Differential Swap Question (E39 M5 LSD)

Scharbag · 01-25-2021, 06:09 PM

I built a new diff with an E39 M5 LSD. I have gotten so much great information from this community I thought I would share my experience. bigjae1976 has given me some great info on another thread!!

The plan was to buy a used case, side covers, input flange and rear cover as well as new LSD clutches, seals, bearings, shims etc. to build a complete new diff. I will also need a ring and pinion but may use the opportunity to go to 4.10 gears given they suit where I live. I chickened out of this and just hammered the ZF carrier into my existing pumpkin with the stock 3.85 ring and pinion.

After some research, I found the following:

I did not touch the pinion but I bought the parts for future (Thanks to @Andrew for some great info in another post):

Pinion:

F.A.G. large pinion bearing - F-237542.02.SKL-H79
F.A.G. small pinion bearing - F-237541.02.SKL-H79
Pinion shim - do not even get me started on these... Unicorns are easier to find!!
Pinion seal - 33121213949
Pinion dustcover (if needed) - 33137600693
Pinion crush sleeve - 33121204657 <-- this makes sense as all old 210mm diffs seem to use this sleeve
Pinion nut securing plate - 33121205138
Pinion nut - cannot find the exact part number - anyone have this?

Carrier

Koyo carrier bearings (X2) - JLM104948
Koyo carrier race (X2) - JLM104910
Carrier seals (X2) - 33107510289
O-rings for the side covers - 33111214144
Side cover shims - got a package of these from RacingDiffs.com (21Nm tightening torque - cross wise)
E39 M5 output drive flanges (X2) - 33131214068
Drive flange dust covers (small - if needed) - 33122283079
Drive flange dust covers (large - if needed) - 33137840562
Output shaft bolts (X16 - if needed) - 33211227944
Pinion flange bolts (X6 - if needed) - 26117526322 <-- check for special balance bolt/washer based on pinion color marking
Ring gear bolts (X10) - 33132227347 (Grade 12.9, 14x1.5x25)
LSD cap bolts (X8) - ??? (Grade 10.9, could not find part number - will update if I find this part number)
LSD clutch rebuild kit - I used RacingDiffs.com Stage 1 rebuild kit (2 clutch pack with new pre-load washers)
Loctite 272 for ring gear bolts and cap bolts - I am truly committed!!!
Loctite 5970 (83190404517) to seal rear cover (60Nm bolt torque)

Installation of the clutch kits is relatively straight forward. The one things I learned was before compressing the clutch assembly with the cap, it is best to put both output flanges in the diff and rotate the clutches and spider gears. This seems to properly center everything in the carrier. After this, tighten the cap down and test to make sure nothing is binding. In my case, I measured ~120ftlb of breakaway torque. RacingDiffs told me to expect ~115Nm when new dropping to 100Nm once the clutches are bedded in. I will keep you all posted.

As for actual installation into my pumpkin, I had that done by a gearing specialist here in Victoria. He has zero issues and was able to set the pattern, lash and pre-load without any issues.

Diff got put back into the car. After a single drive, it snowed here. So, it will be a bit before I can properly test this pumpkin out!

Again, thanks to all those who have helped me in this little endeavor.

Cheers,

Scharbag · 01-26-2021, 10:56 PM

Soldiering forth with this adventure.

Got a bearing/seal set on the way. Also bought a new set of LSD clutches and 210mm carrier shims from RacingDiffs. Went with a 2 clutch stage 1 kit. Perhaps some day I will try out their variable ramp set and a 4 clutch setup. Baby steps.

Found a local shop that is willing to help with the bearing press and gear setup. Everyone locally has basically said that the ball bearing pinion setup is very difficult to setup. So, I am just going to swap diff carriers instead of building a spare diff. Some day, if I want to go with 4.10 gears, I will have to tackle the pinion. Perhaps some more information will be available to help set pre-loading. Or, in a perfect world, someone will figure out how to replace the nuisance ball bearings with roller bearings... Dare to dream.

Need to clean everything up and get it ready for the new stuff. Fingers crossed everything works out!!

Cheers,

Scharbag · 01-29-2021, 12:03 PM

Making progress. Parts on order. Decided to not touch the pinion and swap carriers. Going to replace the carrier bearings and races. Also decided to go with a stage 1 racingdiffs service pack. Keeping the 45/45 ramps and 2 clutch setup for now. In the future, I may decide to try out the variable ramp set and/or the 4 clutch setup.

Fun fact - it seems like Serbia, Latvia and Estonia are hotbeds for differential parts. Who would have thought...

And, sweet mother of pearl have cordless tools come a long way. 1,400ftlb of breaking torque from this magical wizard device. It broke the ring bolts loose even though they had red loctite on them. Crazy.

