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      08-29-2018, 02:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Thx. What is the spec of your mid pipe? If you drive aggressive with the valves closed is it as quiet as stock?
Of course. I don't have a valvetronic exhaust right now but I know for a fact that when the valves are closed even with a catless X-pipe setup its practically just as quiet as stock. My friend had this setup when he had a E92 M3 with the Kreissieg exhaust.
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      08-29-2018, 02:32 PM   #24
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Based on my wonderful experience with HFCs in the primary position, I would not run primary cats at all in a track car. Definitely wouldn't use a test pipe with welded-in HFCs either
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      08-29-2018, 09:38 PM   #25
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What about valved exhaust with test pipes?
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      08-30-2018, 12:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
I know I keep saying this, but we'll have to meet up for you to drive my car.
I have the AFE 300 cell cat, resonated mid pipe. Right now I'm running the oem rear section because I'm daily driving the car. It passes sound at laguna and is very quiet with normal driving conditions. It does rasp a tiny bit between 3,500 and 4,000 rpms, but that's only at about 50% throttle.
So the rasp goes away after about 4,000 rpm? I figured once you're into rasp it stays and grows with more throttle.

What are your thoughts about how it might work with an MPE (OP did mention it as a possibility as well).
Hard to say. I don't think I've even heard the MPE in person. But yea, rasp isn't there in daily driving only briefly when into the throttle. Definitely not there in the higher rpms.
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      08-30-2018, 02:10 AM   #27
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Can you clarify what the risk is running stock cats at tracks? Done about 16 track days in my car so far, stock cats, stock mid pipes, aftermarket muffler. No problems so far. Switching to MPE soon due to Laguna Seca sound issues. Been failing sound lately.
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      08-30-2018, 03:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Can you clarify what the risk is running stock cats at tracks? Done about 16 track days in my car so far, stock cats, stock mid pipes, aftermarket muffler. No problems so far. Switching to MPE soon due to Laguna Seca sound issues. Been failing sound lately.
The cat can collapse and not let exhaust out. See his thread on engine malfunction.
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      08-30-2018, 08:10 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Can you clarify what the risk is running stock cats at tracks? Done about 16 track days in my car so far, stock cats, stock mid pipes, aftermarket muffler. No problems so far. Switching to MPE soon due to Laguna Seca sound issues. Been failing sound lately.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Can you clarify what the risk is running stock cats at tracks? Done about 16 track days in my car so far, stock cats, stock mid pipes, aftermarket muffler. No problems so far. Switching to MPE soon due to Laguna Seca sound issues. Been failing sound lately.
The cat can collapse and not let exhaust out. See his thread on engine malfunction.
What Phil said above is correct the cat collapsed on member SYT_Shadow's M3 and caused engine damage.

Even before Shadow posted this news my shop MRF warned me about this exact thing and the first and only time I tracked this car I got a catalytic error code - which may be simply coincidental - but the warning signs are there and as the saying goes, "those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it"
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      08-30-2018, 09:19 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Based on my wonderful experience with HFCs in the primary position, I would not run primary cats at all in a track car. Definitely wouldn't use a test pipe with welded-in HFCs either
Just FYI, a purposed track car like yours is used differently from stock cars that do the occasional beginner HPDE events like hooked on driving at a frequency of 3-5 times a year.

Different in that you run it hard as hell, whereas HPDE events are often 20 minute or some runs.

You see where I am trying to go here?
Makes sense?

I'm thinking worrying about cats wouldn't really apply to drivers like me. I did 5 events in the past 8 years lol!
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      08-30-2018, 09:26 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Just FYI, a purposed track car like yours is used differently from stock cars that do the occasional beginner HPDE events like hooked on driving at a frequency of 3-5 times a year.

Different in that you run it hard as hell, whereas HPDE events are often 20 minute or some runs.

You see where I am trying to go here?
Makes sense?

I'm thinking worrying about cats wouldn't really apply to drivers like me. I did 5 events in the past 8 years lol!
I agree, that is a good point. It's likely almost everyone would be perfectly fine with cats but at this point, after losing an engine, I'll err on the side of caution
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      08-30-2018, 09:41 AM   #32
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These seems like an Evolve or similar catted-x pipe situation, with cats still in the secondary position and resonators

I have the AFE, and I like it, mainly because still have no CEL after what like 4,000 miles on it, but my personal opinion is it would still be pretty loud with the stock back box, and fit like crap, because I had to adjust the slip joints at the MPE muffler to get it to line up right. But that's just like, my opinion man. I wouldn't recommend this xPipe UNLESS you want to keep O2 monitoring readiness unaffected, in which case, you at least have a decent chance as I did.
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      08-30-2018, 12:56 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Based on my wonderful experience with HFCs in the primary position, I would not run primary cats at all in a track car. Definitely wouldn't use a test pipe with welded-in HFCs either
Just FYI, a purposed track car like yours is used differently from stock cars that do the occasional beginner HPDE events like hooked on driving at a frequency of 3-5 times a year.

