tuning your car's handling. my comment about removing inconsistencies was regarding things like tires. all of your suspension, tire pressure, and driving style changes become worthless when you throw in a wildcard like much higher grip tires with a larger bias.
so not only is your braking going to suffer, your mid corner speeds are going to be down, which also means less overall speed in the straights between the corners. the only thing that isn't going to be hurt is straight line acceleration.

its not the end of the world, but you compromised on tire size because of availability and now your car is going to handle very differently, and i'm going to predict you're not going to like it.
if you're ok with it, thats cool, but don't think you have a whole 'nother set of suspension problems to work out when the car doesn't handle well.

i know you already mentioned you want to do what you can with the equipment you selected, but let me offer an opinion- sell the carbon brakes, use that money to buy these (and the matching rear set);
https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...668372mm-e92m3
then, get a set of the 18x10.5" forged titan 7 wheels.
https://europeanautosource.com/titan...wheel-set.html
your tire choices and availability will increase tremendously.
Thank you for your opinion and prediction.
to sum it up, you'r saying that 235 slick will be slower then Ado8r 275. You might be right and we shell see. I am curious about this myself.
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      08-22-2018, 04:22 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Thank you for your opinion and prediction.
to sum it up, you'r saying that 235 slick will be slower then Ado8r 275. You might be right and we shell see. I am curious about this myself.
yea, i think so. might feel ok for a lap or two, but with the power you're putting down, the weight of the car (and front weight bias), and how much grip you'll have in the rear, i think you'll start to scrub the front tires and overheat them.

in the beginning of this thread, you were pretty much trying to get rid of understeer (for the most part). you're going to have a lot of understeer with this setup.
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      08-22-2018, 06:29 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Thank you for your opinion and prediction.
to sum it up, you'r saying that 235 slick will be slower then Ado8r 275. You might be right and we shell see. I am curious about this myself.
yea, i think so. might feel ok for a lap or two, but with the power you're putting down, the weight of the car (and front weight bias), and how much grip you'll have in the rear, i think you'll start to scrub the front tires and overheat them.

in the beginning of this thread, you were pretty much trying to get rid of understeer (for the most part). you're going to have a lot of understeer with this setup.
Great.
We are now on the same page.
Took awhile but the process is also fun.
Not just the results.

About selling and getting something else, I can sell the E92 and get a GT3 RS and go faster. But I love my car exactly the way it is and have no intention selling anything or getting anything else. Let's respect that.

We now have hypothesis and soon we will have results.

I plan to run this setup Sep 7th, 14,15,16.

After 4 days we should get some numbers and continue the discussion.
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      08-24-2018, 01:02 PM   #185
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I am relatively new to tracking 10 track days, not fast just learning lines. 1:46.3 at Laguna on stock suspension. But I just think you are changing to many things at once. Stick with the same setup and only change one variable per session or per track day. Just my two cents. Good luck

Last edited by MPower7; 08-27-2018 at 11:39 AM.
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      08-27-2018, 03:12 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower7 View Post
I am relatively new to tracking 10 track days, not fast just learning lines. 1:46.3 at Laguna on stock suspension. But I just think you are changing to many things at once. Stick with the same setup and only change on variable per session or per track day. Just my two sense. Good luck
2 out of 5 senses?

This is the right approach. I run my E92 with only pad upgrade for increased braking force + 10.5j square wheels because I hate how the car understeers with stock 245 265 setup. (and bucket seats + 4P seatbelts)

Stock adaptive suspension still rolls a lot at Suzuka for any serious time attack lap, but it gives me a clearer idea of when the car is about to snap compared to, say, Bilstein clubsport suspension.

I would first try to get the most out of stock suspension (at Suzuka, it seems to be around 2:28 with A052. Still bloody fast and scary) You will then be able to differentiate how properly setup coilovers behave at corners that you found difficult with stock suspension.

Just my two yens.
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      08-27-2018, 02:13 PM   #187
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[Update]
Proxes RR came Friday and I was impatient to give it a try. The rear ADO8R already had 5 trackdays and the front PS4S were not holding up to the abuse. The passenger side tread was peeling off. the driver side looked ok. But with RR slicks in the tire place....

So on went 295/30/19 in the rear and 235/35/19 on the front.

Saturday was perfect weather at NYST and I immediately was in 1:38s even first warm up session.

I was careful to start the first lap at ease to put some heat into them.

Coming of the first session was at 42psi rear and 45 hot in the front. I took the air out to about 38. We already discussed that it is not true hot.

Spec calls for 32-38 hot. I want to stay on the upper limit for heavy car like the E92.

For the rest of the sessions i was at high 1:37.x and low 1:38.x. Any session I had open lap I was into these lap times. It was a congested day and it was hard to get two or three open laps.

The 3pm session I hit 1:37.5 with DSC off and this is my best time this year. Last year in October I hit 1:37.2 on a colder day.

Suspension. The JRZ settings I have few post back are now my daily settings. On the track I click the shafts +1 on the front and +2 on the rear.

