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      10-19-2018, 11:13 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
SMG? The manuals were a bit touched.
The SMG is like a semi auto, they're shit
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      10-19-2018, 12:02 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Savageenterprise View Post
I took delivery of my 6MT 340 at the end of September and while it's not the best manual I've ever driven I still really enjoy rowing my own gears. It's about the control and fun for me, not 0-60 times.

3 years from now when this lease is up, I probably wont even have a 6MT option to jump to in my price range. May just say screw it and get a truck or something if I've gotta drive an automatic.

I bought a truck with a manual.
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      10-19-2018, 12:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by yco View Post
i like manuals on track not in the traffic..
I love driving my MT 325i on open roads, but hated commuting in DC beltway traffic in it for the last several years. Especially since drivers there loved the "gun it and then slam on the brakes" method to move forward 50 ft.

On the bright side, it was a great toning workout for my calves!
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      10-19-2018, 03:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
It's a chicken or the egg issue.

First, there is financial incentive for auto makers not to make TWO separate type of transmission for each make and model. Before globalization and federal mandates to standardize testing, offering a manual and an auto has zero impact on the company's bottom line. But now it cost hundreds of millions just to make sure you can sell BOTH a manual and an auto around the world. The math is simple. ANYONE can drive an auto. Not everyone can drive a manual. Financially it's much easier to justify the cost of federalizing an automatic, rather than both an automatic AND a manual.

Now, is it hard to sell a manual because no one knows how to drive it, or is it hard to find a manual because dealerships don't stock it, therefore fewer and fewer people buy and learn how to drive manuals? When I bought my first manual, dealership almost always have a handful of manuals on the lot so it wasn't hard to find the car I wanted. Now, if you're looking to buy your first manual from a dealership? Good luck, you're locked in to like half a dozen models that still makes manuals, and the likelihood of a dealership stocking said manual is slim and NONE. Unless you're looking specifically for 2 or 3 models, like the Civic Type R or Mustang Bullit, there are no dealers willing to stock a manual where an automatic is available (and by automatic I want to include DCTs and automated manuals like DCTs). So if you're not wanting the mark-ups on a CTR or Bullit? Have fun. The last manual I bought off the lot, I got a MASSIVE 25% discount off of MSRP because the dealer couldn't give it away. It's the only manual on their lot, and it's been sitting there on the lot for nearly 2 years with 20 miles on it. No one wanted it because no one can drive it.

This is the end result of years and years of dealership not willing to stock and hold a car that a minority of drivers will look at, with pressure from auto makers to kill a second cost to federalize, and since manuals are harder and harder to find, fewer and fewer buyers know how to drive a manual thus it basically KILLS the manual.

It's not performance, efficiency, or cost of ownership that kills the manual. Otherwise, if those were factors AUTOMATIC transmissions would have been killed long ago.
So what you're really saying is that the manual is dying because a substantial and increasing number of humans can't coordinate their feet and their hands at the same time.

Okay now I'm depressed.

To compensate I think I'll take the cabriolet for a spin and dazzle my wife with my double clutch downshifts, which she thinks are some kind of magic I do, which I find amusing and, a little bit, you know, energizing -- like the bunny.
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      10-19-2018, 04:25 PM   #49
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Any stats on manual windows? Drum brakes? AM radios?
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      10-19-2018, 04:37 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
So what you're really saying is that the manual is dying because a substantial and increasing number of humans can't coordinate their feet and their hands at the same time.

Okay now I'm depressed.

To compensate I think I'll take the cabriolet for a spin and dazzle my wife with my double clutch downshifts, which she thinks are some kind of magic I do, which I find amusing and, a little bit, you know, energizing -- like the bunny.
No I am saying itís like any specialized craft. If you donít have young end willing to learn the craft, of experienced craftsmen willing to teach the craft, you will continue to marginalize the craft.

