2012 BMW M3 vs. 2012 C63 AMG Coupe

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by Nine

let me just work backwards here with your post?
Daddy did the heavy lifting, what does that even mean? This screams insecurity on your part, don't spend too much time being concerned with my financial situation or anyones for that matter, focus on the point. (sidenote try to avoid jealousy) - my dad wouldn't buy me a BMW, he hates them.

Moving on, the incessant desire to compare the M3 to a knife, are you saying that I have little knowledge, Wait a minute....you just cliche'd the balls out of your post, and you are saying I have little knowledge? Are you telling me more about a car that has been around since 2008, with little to no performance impacting changes? Gee thanks for regurgitated information...

Ex. 2 of how naive you are:
This notion that AMG owners don't track their cars, are you kidding me? PLENTY of AMG owners track their cars, it's not a minority or a small group...probably one of the most naive comments I've ever read, you must not spend any time at the track. MB puts on many AMG events, plenty of members do private rentals, events and so on...you again show yourself naive.

Let's stick to the facts here;
Returning to the point of the thread, the article. Prices as tested 66k for the M3, 80k for the c63coupe. My problem is that MB could have done much better, another fact I offer at the people directing their comments at me, instead of MB/AMG:

2012 c63 coupe: 3996
2011 c63 Sedan: 3932

further looking at the details, for 80k, you are not getting much more than what was already available in a c63amg sedan (including p31 pack), you are getting non-performance upgrades in the c63coupe. Going back to my point, certainly a little more effort could have made the c63amg coupe a true M3 killer. They introduced a coupe, they knew it was going head to head with an m3, to me 4000lb pounds, glass roof, no lightweight options, not a great attempt, especially considering it is a coupe.

As a MB guy, I can't help but be a underwhelmed by this interation of the c63, it's more visual than performance product. Hopefully after the M156 is retired and the chassis is revised, MB will look at seriously de-throning the M3.


btw, that better not be a WRX screen name, noob.

I knew the knife comparison was a bit cliched but I couldn't think of any simpler examples so that your ninny mind would understand. But obviously I under estimated the level of your ignorance. Again, they are different cars. MB is putting their own spin to it. Their goal is not to "kill" a M3 but rather offer an alternative choice for ppl who want luxury with some mayhem...ahhh, never mind. Its like speaking Russian to a chimp raised in South America (Now there's another shameless cliche analogy thrown )

BTW, I did have a WRX almost 10years ago. Still keep it as a screen name as a reminder it was my 1st performance car. Since then I have owned several other cars of different makes. Thank you.

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Since you have avoided the question multiple times, I am assuming you havent actually driven a c63 amg

Why would he? He's already convinced by numerous magazines praising how awesome the M3 is, therefore everything else is crap. By his definition AMG should have "kill" the M3 by now.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Since you have avoided the question multiple times, I am assuming you havent actually driven a c63 amg.

Its a great car, just like an m3 is. FYI, your condescending attitude is uncalled for and annoying.

I have many times, actually in my circle of friends there are about 4-5 of them. MB in my circle is the most common brand, since I was young there was at least one relative in an AMG beating me in any one of my cars.

My attitude was towards my buddy WRXXX, what is curious is that when I bring up technical data, the response I get back with is not fact driven.

Again, my qualm is with this generation of the coupe, not the sedan. Great looking car, as stated earler, performance upgrades are lacking.

Originally Posted by WRXXX

I knew the knife comparison was a bit cliched but I couldn't think of any simpler examples so that your ninny mind would understand. But obviously I under estimated the level of your ignorance. Again, they are different cars. MB is putting their own spin to it. Their goal is not to "kill" a M3 but rather offer an alternative choice for ppl who want luxury with some mayhem...ahhh, never mind. Its like speaking Russian to a chimp raised in South America (Now there's another shameless cliche analogy thrown )

BTW, I did have a WRX almost 10years ago. Still keep it as a screen name as a reminder it was my 1st performance car. Since then I have owned several other cars of different makes. Thank you.

You know what they say about people with WRX screen names...ummm yeaaaah....

Do you not think it is a bit curious that the 2011 sedan is lighter than the 2012 coupe? Do you not think that a small investment into the supsension setup on MB's part would not yield huge rewards on the track or backroads(as tested)?