There was a big different with the RR on the fast slalom 8,9,10. (left, right Left - each one tighter then the previous one)

@8 The rear ADO8R will slide out a bit and the front 275/30/19 would straggle to come into 9, so 10 can be tight, The RR 295/30/19 would not budge and the front had no problem coming right into 9 and left into 10.

The 235/30/19 would not be dramatically better than the ADO8R at the slow turns, but they were definitely better. However, the 235 on 9.5 is so ugly, just for esthetic reason I may have to bag this idea after I use up the second set.

The rear were fantastic.

I found 265/30/19 R888R cheaper than before @ $240. So next I will give these a try.

Overall, I am happy to get into the 1:37 range and am .5 second from my 1:36 this year objective.

Final thoughts about the RR slicks. Very nice but of course less versatile. If it rains, I will have to sit the session or the day. For now I have only one set of track wheels.

The front 235 RR wore out evenly but the passenger side did cord by lunch time on the second day. My brake pads were gone anyway
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      08-27-2018, 05:47 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
[Update]
Proxes RR came Friday and I was impatient to give it a try. ...
The front 235 RR wore out evenly but the passenger side did cord by lunch time on the second day. My brake pads were gone anyway
Your wear and roll pattern will confirm, but on a rear 295, 38 is much more than I would suggest and will significantly limit your rear traction.

I run 30-31 front, 28 rear as a start on every tire I use on the M3 and the handling, wear, and markings are all coming out perfect.

On my first session I'll start with 27 all the way around and by the time the brakes are OK, pressure is getting too high.
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      08-27-2018, 05:50 PM   #189
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Stats on brakes

31 trackdays on rotors and rear pads and 2 x front pads. Heavy braking on 18 turns NYST

Out of curiosity, for those of you with BBK, how long the pads and rotors last you?

I know it is track dependent. For example I noticed that at Lime Rock I used the brakes much less the NYST.
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      08-27-2018, 06:41 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
[Update]
Proxes RR came Friday and I was impatient to give it a try. ...
The front 235 RR wore out evenly but the passenger side did cord by lunch time on the second day. My brake pads were gone anyway
Your wear and roll pattern will confirm, but on a rear 295, 38 is much more than I would suggest and will significantly limit your rear traction.

I run 30-31 front, 28 rear as a start on every tire I use on the M3 and the handling, wear, and markings are all coming out perfect.

On my first session I'll start with 27 all the way around and by the time the brakes are OK, pressure is getting too high.
.
.
Interesting.
"Cold" after lunch hour the fronts were indeed 27.5. The rear had plenty of traction and I was happy with them. But I can try next time to go lower just to see.

In forgot to mention, the passenger front corded on the INSIDE. Typically any 265 and 275 corded the OUTSIDE front passenger and to a less degree the driver inside. The passenger had all the dimple gone and the two groves gone.
The driver front was worn much less in general (probably one track day left on it). dimple still showing, grooves still showing. This was after seven sessions on Saturday and 3 sessions on Sunday. Sunday lunch time I swapped the fronts, but discovered the frond brake pads were gone and that was it.
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      09-08-2018, 10:04 AM   #191
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[Update]
Good track day yesterday with the AZP group
Rear Proxes RR 295/30/19 were still good
Front: Trying the Proxes R888R 265/30/19 for the first time.
I also tried as suggested to lower the PSI hot to 35.

observations
1. The R888R felt the same as as the Yoko ADO8R with similar lap times.

2. While the R888R are rated as 100 tire, and the ADO8R are 180/200 tire, they performed about the same. After one track day the wear is the same.

3. The 35 PSI hot is not producing more grip than 38 hot, and the wear on the side wall is worse. In addition, with 35 hot, the middle of the tire was cooler than the outsides. Comments on this fact are welcomed.

4. Brakes. front are OEMs. I trying to avoid using the brakes. it is unpleasant.

5. Lap times. Best I was able to do after going back to 38 psi hot was 1:38.1 with multiple 1:38 and 1:39 laps. similar to ADO8R. Since i was able to get the R888R for $240 i was fine with that.

6. For now, the Proxes RR 235/35/19, as ugly as it is on 9.5 rim is the fastest setup. with the RR i was immediately into the the low 1:38 with many laps in 1:37.

7. Up above there is a JRZ settings that are now my road driving settings. When I get to the track i set the front on +1 shaft and +2 rear shaft. After lunch i increase shaft +1 on all corners. so front +2 and rear +3 from base. The car felt better and the fastest time, 1:38.1 was at the 4pm session. so this would be my next starting point.


comments are welcomed...
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      09-08-2018, 04:36 PM   #192
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What happened to your brakes that you went back to oem?
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      09-08-2018, 06:19 PM   #193
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Quote:
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What happened to your brakes that you went back to oem?
Driver Inner pad wore quicker than the outside and broke. will need to asses later.

Note to self, check pads thickness on both sides of the rotors.