Anyway, all cleaned up and ready to go once parts arrive. Everything seems pretty straight forward so far.

Cheers,

ZiMMie · 01-30-2021, 04:10 AM

Which school did you steal that pencil sharper from?

Epoustouflant · 01-30-2021, 04:17 AM

Nice! That's a setup Florian does a lot in Europe using the M5's ZF LSD.

Scharbag · 01-30-2021, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiMMie

Which school did you steal that pencil sharper from?

Lol.

My parents bought me that back in grade school decades ago and I just kept it.

😝

Scharbag · 01-30-2021, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

Nice! That's a setup Florian does a lot in Europe using the M5's ZF LSD.

I have read that.

Now if I can find someone who knows how to properly set Pre-load on the pinion bearings. Fml.

Perhaps driftflo would be able to provide a little guidance.

Cheers,

Scharbag · 02-01-2021, 11:20 AM

One more question (I miss newTIS.info): When re-installing the diff, tighten the rear bolt to spec first and then the front 2 bolts correct?

Cheers,

Scharbag · 02-03-2021, 12:03 AM

Carrier back in one piece... let's hope that I did not screw anything up!!

Scharbag · 02-05-2021, 10:53 PM

Anyone know what the breakaway torque should be? Testing with a torque wrench on a bench tomorrow.

Scharbag · 02-06-2021, 06:26 PM

Tested the breakaway torque today. Happy I did. Something must have been off center as it would not move at 240ftlb. Took it apart, everything looked good. Reassembled and rotated before tightening the hat fully. This seems to center all of the internals properly.

Tightened the hat down fully and tested again. Breakaway was 120ftlb. This seems reasonable as I have found some info that shows the 210mm LSD with 2 clutches should be ~105ftlb.

Carrier should be swapped this coming week so here is hoping that next weekend I can report back how the ZF feels compared to the GKN.

Cheers,

Scharbag · 02-07-2021, 11:38 AM

Relocated this to the first post

Scharbag · 02-12-2021, 05:06 PM

The lump is in the car. So far, nothing to report as I am being gentle on it for a bit to break it in. Once I change the fluid out after the clutches have bedded in, I will update the thread (if anyone ever reads this drivel that I post).

SYT_Shadow · 02-12-2021, 05:43 PM

You have big balls to try this! I look forward to your impressions

There is so little information out there on these swaps, thank you for posting it up!

CSBM5 · 02-12-2021, 06:06 PM

With the standard ramps, be mindful of corner entry understeer that wasn't there before. If there's one thing I always wanted to change on my E39 M5 it was the LSD ramps and going with a milder decel ramp. It contributed to making that car a pig on corner entry...

Scharbag · 02-12-2021, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSBM5

With the standard ramps, be mindful of corner entry understeer that wasn't there before. If there's one thing I always wanted to change on my E39 M5 it was the LSD ramps and going with a milder decel ramp. It contributed to making that car a pig on corner entry...

Thanks for the input. I had thought that may be the case. I may order variable ramps and the 4 clutch hit in the future.

Perhaps my square setup with big 275s on the front will make it less understeery. Prior to this my car was a bit pointy. I will see how it changes.

Cheers,

frankc · 02-13-2021, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharbag

4. does anyone have the torque specs for the side covers on the diff? (I asume gutentight)

Awesome project. Did you ever find the torque spec for the side cover bolts?

amrazM · 02-13-2021, 05:48 AM

Racingdiffs is the best for sure,

this is a nice setup but I assure you the moment you put it in and it works you'll be ready to take it out and do a 4.10 simply because now you have the "know-how"

Scharbag · 02-14-2021, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amrazM

Racingdiffs is the best for sure,

this is a nice setup but I assure you the moment you put it in and it works you'll be ready to take it out and do a 4.10 simply because now you have the "know-how"

Regretting not getting the variable ramp set and 4 clutch kit... lol. But it is not hard to swap.

As for 4.10, I will get a set some day. Perhaps a GB some day? I used to have 4.10s but I lived in the prairies and drove on the highway at 80+ MPH a lot. Dumb move to sell that given now I live where 80+ MPH will get you impounded. 😡

Scharbag · 02-14-2021, 03:01 PM

German fucktardery at its finest...

How the sh!t does this come apart? 🤬

RomanK · 02-15-2021, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharbag

bought a new set of LSD clutches and 210mm carrier shims from RacingDiffs. Went with a 2 clutch stage 1 kit. Perhaps some day I will try out their variable ramp set and a 4 clutch setup. Baby steps.

I used both variants... 2 clutches set and 4 clutch..
2 clutch worked around 2-3 weeks... that is all.

4 clutches working good around one year and 20k km.

My story here: https://www.drive2.ru/l/532269182033594153/
Sorry but it is on Russian but you can translate...