Originally Posted by WRXXX

Why would he? He's already convinced by numerous magazines praising how awesome the M3 is, therefore everything else is crap. By his definition AMG should have "kill" the M3 by now.

No. Just no. The 2011 c63amg sedan with p31 package is a beast, my qualm is again as stated earlier, is that this coupe should have had more/better performance development to go with all visual/appearance changes. The c63coupe when compared to a 2011 sedan is not getting you much and in 4-5 years, this 'new' model is not breaking into any NEW performance ground, especially given the price increase/point.

[BMoney]

Originally Posted by Nine

No. Just no. The 2011 c63amg sedan with p31 package is a beast, my qualm is again as stated earlier, is that this coupe should have had more/better performance development to go with all visual/appearance changes. The c63coupe when compared to a 2011 sedan is not getting you much and in 4-5 years, this 'new' model is not breaking into any NEW performance ground, especially given the price increase/point.

They changed the tranny, suspension, updated the interior on a car that'll be redesigned in 2 years. Seems pretty significant to me. The coupe is .2 quicker to 60 and in the 1/4 mile plus its trapping 3 mph faster as well. I'd say they did a pretty good job considering it's an old chassis!

[Nine]

Originally Posted by BMoney

They changed the tranny, suspension, updated the interior on a car that'll be redesigned in 2 years. Seems pretty significant to me. The coupe is .2 quicker to 60 and in the 1/4 mile plus its trapping 3 mph faster as well. I'd say they did a pretty good job considering it's an old chassis!

Really, I thought that the P31 packed sedan was doing about the same times. But I guess in those terms yes, then I would agree it is a great job on an old chassis. I am excited for the e63amg or the AMG'd E coupe. Nice white c63amg in your profile, did you ever make it out to the MIR track rental days? I was always surprised at how fast the AMG cars were at the track by novice drivers.

[BMoney]

Originally Posted by Nine

Really, I thought that the P31 packed sedan was doing about the same times. But I guess in those terms yes, then I would agree it is a great job on an old chassis. I am excited for the e63amg or the AMG'd E coupe. Nice white c63amg in your profile, did you ever make it out to the MIR track rental days? I was always surprised at how fast the AMG cars were at the track by novice drivers.

Thanks! I've never been out to MIR or even tracked any of my cars. The closest I've been was when I picked up my 335 at the BMW performance center in SC. That was a damn good time so I'm not sure what I'm waiting for!

[Nine]

Originally Posted by BMoney

Thanks! I've never been out to MIR or even tracked any of my cars. The closest I've been was when I picked up my 335 at the BMW performance center in SC. That was a damn good time so I'm not sure what I'm waiting for!

There are some FAST MBs in our area, the track days are a lot of fun, lots of options from FATT at Summit Point to MIR private rentals. The MB community is a really great one to be a part of, lots of very smart, very cool guys.

However, I do wish we were a bit closer to VIR, the drive home is HELL.

btw, any mods yet?

[BMoney]

Originally Posted by Nine

There are some FAST MBs in our area, the track days are a lot of fun, lots of options from FATT at Summit Point to MIR private rentals. The MB community is a really great one to be a part of, lots of very smart, very cool guys.

However, I do wish we were a bit closer to VIR, the drive home is HELL.

btw, any mods yet?

Only thing I've done is swap out the stock 18's with the 19" black AMG 16 spoke wheels. Other than that I'm thinking about doing carbon fiber mirrors, rear spoiler and possibly a eurocharged tune. I usually keep my rides pretty stock because I get bored easy and trade them in too fast. I'm already itching for a 2012 sedan.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

First Nine Bashes the C63 on how stupid the C63 is and how sucky the handling is and how the tires suck, and now he totally contradicts himself and says they are fast around a track? Did I miss something? Have the heavens opened and finally opened his mind that the M3 isn't the be all end all of cars? Could it be that he's not listening to the retarded comparison tests that take points off for design when they're testing performance? Have we finally turned a corner? Please say it's so! This deserves a celebration.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Since you have avoided the question multiple times, I am assuming you havent actually driven a c63 amg.

