VANOS solenoid causing other codes

[romemmy]

Hi all,

I’m seeing the following VANOS related codes, all related to Bank 1:

271a - solenoid issue, inlet
275f - reached maximum adjustment, inlet
2760 - reached maximum adjustment, exhaust

Is it reasonable/typical that the 271a, indicating solenoid/control malfunction, could cause the 275f and 2760? I wasn’t sure if the 271a, the inlet solenoid, could affect the adjustment on the 2760, the exhaust cam.

Thanks!

S.

[doogee]

Has the motor ever been opened up or retimed?

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Is it reasonable/typical that the 271a, indicating solenoid/control malfunction, could cause the 275f and 2760? I wasn’t sure if the 271a, the inlet solenoid, could affect the adjustment on the 2760, the exhaust cam.

Thanks!

S.

The intake solenoid cannot mechanically affect the exhaust adjustment. It is possible that there is an electrical short or ground issue that could be causing issues with the exhaust solenoid.

[romemmy]

Yeah, didn’t think so... I just wanted to test my sanity.

doogee - yeah, completely rebuilt. I used the proper OEM timing equipment to time it, but looks like it’s gotten out of time mechanically then (or some other fault with the mechanical gear itself).. I’ll need to take the cover off and check/fix it.

Another sanity check moment... Bank 1 is on the left if you are standing in front of the car looking at the engine right? The side with the oil cap?

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

That's likely your problem. Timing is off. Follow the TIS procedure for Checking Timing after you follow the steps to Set Timing. You'll usually find that your first or even second attempt at setting the timing will need to be tweaked slightly to achieve the specified 1mm or less of clearance under the timing block.

Bank one is always the right bank in a BMW V8 (sitting in the cockpit).

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

That's likely your problem. Timing is off. Follow the TIS procedure for Checking Timing after you follow the steps to Set Timing. You'll usually find that your first or even second attempt at setting the timing will need to be tweaked slightly to achieve the specified 1mm or less of clearance under the timing block.

Bank one is always the right bank in a BMW V8 (sitting in the cockpit).

Thanks Dean. I checked the timing when I did it and it appeared to be perfect, and I'm pretty sure I didn't get the codes until I drove for a long while (500-1000 miles), and now when I clear them they come back within just a few miles every time.

Anyway, will find some time to check the timing and report back to close this issue!

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

Did you reuse the VANOS bolts or install new ones? They're TTY bolts, and may have slipped if reused.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Did you reuse the VANOS bolts or install new ones? They're TTY bolts, and may have slipped if reused.

I replaced them.. when I do it again I will use another set of new ones again..

[romemmy]

I finally got a cable that works and ran some tests using INPA and it definitely looks sick... Each cam fails on something:

Inlet #1

• Doesn't reach required max angle (137.9deg, min is 140deg)
• Adjustment time for opening seems to fail altogether?
• Ventilguete (valve?) seems to be maxed out

Exhaust #1

• Doesn't reach required max angle (122.6deg, min is 123deg)
• Minimum angle seems to fail altogether - doesn't register a value (did the test twice)
• Again, Ventilguete (valve?) seems to be maxed out

Inlet 2

• Doesn't reach required max angle (131.1deg, min is 140deg)
• Doesn't reach required min angle (73.2deg, min is 74deg)
• Again, Ventilguete (valve?) seems to be maxed out

Exhaust 2

• Finally, one that gets in to the green on max angle!
• Doesn't reach required min angle (80.7deg, min is 86deg)
• Again, Ventilguete (valve?) seems to be maxed out

The raw results are posted below... As soon as I get ahold of some replacement cam central bolts I will pull the top off and recheck the timing.

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

Yep that's a proper mess.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Yep that's a proper mess.

So I haven't yet opened up the engine (due to lack of time!).. Before I do though, could the issues be caused by vanos solenoids at all? All the solenoids were reused during the build, and I'd hate to take it all apart and find out the timing is fine, but the solenoids are messed up. I can't be 100% sure which engines the solenoids came from either (as I had basically 12 solenoids from 3 engines!)

Is there any way to test solenoids on the bench?