Same can be said of American manufacturing. American manufacturing in certain industry is dead, but is it because American craftsmen arenít competitive on a global scale, of is it globalization thatís causing American craftsmen to lose their jobs to a point that no one wanted to be a craftsmen?

In a way the death of manuals reflect American blue collar manufacturing jobs. Regulations were in place that made American manufacuring uncompetitve, and now decades later itís too late to reverse the trend. It really wasnít that American manufacturing was inferior to China, but DECADES of decline lead to a point where American manufacturing can no longer BE competitive.

Howís anyone who wants to learn how to drive a stick learn when there are very few manuals left on the road?
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      10-19-2018, 05:39 PM   #51
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American manufacturing was inferior to foreign, Japan in particular. One could argue it still is, although itís made big gains. Since WWII, our strength has shifted to inventing technology, new processes, making them faster, more efficient, developing, rather than cranking out thousands of widgets on an assembly line. Itís inevitable that as much will be automated as possible and manufactures will seek to make things as cheap and fast as possible. Emerging industrial countries with plentiful population will always kick our a$$ at manufacturing. Not just because no OSHA, but because they have an almost limitless supply of labor that will improve their economic situation even working far cheaper than 1st world countries. Then when you want to sell abroad is hard to not get undercut by these companies that can do everything for pennies on the dollar compared to what you do.
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      10-19-2018, 06:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Yes, but a lot of people are tied to "my wife has to be able to drive it occasionally"
Wife drives manual, we own three manual cars - she asked to learn so she "could drive cool old cars if the opportunity ever comes up".

Certainly there is a difference between driving enthusiasts and car enthusiasts
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      10-19-2018, 07:05 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 86Zed View Post
Wife drives manual, we own three manual cars - she asked to learn so she "could drive cool old cars if the opportunity ever comes up".

Certainly there is a difference between driving enthusiasts and car enthusiasts
True, however with some cars you can have some kind of auto and traffic-following feature for the monotonous stop-n-go to maintain distance and just not have to deal with it, then the same car can go out and rip through mountain curves. Even though I drive a manual, I have to admit some of that is appealing. You can still be a driving enthusiast with that IMO. To maximize in both situations costs $$$, but it's getting lower.
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      10-19-2018, 10:22 PM   #54
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I love my stick but automatics have their role. It just sucks that the option to buy new, manual cars is going away. I would like to, one day, have a stick m3 or Audi R8 911 etc and then have an automatic car for regular about the day driving...that’s really the power move
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      10-19-2018, 11:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shay2nak View Post
I am proud to say all my cars are 6MT, including my DD.
Same here; have never owned an automatic car. I'm lucky to live in an area where traffic isn't a big concern, and the transmission is such a big part of what makes driving fun to me that I'll have no issue switching from Audi and BMW to whatever random crapbox is still offering a stickshift when the time comes.
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      10-20-2018, 10:30 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherM4n View Post
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Originally Posted by shay2nak View Post
I am proud to say all my cars are 6MT, including my DD.
Same here; have never owned an automatic car. I'm lucky to live in an area where traffic isn't a big concern, and the transmission is such a big part of what makes driving fun to me that I'll have no issue switching from Audi and BMW to whatever random crapbox is still offering a stickshift when the time comes.
Already made the move to VW. More fun than our recent BMW's and Audi's anyway.

