Any reports on used WPC treated bearings?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

You are surely not naive enough to think that Castrol has any say in which Castrol oil BMW specifies for use for the S65?
IAC Castrol has a perfectly good 0W40 that could be used if that viscosity range gave a benefit.

Let me rephrase your question is a slightly more friendly way.

One or two people have reported on this forum knowledge of an agreement between BMW and Castrol with respect to the use and promotion of 10W60. According to these people, BMW and Castrol have an agreement to promote 10W60 oil in exchange for Castrol covering the warranty of engine related failures for some period of time. You are asking me if I'm naive enough to believe that such an agreement could possibly exist. Answer: YES. While I have no such knowledge of an agreement myself, I am naive enough to believe that such an agreement could exist because agreements like this are often created between businesses with a symbiotic relationship such as BMW and Castrol.

But turning your own logic around on you, BMW could have chosen 0W40 if that viscosity range gave a benefit. Same logic would hold true for Mobil-1, Motul, or any other oil manufacturer. BMW could chose those companies also because they make perfectly good engine oils. But BMW doesn't do this because they have an exclusive contract with Castrol. So are you naive enough to believe that such an agreement could NOT exist with between BMW and Castrol to promote 10W60 in exchange for indemnity from Castrol for engine related failures?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

...I don't find it convincing when random drive-by posters rave about how great something is, without even giving a reasonable argument as to why.

Exactly.

It's the micro-microcosm of WPC treated bearing fanboys...

[swamp2]

As long as we are diverging into an oil discussion the new M3/4 is speced with 0W-30...

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=965749

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Exactly.

It's the micro-microcosm of WPC treated bearing fanboys...

Swamp, I know you like to play devil's advocate but the flame bating is unnecessary. People are entitled to their opinions even in the absence of data. That doesn't make them fanboys or anything else. And calling them fanboys doesn't move the conversation forward in a constructive manner either.

To play devil's advocate a little on you...since some of them have described years of experience with WPC treatment on bearings, that makes them much more qualified to speak on the topic WITHOUT being called a fanboy than the guy calling them a fanboy with no related experience at all.

Given the pinnacle of perfection claimed by the 10W60 fanboy's, I'm shocked that F80 uses 0W30!

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by regular guy

So are you naive enough to believe that such an agreement could NOT exist with between BMW and Castrol to promote 10W60 in exchange for indemnity from Castrol for engine related failures?

Could such an agreement exist? absolutely, anything is possible.
Is it likely? almost certainly not.
I think the technical partnership between Castrol and BMW was put into place around 1999. Would *you* put in a clause into a contract that made you liable for future engine failures. And why only be liable for the M3? why not the whole BMW range? The idea is beyond believable.
AIUI the contract is for Castrol to provide millions of gallons of oil as BMW OEM first fill oils. Castrol get the revenue from this and the promotion of their products by BMW and by their own marketing dept. BMW get millions of gallons of oil at reduced price. Do not be mistaken into thinking that this is an equal partnership....if the alliance ends, BMW can get their oil from any number of suppliers while Castrol can not get another BMW (or at least not easily).
BMW are of course restricted to using oil from Castrol's inventory but they have a wide choice of oils to choose from.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Could such an agreement exist? absolutely, anything is possible.
Is it likely? almost certainly not.
I think the technical partnership between Castrol and BMW was put into place around 1999. Would *you* put in a clause into a contract that made you liable for future engine failures. And why only be liable for the M3? why not the whole BMW range? The idea is beyond believable.
AIUI the contract is for Castrol to provide millions of gallons of oil as BMW OEM first fill oils. Castrol get the revenue from this and the promotion of their products by BMW and by their own marketing dept. BMW get millions of gallons of oil at reduced price. Do not be mistaken into thinking that this is an equal partnership....if the alliance ends, BMW can get their oil from any number of suppliers while Castrol can not get another BMW (or at least not easily).
BMW are of course restricted to using oil from Castrol's inventory but they have a wide choice of oils to choose from.

I think it's a bit more naive to think agreements like this don't exist. You asked me if it even made sense. Yes of course it makes sense -- for the reasons mentioned and those that we discussed in other threads. I see contracts with similar clauses somewhat regulary. So from where I'm sitting, this makes perfect sense and indemnity clauses with a quid-pro-quo aren't even even abnormal.

