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12-11-2009, 05:50 PM | #23 | |
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Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. The driving experience still needs to be as engrossing and fun. Coming from two FI engines before this, I don't think BMW will have a problem delivering on this. Things are changing, and turbo motors are not at all what they were just a few years ago. That being said, there is a damn good reason I went with the M3 and why I don't plan on selling it : ) |
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12-11-2009, 05:50 PM | #24 | |
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Congrats on the new M order
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12-11-2009, 06:30 PM | #26 |
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So what if it has turbo?!
The Ferrari F40 has twin turbo, and it is still celebrated as one of the most hardcore Ferrari ever built. The Mclaren MP4 has twin turbo, and that revs to 8,500 RPM... while having the highest HP-to-CO2 ratio in the world. The Nissan GTR has turbos, and NA GT3s are having a hard time catching it on the 'ring. Come on, with technological advances, turbo does not nessesarily mean losing the true character of sports cars. With proper development it could be just as good. Stop bashing BMW M just because it is putting turbos into their engines... this is a childish argument. |
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12-11-2009, 06:38 PM | #27 | |
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12-11-2009, 07:09 PM | #28 |
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True, but it is really the same thing he was getting at. Increased emissions and fuel economy regulations are what pushes the costs higher and higher until BMW can no longer build a naturally aspirated M3 that makes a business case. It is true that Porsche will continue to build naturally aspirated cars, but they also have a demographic who is willing to pay the higher sticker prices associated with them.
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12-11-2009, 07:16 PM | #29 |
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Indeed. And if only BMW could give us something like this for the M3 (and M5 for that matter), I would be the first one in line. As good as BMW's turbocharged efforts are, I think this McLaren motor will be one of the all time greats. It just makes me .
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12-11-2009, 07:25 PM | #30 |
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Welcome to the real world.
There are powerful arguments for going to direct-injected turbocharged engines, not the least of which - in this context - is better performance with lower weight. I'm looking forward to an F30 M3 that can challenge a GT-R, and get good fuel mileage.
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12-11-2009, 07:30 PM | #31 | ||
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I for one think they truly will make the best M3 ever as they say they would.
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12-11-2009, 07:48 PM | #32 | |
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12-11-2009, 09:25 PM | #33 |
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This is such a SILLY argument. Like someone else said, vote with your wallet.
Wait till the new M3 comes out. If you like it, get it. If not, hold on to your current M3. It's not like the government is going to show up on your doorstep and take your E90 / E92 / E93 away. The same thing happened with P cars. The hard core enthusiasts held onto their air-cooled "classic" 911's, while the early adapters went water-cooled and never looked back. In the end, both sides were happy. The only folks who lose if the M division goes FI are the trolls and poseurs who don't have an M3 to begin with. IMHO they should STFU anyway. How's that for a warm and fuzzy post?
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12-11-2009, 09:43 PM | #34 |
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Except they're no fun to ride. What you want is an engine that produces great power very low all the way to a reasonably high redline. Look no further than MV Agusta (thanks to the original Ferrari 4 cyl design pumping out nearly 200 hp per liter these days...and via a NA rotary valve inline 4 with individual throttle bodies). Ride this engine and you'll never look at another high-revving Japanese inline 4 with essentially zero power in the 1st third of the rev counter.
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12-11-2009, 10:03 PM | #35 |
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It is sad when the M cars just get a messaged regular BMW engine.
Let's not forget that the N54 will still over heat at the track, AND BMW cut it's knees off down low because of bad boost valves, so all that "No lag" you read about on early cars is not the case anymore.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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12-11-2009, 10:14 PM | #36 |
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It is definitely lamentable after being spoiled by the M-specific S65 and S85.
But remember that before these motors all prior M motors were massaged regular series motors (to varying degrees, admittedly). And while in the latest case it would be natural to think that the S63 is simply an N63 with the boost cranked up, this isn't actually the case. AFAIK, the S63 has a very unique turbo charging system that routes the pressurized air to each piston separately as it reaches TDC just before its power stroke. Or something like that, anyway. One could point out that the 4.4L BMW motor making 550hp isn't necessarily state of the art as far as specific output is concerned. But then, the object is to combine efficiency with higher performance. And if you look at the economy figures for the nearly 3 ton M suvs, they are reasonably efficient for what they are. The M5, at 2 tons or so, should do that much better. |
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12-11-2009, 10:15 PM | #37 |
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From what I heard, the reason the M went with the turbos is that it will save gas also... I don't see how is it a problem.
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12-11-2009, 10:15 PM | #38 | |
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Seriously, it's a very pragmatic post, and since I'm always beating the "it's a preference thing", and not "good and evil, right and wrong, black and white" drum I'm biased in liking it. On the other hand, I think Ruff does have a point about the ///M division. It was all about high-revving N/A motors--that was an essential part of what their design mission revolved around, a core value if you will. It formed a main part of the “soul” of the division. I mean seriously, what is the ///M philosophy now? That's my main issue at the moment. Not whether FI is good or bad, or if N/A is better. (I have a preference which most know by now). But I simply have no idea what ///M is. What makes up the heart and soul--or should we say "new" heart and soul--of the division? I can't answer that question. Can anyone? Can the ///M Division? Is it "Efficient Dynamics"? What the hell does that actually mean (aside from guys in white in white rooms with white cars screwing in white fluorescent bulbs in all white commercials)? I need more than a slogan—I need to know that the core values are. Okay, if they've sold their soul did get a new one in the bargain? Or is it more the case that they now simply have no soul? What is the ///M philosophy—what is the soul of what makes an ///M car now?
If there are some less than ///M ///M’s out there that allow us to have really pure ///Ms, that may be a price worth paying. (That’s assuming we can define what ///M is going forward of course). For now, I'm going enjoy my M3 and its joyous song, and see what the future brings when it gets here. Hopefully as time goes by, and we see what the new M3 actually is, ///M will actually define who they are and what they're about. |
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12-11-2009, 10:32 PM | #39 | |
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12-11-2009, 10:59 PM | #40 |
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The prior head of ///M said in an interview with Roundel about a year ago that:
An M car must be relatively light, so that rules out an SUV or 7 series. An ///M car will have a high reving normally aspirated engine for linear power delivery, and the high rev limiter will allow fewer gear changes on the track. An ///M car will be rear wheel drive. An ///M car will have a manual type tranny, ie no slush box. Obviously, there's a new head of ///M now.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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12-11-2009, 11:07 PM | #41 | |
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12-11-2009, 11:53 PM | #43 | |
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The GT-R of today will be history in the next few years and a new one will take its place with probably 600+ HP running probably under 7:20. The F30 M3 will not even do squat next to the current GT-R, let alone the next generation. In short, if you think slapping a turbo on a 4000 + lbs M3 is going to make it an improvement of almost 50 seconds around Nurburgring, you are living in a fantasy land.
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- Lamborghini on turbocharging Last edited by 330CIZHP; 12-12-2009 at 12:18 AM.. |
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12-12-2009, 12:21 AM | #44 | |
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Porsche claims they consistently run faster in 997.2 435 HP GT3 than Nissan GT-R with Walter Rohrl piloting both cars back to back. Question is, who do you believe?
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