Scharbag · 02-15-2021, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomanK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharbag

bought a new set of LSD clutches and 210mm carrier shims from RacingDiffs. Went with a 2 clutch stage 1 kit. Perhaps some day I will try out their variable ramp set and a 4 clutch setup. Baby steps.

I used both variants... 2 clutches set and 4 clutch..
2 clutch worked around 2-3 weeks... that is all.

4 clutches working good around one year and 20k km.

My story here: https://www.drive2.ru/l/532269182033594153/
Sorry but it is on Russian but you can translate...

Thanks. Why did the 2 clutch system fail?

01-25-2021, 06:09 PM	#1
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	Differential Swap Question (E39 M5 LSD) I built a new diff with an E39 M5 LSD. I have gotten so much great information from this community I thought I would share my experience. bigjae1976 has given me some great info on another thread!! The plan was to buy a used case, side covers, input flange and rear cover as well as new LSD clutches, seals, bearings, shims etc. to build a complete new diff. I will also need a ring and pinion but may use the opportunity to go to 4.10 gears given they suit where I live. I chickened out of this and just hammered the ZF carrier into my existing pumpkin with the stock 3.85 ring and pinion. After some research, I found the following: I did not touch the pinion but I bought the parts for future (Thanks to @Andrew for some great info in another post): Pinion: F.A.G. large pinion bearing - F-237542.02.SKL-H79 F.A.G. small pinion bearing - F-237541.02.SKL-H79 Pinion shim - do not even get me started on these... Unicorns are easier to find!! Pinion seal - 33121213949 Pinion dustcover (if needed) - 33137600693 Pinion crush sleeve - 33121204657 <-- this makes sense as all old 210mm diffs seem to use this sleeve Pinion nut securing plate - 33121205138 Pinion nut - cannot find the exact part number - anyone have this? Carrier Koyo carrier bearings (X2) - JLM104948 Koyo carrier race (X2) - JLM104910 Carrier seals (X2) - 33107510289 O-rings for the side covers - 33111214144 Side cover shims - got a package of these from RacingDiffs.com (21Nm tightening torque - cross wise) E39 M5 output drive flanges (X2) - 33131214068 Drive flange dust covers (small - if needed) - 33122283079 Drive flange dust covers (large - if needed) - 33137840562 Output shaft bolts (X16 - if needed) - 33211227944 Pinion flange bolts (X6 - if needed) - 26117526322 <-- check for special balance bolt/washer based on pinion color marking Ring gear bolts (X10) - 33132227347 (Grade 12.9, 14x1.5x25) LSD cap bolts (X8) - ??? (Grade 10.9, could not find part number - will update if I find this part number) LSD clutch rebuild kit - I used RacingDiffs.com Stage 1 rebuild kit (2 clutch pack with new pre-load washers) Loctite 272 for ring gear bolts and cap bolts - I am truly committed!!! Loctite 5970 (83190404517) to seal rear cover (60Nm bolt torque) Installation of the clutch kits is relatively straight forward. The one things I learned was before compressing the clutch assembly with the cap, it is best to put both output flanges in the diff and rotate the clutches and spider gears. This seems to properly center everything in the carrier. After this, tighten the cap down and test to make sure nothing is binding. In my case, I measured ~120ftlb of breakaway torque. RacingDiffs told me to expect ~115Nm when new dropping to 100Nm once the clutches are bedded in. I will keep you all posted. As for actual installation into my pumpkin, I had that done by a gearing specialist here in Victoria. He has zero issues and was able to set the pattern, lash and pre-load without any issues. Diff got put back into the car. After a single drive, it snowed here. So, it will be a bit before I can properly test this pumpkin out! Again, thanks to all those who have helped me in this little endeavor. Cheers, Attached Images __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies... Last edited by Scharbag; 11-14-2021 at 11:51 PM..
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01-26-2021, 10:56 PM	#2
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	Soldiering forth with this adventure. Got a bearing/seal set on the way. Also bought a new set of LSD clutches and 210mm carrier shims from RacingDiffs. Went with a 2 clutch stage 1 kit. Perhaps some day I will try out their variable ramp set and a 4 clutch setup. Baby steps. Found a local shop that is willing to help with the bearing press and gear setup. Everyone locally has basically said that the ball bearing pinion setup is very difficult to setup. So, I am just going to swap diff carriers instead of building a spare diff. Some day, if I want to go with 4.10 gears, I will have to tackle the pinion. Perhaps some more information will be available to help set pre-loading. Or, in a perfect world, someone will figure out how to replace the nuisance ball bearings with roller bearings... Dare to dream. Need to clean everything up and get it ready for the new stuff. Fingers crossed everything works out!! Cheers, Attached Images __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
	Appreciate 3 Epoustouflant1164.00 SYT_Shadow11479.50 SilverSlug680.00 Quote