Different in that you run it hard as hell, whereas HPDE events are often 20 minute or some runs.

You see where I am trying to go here?
Makes sense?

I'm thinking worrying about cats wouldn't really apply to drivers like me. I did 5 events in the past 8 years lol!
Yeah I didn't mean to cause concern for most that occasionally track and in fact that's all this car will do on stock suspension so how hard can it be pushed anyway? Well that's my dilemma because while it won't see Shadow's use, my use will be less track days but in brutal conditions. I track it at what may be the hottest place on planet earth. Thermal is usually 10 deg or more hotter than Palm Springs. 120F is not abnormal.

With a large BBK and RE71Rs I can stay out on track for over 30 min in 100+ heat and that's the part that worries me about the stock cat collapsing. I'm not cruising around either....last time at Thermal we were flying with it faster than ZL1, Cayman R, a highly modded e92 M3 (trailered) and only a few seconds off a 991 GT3 and 458.
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      08-30-2018, 02:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Based on my wonderful experience with HFCs in the primary position, I would not run primary cats at all in a track car. Definitely wouldn't use a test pipe with welded-in HFCs either
Just FYI, a purposed track car like yours is used differently from stock cars that do the occasional beginner HPDE events like hooked on driving at a frequency of 3-5 times a year.

Different in that you run it hard as hell, whereas HPDE events are often 20 minute or some runs.

You see where I am trying to go here?
Makes sense?

I'm thinking worrying about cats wouldn't really apply to drivers like me. I did 5 events in the past 8 years lol!
Yeah I didn't mean to cause concern for most that occasionally track and in fact that's all this car will do on stock suspension so how hard can it be pushed anyway? Well that's my dilemma because while it won't see Shadow's use, my use will be less track days but in brutal conditions. I track it at what may be the hottest place on planet earth. Thermal is usually 10 deg or more hotter than Palm Springs. 120F is not abnormal.

With a large BBK and RE71Rs I can stay out on track for over 30 min in 100+ heat and that's the part that worries me about the stock cat collapsing. I'm not cruising around either....last time at Thermal we were flying with it faster than ZL1, Cayman R, a highly modded e92 M3 (trailered) and only a few seconds off a 991 GT3 and 458.
That is running hard with the big boys. That helps put the concern in perspective.

Is it not feasible to have a cat bypass that can be opened and closed to reroute airflow through cat or around it? I guess such an ideal an obvious solution would destroy sales.
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      08-30-2018, 02:23 PM   #35
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There's no space for anything like that under the car.
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      08-30-2018, 06:09 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Based on my wonderful experience with HFCs in the primary position, I would not run primary cats at all in a track car. Definitely wouldn't use a test pipe with welded-in HFCs either
Just FYI, a purposed track car like yours is used differently from stock cars that do the occasional beginner HPDE events like hooked on driving at a frequency of 3-5 times a year.

Different in that you run it hard as hell, whereas HPDE events are often 20 minute or some runs.

You see where I am trying to go here?
Makes sense?

I'm thinking worrying about cats wouldn't really apply to drivers like me. I did 5 events in the past 8 years lol!
Yeah I didn't mean to cause concern for most that occasionally track and in fact that's all this car will do on stock suspension so how hard can it be pushed anyway? Well that's my dilemma because while it won't see Shadow's use, my use will be less track days but in brutal conditions. I track it at what may be the hottest place on planet earth. Thermal is usually 10 deg or more hotter than Palm Springs. 120F is not abnormal.

With a large BBK and RE71Rs I can stay out on track for over 30 min in 100+ heat and that's the part that worries me about the stock cat collapsing. I'm not cruising around either....last time at Thermal we were flying with it faster than ZL1, Cayman R, a highly modded e92 M3 (trailered) and only a few seconds off a 991 GT3 and 458.
That is running hard with the big boys. That helps put the concern in perspective.

Is it not feasible to have a cat bypass that can be opened and closed to reroute airflow through cat or around it? I guess such an ideal an obvious solution would destroy sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
There's no space for anything like that under the car.
Bummer that's a great idea.
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      08-31-2018, 05:55 PM   #37
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Umm holy mama. I've done about 16-18 days at tracks in the past 12 months or so. Running high intermediate or advance group, depending on which organizer is running it. Usually 20-25 minute sessions.

Should I be worried? My pacing isn't super fast, but I think decent. (1:44.89 @ Laguna with RE71R and mostly stock car for example) And if I should be worried, what's a good solution without killing myself come CARB/smog time?
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      08-31-2018, 06:09 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFCM3 View Post
Just run test pipes, have a competant exhaust shop add a flange to the back of the pipe, and to the back of the primary cats after cutting them off. that way you can swap out the test pipes on track days. seems to be the only solution it you want oem sound levels outside the track...
Bingo. I'm not really sure how long it would take to do this swap, but if you have ramps at home I would think you'll get better at it over time. I doubt it's something you'll want to do at the track with jacks & jackstands.