I've lived in LA and DFW and don't really understand the traffic with manuals thing anyway.
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      10-20-2018, 08:11 PM   #57
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We had a 1990 Toyota 4Runner with a manual. During the summer of '99 we ordered a 2000 4Runner to replace it. It also has a 5sp manual, the last year Toyota offered it as an option. It's going strong after 150,000 miles. I don't go off road per se, but it is very trail capable and excels in the snow.
I'm lucky to have found my E92 with the third pedal.
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      10-21-2018, 01:24 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Caffeine Powered View Post
We had a 1990 Toyota 4Runner with a manual. During the summer of '99 we ordered a 2000 4Runner to replace it. It also has a 5sp manual, the last year Toyota offered it as an option. It's going strong after 150,000 miles. I don't go off road per se, but it is very trail capable and excels in the snow.
I'm lucky to have found my E92 with the third pedal.
The thing about our ~92 4runner was that it was hands down the worst "4wd" vehicle I've ever driven. Basically, when traction started getting iffy, it would send all the power to the wheel that was spinning. Huge WTF? Our slightly older 4cyl toyota pickup was infinitely better in the snow and nasty stuff. These things eventually got ironed out in later models, but it was embarrassing to have to yet yanked out of snow-banks by a subaru.
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      10-22-2018, 12:57 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
Any stats on manual windows? Drum brakes? AM radios?
Yeah they're right next to the internal combustion engine stats.
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      10-25-2018, 08:20 PM   #60
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The graph is interesting. I can't bring it up now, but from 97 to 01 (?) there was a steep drop in manuals then it levels off. Something went on during those 4/5 years to accelerate the decline, otherwise it would sit at 15% instead of 5%.

I am proud to say all my cars are 6MT, including my DD.
Same. I wonít own an automatic.
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      10-26-2018, 07:37 PM   #61
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As much as I hate being that guy... I think it's time to move on. My current two cars are both MT. But for my next car, MT won't be a deal breaker anymore.
Yup. I've been a hardcore MT guy my whole life. My last manual car was 5 years ago. Now that they are really on the way out, however, I think my next weekend car will be a manual... one more until that long kiss goodnight.
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      10-26-2018, 11:31 PM   #62
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      10-28-2018, 09:46 AM   #63
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I actually don’t have a problem with the DCT. I think it’s great when manually shifted and when cruising in 7th gear on the highway. Which brings me to... all we need is a 7th gear added to the manual tranny ala Porsche Then gas mileage will be equal to DCT and it will be cheaper in cost. No negatives. So what’s the problem BMW!?!

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      11-01-2018, 10:46 AM   #64
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... all we need is a 7th gear added to the manual tranny ala Porsche Then gas mileage will be equal to DCT and it will be cheaper in cost. No negatives. So whatís the problem BMW!?!
Easier said than done. There's only 2 7 speed manuals on the market today, the Tremec TR-7060 and the ZF 7 that's equipped on the Porsche.

BOTH ARE TRANSAXLES. Meaning they're designed to have the diff and transmission integrated together.

There are no other 7 speed manuals on the market right now, and no plans to offer 7 speed manuals in the future that does not involve a transaxle setup. That's why you won't see a 7 speed manual on a BMW because one does not exist.
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      11-01-2018, 11:02 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotechnology View Post
... all we need is a 7th gear added to the manual tranny ala Porsche Then gas mileage will be equal to DCT and it will be cheaper in cost. No negatives. So what’s the problem BMW!?!
Easier said than done. There's only 2 7 speed manuals on the market today, the Tremec TR-7060 and the ZF 7 that's equipped on the Porsche.

BOTH ARE TRANSAXLES. Meaning they're designed to have the diff and transmission integrated together.

There are no other 7 speed manuals on the market right now, and no plans to offer 7 speed manuals in the future that does not involve a transaxle setup. That's why you won't see a 7 speed manual on a BMW because one does not exist.
Ultimately he's really just asking for a deeper overdrive, which can easily be accomplished with a six speed. Having driven the Corvette and 991, I'd happily choose a 6s over either of those, just as Porsche did with the GT3.
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      11-01-2018, 12:13 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Easier said than done. There's only 2 7 speed manuals on the market today, the Tremec TR-7060 and the ZF 7 that's equipped on the Porsche.

BOTH ARE TRANSAXLES. Meaning they're designed to have the diff and transmission integrated together.

There are no other 7 speed manuals on the market right now, and no plans to offer 7 speed manuals in the future that does not involve a transaxle setup. That's why you won't see a 7 speed manual on a BMW because one does not exist.
Thanks for this!!! Who would've known...always wondered why there wasn't a much needed 7th!
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