There is a pretty serious article on another BMW forum from "Obioban" on the history of TWS 10W60, the connection with BMW, and agreements that might exist. The article references BITOG where there's apparently been quite a discussion about it as well. The source was Doug Hillary, former Castrol dude.

There's plenty of quotes from BMW employees in there as well.

While you are free to believe whatever you want, so am I. I'll never say with any certainty that any such agreement exists because I don't know...I'm only raising it because it's a point that is habitually ignored and shrugged off without even considering or investigating. And in this case, there appears to be plenty of information to find that seems to support it.

[GabeS]

Originally Posted by ibmike

Im no expert but IMO the WPC bearings are by far the better choice, as you probably know there not coated there Micro peened which makes a tough/slippery surface and actually improves clearance a little instead on making a tighter clearance like coated bearing do.

Not at all, look at forged rods/bearing/pistons, how many cars actually have forged parts?
It all comes down to cost. and probability of failure.
I assume the 335i came out with some forged parts/not all just 1 or 2, to do the minimum to increase longevity, without increasing cost too much.

WPC treating most internals on a 4/6 cyl can cost from $600-1200 now imagine a V8, and with Stealership costs=$3500-$5000 option?

no it's not gonna make your car super man but it is can reduce friction by even 5% I would go ahead and do it, if the parts are out of the motor already...
now keep in mind it reduces friction a lot lot more than that...

edit: Had some good graphs and microscope images of the surface but cat post them since they are protected... check this site out:


http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/tu.../photo_11.html


Before WPC

After WPC

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Swamp, I know you like to play devil's advocate but the flame bating is unnecessary. People are entitled to their opinions even in the absence of data. That doesn't make them fanboys or anything else. And calling them fanboys doesn't move the conversation forward in a constructive manner either.

To play devil's advocate a little on you...since some of them have described years of experience with WPC treatment on bearings, that makes them much more qualified to speak on the topic WITHOUT being called a fanboy than the guy calling them a fanboy with no related experience at all.

There is zero "flame baiting" here. That's inaccurate.

It's really quite simple. The burden of proof lies with those making claims. This is a pretty generic concept for science and rhetoric. When someone says, "WPC treatments rock" (or the equivalently vague...) and at the same time are unable to provide a shred of data that the statement is in fact true, then they can be called out on such. Even on a more basic level, don't you yourself, *really* want to know if WPC treatment does anything at all for bearings?

I saw no data at the vendor site and no one has offered any real data showing any advantage. I saw a few quotes and loose claims where it was also unclear as to which type of structure is being considered. Thus, the healthy, skeptical approach concludes that there is no (proven) benefit.

Such reasoning does not apply when common knowledge or even uncommon but perhaps obscure scientific data exists. Thus, no evidence is needed to substantiate a claim that "oil reduces friction on engine internals" (or a similar type of claim).

It also is not the case that I have no related experience. In addition to my eduction (which was largely theoretical) I also worked as a mechanical engineer and manufacturing engineer for many years. I investigated and specified bearings and coatings and performed wear testing on composite bearings. Am I an expert in micro-peening, no (and again definitely not in tribology either). In this case shot peening and micro peening do provide "common knowledge" benefits for hard metal alloys. The advantages are a harder surface from work hardening and a smoother surface. Again for a soft babbit composite/multilayered structure, I'm reasonably confident that no work hardening occurs and even if it did it raises the question if a harder bearing is a better one.

Last but not least, a quick examination of the link just above shows a gear scenario. I have reasonably high confidence that micro-peening is useful for such types of contact. I believe I even read long ago about a major transmission supplier testing and validating the technology. But again applicability and benefit for a connecting rod joint - babbit type bearing on a likely already microfinished journal is just not the same.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by regular guy

There is a pretty serious article on another BMW forum from "Obioban" on the history of TWS 10W60, the connection with BMW, and agreements that might exist. The article references BITOG where there's apparently been quite a discussion about it as well. The source was Doug Hillary, former Castrol dude.
There's plenty of quotes from BMW employees in there as well.
While you are free to believe whatever you want, so am I. I'll never say with any certainty that any such agreement exists because I don't know...I'm only raising it because it's a point that is habitually ignored and shrugged off without even considering or investigating. And in this case, there appears to be plenty of information to find that seems to support it.