01-29-2021, 12:03 PM	#3
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	Making progress. Parts on order. Decided to not touch the pinion and swap carriers. Going to replace the carrier bearings and races. Also decided to go with a stage 1 racingdiffs service pack. Keeping the 45/45 ramps and 2 clutch setup for now. In the future, I may decide to try out the variable ramp set and/or the 4 clutch setup. Fun fact - it seems like Serbia, Latvia and Estonia are hotbeds for differential parts. Who would have thought... And, sweet mother of pearl have cordless tools come a long way. 1,400ftlb of breaking torque from this magical wizard device. It broke the ring bolts loose even though they had red loctite on them. Crazy. Anyway, all cleaned up and ready to go once parts arrive. Everything seems pretty straight forward so far. Cheers, Attached Images __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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01-30-2021, 04:10 AM	#4
ZiMMie Enlisted Member 26 Rep 40 Posts Drives: S54/E36 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	Which school did you steal that pencil sharper from? __________________ @Mykekfz - Instagram E36'S54 \| E46ti'M54 \| E85'M54 \| E91'N52B25 \| E60'S85 \| MK8'GTE
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01-30-2021, 04:17 AM	#5
Epoustouflant Banned 1164 Rep 451 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Montreal iTrader: (0)	Nice! That's a setup Florian does a lot in Europe using the M5's ZF LSD.
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02-01-2021, 11:20 AM	#8
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	One more question (I miss newTIS.info): When re-installing the diff, tighten the rear bolt to spec first and then the front 2 bolts correct? Cheers, __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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02-03-2021, 12:03 AM	#9
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	Carrier back in one piece... let's hope that I did not screw anything up!! Attached Images __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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02-05-2021, 10:53 PM	#10
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	Anyone know what the breakaway torque should be? Testing with a torque wrench on a bench tomorrow. __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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02-06-2021, 06:26 PM	#11
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	Tested the breakaway torque today. Happy I did. Something must have been off center as it would not move at 240ftlb. Took it apart, everything looked good. Reassembled and rotated before tightening the hat fully. This seems to center all of the internals properly. Tightened the hat down fully and tested again. Breakaway was 120ftlb. This seems reasonable as I have found some info that shows the 210mm LSD with 2 clutches should be ~105ftlb. Carrier should be swapped this coming week so here is hoping that next weekend I can report back how the ZF feels compared to the GKN. Cheers, __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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02-07-2021, 11:38 AM	#12
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	Relocated this to the first post __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies... Last edited by Scharbag; 02-18-2021 at 03:47 PM..
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02-12-2021, 05:06 PM	#13
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	The lump is in the car. So far, nothing to report as I am being gentle on it for a bit to break it in. Once I change the fluid out after the clutches have bedded in, I will update the thread (if anyone ever reads this drivel that I post). __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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02-12-2021, 05:43 PM	#14
SYT_Shadow ///M Powered for Life 11480 Rep 10,328 Posts Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Greenwich, CT iTrader: (2)	You have big balls to try this! I look forward to your impressions There is so little information out there on these swaps, thank you for posting it up! __________________ DIY: S65 Rod Bearings E9X PFC Z54 BBK on F8X BK harness bar + seats: fit 6 tires in an M3 do88 Cooling Goodies GTS Twins: GTMore project
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02-12-2021, 06:06 PM	#15
CSBM5 Brigadier General 2721 Rep 3,335 Posts Drives: 2019 M2 Comp, 2011 M3, etc Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Greenville, SC iTrader: (2)	With the standard ramps, be mindful of corner entry understeer that wasn't there before. If there's one thing I always wanted to change on my E39 M5 it was the LSD ramps and going with a milder decel ramp. It contributed to making that car a pig on corner entry... __________________ Current Stable: 2024 G20 M340i Melbourne Red/Cognac 2019 F87 M2 Competition 6MT, LBB, slicktop, exec pkg 2007 E91 328i Silver, slushbox, Eibach fr/E93 M3 rear sway bars, ARC-8
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02-13-2021, 05:48 AM	#18
amrazM mTekMods 2142 Rep 2,901 Posts Drives: like a granny. Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Manhatan iTrader: (1)	Racingdiffs is the best for sure, this is a nice setup but I assure you the moment you put it in and it works you'll be ready to take it out and do a 4.10 simply because now you have the "know-how" __________________ 2011 Frozen Black/Fox Red E90 M3 650+WHP G-Power Supercharged First DCT to Manual Conversion Worldwide KW CS, BBS RI-A, BW Headers, Snow 2.5
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02-14-2021, 03:01 PM	#20
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	German fucktardery at its finest... How the sh!t does this come apart? 🤬 Attached Images __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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