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

The electrical test of the solenoids already passed according to those screen shots. You can swap them out if you want but I don't think they're the problem. The speed at which the adjusters are reacting is normal, so I would think oil supply/pressure from the solenoids is good. You can check their screens or just swap them out. That's an easy task compared to the others.

Ventilguete = Valve quality. This is some internal go/no-go calculation of overall vanos operating quality based on all of the other results. I don't think anyone knows the math on it... Obviously since the cams aren't reaching target angles this test failed on each cam.

It looks like either the cams are not in time, or the adjusters on each cam are defective. If the adjusters were from an engine with failed bearings, the copper debris builds up on the internal rotors and walls which impedes full rotation and adjustments. I've seen that happen on engines "rebuilt" from failed bearings using the old adjusters. It takes time for the buildup to cause problems. I've also seen the internal check valves fail and block the rotors but that's not likely for all of the adjusters at once.

[romemmy]

Finally going to tackle this.. since I have the supercharger on there, stripping it down has been something I’ve not had time to do yet. Still getting the same codes, hasn’t gotten better or worse. At this point I guess the issues are possibly:

- vanos solenoids - which would have had to have all failed at the same time. Unlikely?
- hydraulic issue affecting all solenoids - maybe, I’ve heard of issues with the oil filter housing causing pressure issues to the vanos? Maybe?
- timing is off mechanically. That’s what I thought originally but that would mean all 4 cams are off at the same time, right? I’m skeptical of multiple simultaneous issues..
- adjusters have failed - again, would have to have failed on both sides of the engine at the same exact time.

Is there any way to check hydraulic pressure at the solenoid(s) easily? If so that would at least let me check that that a global pressure issue is unlikely.

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Is there any way to check hydraulic pressure at the solenoid(s) easily? If so that would at least let me check that that a global pressure issue is unlikely.

There is no way to check oil pressure at the solenoids. The oil galleries that supply the vanos system is directly off of the main gallery which are all relatively large bores and not prone to being clogged unless whoever rebuilt the engine used silicone sealant in the engine which has broken off and clogged things up.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

There is no way to check oil pressure at the solenoids. The oil galleries that supply the vanos system is directly off of the main gallery which are all relatively large bores and not prone to being clogged unless whoever rebuilt the engine used silicone sealant in the engine which has broken off and clogged things up.

Thanks dean. Considering that, is there absolutely anything else that can cause a common global issue that affects all 4 cams simultaneously? The issues we discussed earlier in the thread were really more individual issues, but if there is one global issue that can cause the issues I’m seeing, I’d want to take a look at that. I saw you say this to another guy last year:

It appears the VANOS isn't able to hold its positions. In the oil filter housing, is the cage present within the filter core? The cage should remain attached to the housing cap when removed.

There are X-Rings on each camshaft. There is also an O-ring on each VANOS adjuster where it slides over the cam. Were those inspected and/or replaced?

Unfortunately that guy didn’t post back his ultimate resolution if he ever got it resolved. He was having a very similar issue to me with codes on all 4 cams. He changed everything though (adjusters and solenoids), and checked timing, and it didn’t help!

Thanks!

Z.

[peter de la mare]

I’d also like to hear any resolution to this. Currently looking at replacing a Vanos hub on bank 1. I’ve already moved the solenoid to bank 2 but the fault remains on bank 1.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Thanks dean. Considering that, is there absolutely anything else that can cause a common global issue that affects all 4 cams simultaneously? The issues we discussed earlier in the thread were really more individual issues, but if there is one global issue that can cause the issues I’m seeing, I’d want to take a look at that. I saw you say this to another guy last year:



Unfortunately that guy didn’t post back his ultimate resolution if he ever got it resolved. He was having a very similar issue to me with codes on all 4 cams. He changed everything though (adjusters and solenoids), and checked timing, and it didn’t help!

Thanks!

Z.

I think it has already been pointed out in this thread. Most likely culprit is the timing is off- that's your most likely "global" cause if you've checked all of the other smaller items already brought up like the check valve in the oil cap, etc..

It's unfortunate that rarely does anyone come back to confirm their finds and list their solutions. They're eager to consume the forum's benefits but slow to contribute.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Looking at the test data and the information you've provided, I see 3 possible, if not combined issues.