I guess i was doing 1:37.5 with not much pads left.
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      09-08-2018, 08:53 PM   #194
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ouch, i hope the rotor wasn't scored by the pad backing plate. i have never dealt with carbon brakes, but from what i understand they are delicate and something like that would need replacement.

and yes, the inside pads tend to get a little hotter. at a particular track over here, there is a hard, downhill braking zone into a left turnpin. if i go with a fresh set of pads, the inside passenger side pad is by far the most worn, as it gets punished, and then turned away from the airflow and stays hotter longer.
i recently replaced my spent rotor rings. there were about three cracks on the outside of the ring, but about seven on the inside passenger side. i'd say its a valid theory.
if you were to run a square setup, you would be managing each tire placement by corner and wear based on the track you're running. pads can also be managed in this way. they may not wear with a taper, but they might wear at an individual rate. keep an eye on them.
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      09-30-2018, 01:05 PM   #195
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[Update]
October is coming and I have 5 track days left.
The front Carbon Brakes issue is being resolved but for now it is oem disks with some track oriented pads. Autocouture is sending something this week and I will be installing these brake pads on Friday 5th.

While I do lots of work on my 1996 LX450, I will will be doing brake pads on the E92 M3 myself for the first time. Expect crying for help on Friday Oct 5th.

Oct 6th will be on front Proxes RR second track day and rear Proxes RR second track day.

Now October is an important data point.
First, my best time of 1:37.2 was done last year in Oct, Second, Oct is at least 20-30 degrees cooler than Sep and summer track days.

If I remember correctly, I can literarily feell more power in 50 degrees than in 80 degrees ambient. will see

A minor change is my rear sway bar.
The Hotchkis fronts are on second position from soft yielding 74% stiffer from stock

I moved the rear from full soft (53%) to mid hole position (73% stiffer from stock).

Driving this new setup with my road clicks setup produce some extra traction control lightning (non mdm). That was somewhat expected. Stiffening the rear SB will produce somewhat less traction on North East public road.

I then applied logic and clicked +1 rear shaft dumping. Which helped!

By making the rear dumping a click stiffer, less twisting was requires and less sway bar "help" was needed.

So this setup is fine. Will know soon enough if this is faster.

Factoid:
Some "fast" guys at NYST are not using external GPS unit. and when tracking times at the range of 1:36, 1:37 and 1:38 - great times can be had without external GPS.

How do I know? because I like data.

I gave a E46 M3 guy, I became friendly with, my spare external GPS the last track day. External GPS take a sample every 2.5 meter. I think an iPhone gps take a sample every 10 meters or even more.

So once we hooked his iPhone using the same TrackAddict pro software I am using, his lap time went from 1:49 to 1:51 :-(

So I am a bit suspicious when my track buddies are quoting lap times of 1:36 without external GPS and I am faster. Truthfully, it does not matter. Everyone is having fun and we are all very friendly bunch. I am already half depressed to know that the 2018 season is coming to conclusion and I won't be seeing them over the winter.

Here are some LX450 (Toyota Land cruiser with better leather) pics on Moab, UT trip and today M3 pic out side a local brewery.
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      09-30-2018, 08:47 PM   #196
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nice truck!
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      10-01-2018, 08:14 AM   #197
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Quote:
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Tracking with one hand tied behind your back could be called an experiment too, but not a good one.

Try 275/35/18 nitto nt01's.
The moment when a driver only uses one hand yet drives better than other guys...
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      10-09-2018, 06:48 PM   #198
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Wow, I just read through this thread. This should be required reading for HPDE instructors and put in a classroom for students. Simply a great thread all around and no disrespect to the original post, but this thread is textbook on a novice driver chasing lap times, via car mods. Pheew, it got better and better, people getting pissed off, suggestions asked for and good feedback given and promptly ignored. On several posts an instructor was recommended and the response that stuck out was not needed, I have 15 years on my Ducati. Suspension is a 4 way remote MCS on a street car? At no point did I read it was even corner balanced, let alone set up by a professional set up person.

The Goal was trying to flow more speed through corners and what I saw on video (Mind you no hands or head visuals) is that you would best be served with a coach that you pay for to teach you and master the basics. Stop wasting money on car mods and put it into driving. I would put the stock suspension back in as well.

There are two types of drivers, analytical and intuitive. You, my friend, have taken analytical to a whole different level.

Sorry if this is coming across as harsh, that is not my intent, I work with a lot of clients and this is one of the best challenges I have seen in a while.

You may want to think about renting a Miata and spending a weekend at a racetrack with a coach. Then with a baseline suspension setup go back to the track with your car and coach and practice some more. Then you can make adjustments to 'tweak' the suspension to the track and needs. I would also pull out all timing devices as you are so focused on times and data you do not allow for focus on driving.
Expecting laps times to fall by doing what your currently doing is a fools errand.

Just my 2 cents, hope this helps, if you want to speak further send me a PM and I would be glad to help.

best regards,

Michael

Last edited by m13s; 10-09-2018 at 07:15 PM.
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