Its a great car, just like an m3 is. I personally like the fact that AMG and Merc put their own spin on their high performance line, just like BMW does with the M3. It would suck if the cars were identical.

Also, the m3 has made zero performance impacting changes since its introduction either so not sure why you are faulting the AMG here? The Merc actually has made some performance impacting changes, despite your inability to appreciate a car that can accelerate better.

Its always important to remember that 10 different people can drive a car and find different things that they like or dislike in it. Thats why all cars arent the same. The merc has a lot to offer, more power to AMG for building it.

BMW can learn something from Merc in terms of how to build a more flexible engine and Merc can learn from BMW on handling.

FYI, your condescending attitude is uncalled for and annoying.

Exactly why I had him on ignore for awhile.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by BMoney

They changed the tranny, suspension, updated the interior on a car that'll be redesigned in 2 years. Seems pretty significant to me. The coupe is .2 quicker to 60 and in the 1/4 mile plus its trapping 3 mph faster as well. I'd say they did a pretty good job considering it's an old chassis!

No biggie, but at a guess, the new coupe is no faster than a new C63 sedan, and may in fact be just a tad slower because of avoirdupois. It's the "new" tranny that's the difference - particularly in terms of trap speed. It doesn't slip at speed, therefore more power makes it to the drive wheels because less power is converted to heat before it makes it to where it'll do the most good.

Bruce

[BMoney]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

No biggie, but at a guess, the new coupe is no faster than a new C63 sedan, and may in fact be just a tad slower because of avoirdupois. It's the "new" tranny that's the difference - particularly in terms of trap speed. It doesn't slip at speed, therefore more power makes it to the drive wheels because less power is converted to heat before it makes it to where it'll do the most good.

Bruce

I was comparing the coupe to the 08-11 C63 #'s not the 2012 sedan. I would agree that they will most likely be very similar in times. The point was that MB did a lot for just a "refresh".

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by BMoney

...The point was that MB did a lot for just a "refresh".

Agreed.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

No biggie, but at a guess, the new coupe is no faster than a new C63 sedan, and may in fact be just a tad slower because of avoirdupois. It's the "new" tranny that's the difference - particularly in terms of trap speed. It doesn't slip at speed, therefore more power makes it to the drive wheels because less power is converted to heat before it makes it to where it'll do the most good.

Bruce

Actually Bruce the coupe is faster. 0- 60 in 3.7

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Actually Bruce the coupe is faster. 0- 60 in 3.7

Haven't personally seen a test of the sedan with the new box. Is it definitely slower?

Hard to believe, just based on stats. Can you point me to a test?

Thanks,

Bruce

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Haven't personally seen a test of the sedan with the new box. Is it definitely slower?

Hard to believe, just based on stats. Can you point me to a test?

Thanks,

Bruce

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

That's the Coupe.


http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...s-c-class-news

Sedan.

[BMoney]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

That's the Coupe.


http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...s-c-class-news

Sedan.

That's not a road test for the 2012 sedan. Although it does mention that there might be a slight drop from the previous 0 to 60 time of 3.9. I don't see how it could be much different from the coupe time unless it weighs significantly less.

[Ateam]

Hopefully this knocks some reality into Hot|Ice. Here is from the CD article on the front page from a week ago or so, testing the m3 coupe v. c63 coupe.

"While it’s not a big car, the C63 is actually a secret fatty. Curb weight came in at 3996 pounds, 444 pounds heavier than the M3. You’d never know it judging by its quarter-mile acceleration—12.1 seconds at 120 mph—where the C63 picked up three points on the M3 in our scoring. Our best time—0 to 60 in 3.7 seconds—came without making use of the “race start” launch-control setting. Use launch control, and you get a very repeatable 0-to-60 time of 3.9 seconds, but we were able to beat that with a gentle foot and less wheelspin. In the launch-free 5-to-60-mph test, the C63 matched the M3’s all-out 0-to-60 time of 4.3 seconds. While driving the M3, we sometimes found ourselves daydreaming about the Benz’s V-8. Torque is a hell of a drug."

Not sure what this guy needs to see to believe that although he listed a lighter car as a must, he chose a 444 pound heavier car because bmw did not make the m3 light enough