1. Your timing is off. The S65 is tricky to be honest. I've done it twice now and don't enjoy a minute of it.
2. Your vanos adjusting units are defective, or being mechanically impeded.
3. The vanos seals are defective and bleeding off oil pressure.

I'm willing to bet you have a combination of these issues. It's not impossible to have clogged vanos adjusters.

My recommendation is to replace all 4 adjuster units, their seals, vanos bolts and re-time the engine.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

I think it has already been pointed out in this thread. Most likely culprit is the timing is off- that's your most likely "global" cause if you've checked all of the other smaller items already brought up like the check valve in the oil cap, etc..

It's unfortunate that rarely does anyone come back to confirm their finds and list their solutions. They're eager to consume the forum's benefits but slow to contribute.

I agree - when I do find the cause I will definitely post back the answer.

Thanks!

S.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by Solo_M_Tech

Looking at the test data and the information you've provided, I see 3 possible, if not combined issues.

1. Your timing is off. The S65 is tricky to be honest. I've done it twice now and don't enjoy a minute of it.
2. Your vanos adjusting units are defective, or being mechanically impeded.
3. The vanos seals are defective and bleeding off oil pressure.

I'm willing to bet you have a combination of these issues. It's not impossible to have clogged vanos adjusters.

My recommendation is to replace all 4 adjuster units, their seals, vanos bolts and re-time the engine.

I’ll definitely be checking the timing and seals. As for the adjusters themselves, they are insanely priced... they will definitely be a last resort.

Thanks!

S.

[romemmy]

Quick update - I pulled, cleaned and electrically tested each solenoid, as a first step - all INPA tests come back exactly the same. Next I will pull the rocker covers off and check timing.

Incidentally - I'm getting a 278D code too (shows up instantly when cleared) to do with the BSD communications system - I think this may be related to the alternator, though the alternator itself seems to be fine (>14V while running, and no battery charge issues).

Thanks!

S.

[romemmy]

So the plot thickens... I pulled off the rocker cover on one side, rotated the engine to TDC, slipped the timing tool on, and it dropped right in to place with zero gap. Which basically means the timing is perfect.

I didn't pull off the other side yet, but since I'm getting vanos test issues across all four cams, and the banks can't affect each other, then I'm assuming timing is fine.

Another thing to note is that the test results since I first posted almost a year ago are virtually identical today (within 0.2 degrees). If anything was failing I'd expect some inconsistency, but all the results are the same every time. Also I do not have any cold start issues, idle issues, etc, which are typically attributed to failing VANOS. From what I can tell, the tests are only having issues at the extreme - watching the "live" data in INPA, the VANOS is constantly adjusting within specifications, so it's "working", just not perfectly. Also weird is that INPA is not showing values for two of the parameters (min deg, exhaust 1, and adjustment time on intake 1) - if it wasn't able to get a min deg at all between 40deg and 160deg, I'd assume the engine would be having drivability issues - but everything drives fine.

So, that leaves me with the following options:

1) All 4 VANOS adjusters mysteriously went bad at the same time.
2) All 4 solenoids, despite appearing to work fine and being cleaned, have gone bad at the same time.
3) An upstream hydraulic issue happening on both heads at the same time, affecting all 4 solenoids.
4) Maybe the DME is having issues? I've heard of DME's causing the issue (one forum member here told me two of his friends were chasing VANOS issues and both of them turned out to be DME issues). The inability to get a couple of the values during the test may point to a DME issue? Also the BSD bus error could be DME related..
5) A ground/electrical issue. As far as I can tell all grounds are connected though. Not sure if there is an easy way to run a test for this though. This could be plausible considering the BSD bus error too.

My car has the ESS supercharger so of course the ESS tune applied to the DME... Maybe some corruption crept in and caused the issue during the flash process. I can try re-flashing the DME, though I'd prefer trying an entirely new DME - though then I'd have to convince ESS to give me a tune for that test DME since I have the large injectors which need scaling for idle.

In a way I wish the timing had been off - a simple "obvious" solution - but now it's puzzling considering the global nature of the issue.

Any other ideas guys? Is DME a likely candidate?

Thanks!

S.