The brick inside the cat is not typically what fails, it's the substrate around it that burns up. You see this often in modified cars without tunes -- they tend to run rich and dump unspent fuel into the headers, which detonates in the cats.
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      08-31-2018, 06:10 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Umm holy mama. I've done about 16-18 days at tracks in the past 12 months or so. Running high intermediate or advance group, depending on which organizer is running it. Usually 20-25 minute sessions.

Should I be worried? My pacing isn't super fast, but I think decent. (1:44.89 @ Laguna with RE71R and mostly stock car for example) And if I should be worried, what's a good solution without killing myself come CARB/smog time?
This is the dilemma because you are running hard enough for the cat to really heat up beyond perhaps normal operating conditions. Anything can happen...its like rod bearings - unlikely but if it happens wow it's costly.

If you don't mind the additional noise a catless x pipe will get rid of the risk but for smog you would have to swap back the stock x pipe and there are some additional prep to get the OBD into readiness which I understand is a bit of a pain in the ass.

My issue is bit more problematic because i want to remove the primary cats while keeping stock noise level.
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      08-31-2018, 06:20 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Umm holy mama. I've done about 16-18 days at tracks in the past 12 months or so. Running high intermediate or advance group, depending on which organizer is running it. Usually 20-25 minute sessions.

Should I be worried? My pacing isn't super fast, but I think decent. (1:44.89 @ Laguna with RE71R and mostly stock car for example) And if I should be worried, what's a good solution without killing myself come CARB/smog time?
probably fine.
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      08-31-2018, 08:11 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Umm holy mama. I've done about 16-18 days at tracks in the past 12 months or so. Running high intermediate or advance group, depending on which organizer is running it. Usually 20-25 minute sessions.

Should I be worried? My pacing isn't super fast, but I think decent. (1:44.89 @ Laguna with RE71R and mostly stock car for example) And if I should be worried, what's a good solution without killing myself come CARB/smog time?
This is the dilemma because you are running hard enough for the cat to really heat up beyond perhaps normal operating conditions. Anything can happen...its like rod bearings - unlikely but if it happens wow it's costly.

If you don't mind the additional noise a catless x pipe will get rid of the risk but for smog you would have to swap back the stock x pipe and there are some additional prep to get the OBD into readiness which I understand is a bit of a pain in the ass.

My issue is bit more problematic because i want to remove the primary cats while keeping stock noise level.
I'm reading this as "keep your extended warranty" lol. Thanks
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      09-20-2018, 07:55 PM   #42
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Sorry to add to the zillion exhaust threads but I have something not frequently asked.

I actually love the stock exhaust. I like that it's quiet so I can drive aggressively on the street without much fuss and making a bunch of noise. Doesn't wake the family or neighbors either. I leave my house really early many mornings.

My dilemma is that I will occasionally track the car in pretty brutal 100 deg F and up conditions and on sustained 30 minutes sessions, the primary cats can risk potential engine damage (lots of discussion in the Track subforum).

So. I would like an option that is as quiet as the stock system yet removes the primary cats.

Any thoughts?

I have had the Akra Evo and that thing is too loud. Most would say the Akra Evo system is actually on the quiet side of the sound spectrum but that's what I'm dealing with. How about pairing the Akra catted X pipe with the stock or M performance mufflers? Or a valved exhaust system?
Removing the primaries will increase the noise. If you are worried about melting them on the track, have your OEM primaries replaced with HJS race catalytic converters.
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      09-21-2018, 12:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Sorry to add to the zillion exhaust threads but I have something not frequently asked.

I actually love the stock exhaust. I like that it's quiet so I can drive aggressively on the street without much fuss and making a bunch of noise. Doesn't wake the family or neighbors either. I leave my house really early many mornings.

My dilemma is that I will occasionally track the car in pretty brutal 100 deg F and up conditions and on sustained 30 minutes sessions, the primary cats can risk potential engine damage (lots of discussion in the Track subforum).

So. I would like an option that is as quiet as the stock system yet removes the primary cats.

Any thoughts?

I have had the Akra Evo and that thing is too loud. Most would say the Akra Evo system is actually on the quiet side of the sound spectrum but that's what I'm dealing with. How about pairing the Akra catted X pipe with the stock or M performance mufflers? Or a valved exhaust system?
Removing the primaries will increase the noise. If you are worried about melting them on the track, have your OEM primaries replaced with HJS race catalytic converters.
If I remember correctly that's what SYT_Shadow had on his car when the cat collapsed/clogged to cause engine failure. It wasnt the stock primary cats.
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      09-21-2018, 12:14 PM   #44
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I've decided to run the Akra X-pipe, but match it with the Dinan rear section.

The Dinan seems reasonable and the Akra seems like it will take a lot of abuse.

What I hear from you though is that this setup would still be too loud for your 0.0% tolerance.

For me it sounds good enough, doesnt stop local cows from giving milk, and withstands track session that should light the car on fire.

For "reference" comparison, I had the Sharkwerks and BBi on my TTS and thought both were intolerably loud. Now on a Kline inconel setup with Kline inconel equal length headers. I don't like loud. I like good.
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