I have read all those article and plenty more.
I can't say 100% that Castrol haven't given a blank cheque to BMW to cover every engine that may fail in the future....but I think its incredibly unlikely.
Standard business practice would be that as long as the oil supplied to BMW was to the agreed specification then Castrol would not be liable for anything. If they mistakenly supplied oil that was out of spec then that would be an entirely different kettle of poissons.

BTW Do you know if BMW USA has moved their list of approved oils? It doesn't seem to be where it used to be.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

If the benefits were unequivocally good, why wouldn't OEMs use WPC treated bearings? Or do they?

And if they don't use them, why don't they?

Cost to treat 1 set of rod bearings =$?
Cost of warranty claims on a predicted y% of engine failures @ $z per engine.

Make y = 0.5% and z = $15,000 and a round total of 60,000 engines (all ballpark figures, but shouldn't be massively off I hope).
300 times $15,000 = $4.5million.
$4.5million divided by 60,000 engines = $75
So if the mass manufacturing costs of treating 60,000 bearing sets was less than $75 a set (or $4.5million in total) then the cost/benefit would be to treat the bearings if they made a 100% improvement.
I'm guessing it wouldn't cost anywhere near $4.5million extra for BMW to have their bearings supplied WPC treated.

[LangRacingDevelopment]

http://www.langracing.com/images/Bearing_Load.pdf
http://www.langracing.com/images/Bearing_wear.pdf

[cenix]

Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment

http://www.langracing.com/images/Bearing_Load.pdf
http://www.langracing.com/images/Bearing_wear.pdf

First time I've seen these tests. Thanks for sharing. Do you guys use WPC treated parts in your race cars?

[LangRacingDevelopment]

Originally Posted by cenix

First time I've seen these tests. Thanks for sharing. Do you guys use WPC treated parts in your race cars?

We do more than most other people do I suspect. I use it particularly on parts that are seeing a lot of metal to metal contact. Wrist pins, camshafts, rocker arms, splined gears, etc.

[buddalun]

Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment

http://www.langracing.com/images/Bearing_Load.pdf
http://www.langracing.com/images/Bearing_wear.pdf

Sorry for bringing back an old thread.

Any longer term data here in regard to the WPC bearings being used in the s65? TIA

[GSTE34]

Can't just go straight to the bearings but also the rod bolts stretch and lots of guys get issues like that.Now that's how they get a nice little hole in the block, bearings could be fine but as soon as the rod bolts start to stretch, that's when rod knock also comes on to play when the bearing gets spun, happen to me unfortunately....

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by GSTE34

Can't just go straight to the bearings but also the rod bolts stretch and lots of guys get issues like that.Now that's how they get a nice little hole in the block, bearings could be fine but as soon as the rod bolts start to stretch, that's when rod knock also comes on to play when the bearing gets spun, happen to me unfortunately....

The rod bolts don't stretch in use. The issue revolving around the discussion of rod bolts is rod bearing bore distortion. The further away from perfectly round the bore is, the more likely it is that you'll see premature wear or failure. It's not an issue of the bolts stretching from use- these rod bolts don't even break a sweat.

[GSTE34]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

The rod bolts don't stretch in use. The issue revolving around the discussion of rod bolts is rod bearing bore distortion. The further away from perfectly round the bore is, the more likely it is that you'll see premature wear or failure. It's not an issue of the bolts stretching from use- these rod bolts don't even break a sweat.

Tell that to the hole in my block

[m3gasm]

Originally Posted by GSTE34

Tell that to the hole in my block

I'm dying laughing to this comment. Sorry about your block though

[ha9981]

Reviving from dead. Now that it is late 2020, anyone pulled WPC treated bearings at higher mileage?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by ha9981

Reviving from dead. Now that it is late 2020, anyone pulled WPC treated bearings at higher mileage?

I pulled a set, albeit in a E46M3.

The car had original bearings for 80k miles, then they were replaced for WPC OEM bearings and then I swapped them at 160k miles on the car, so the same miles as the original bearings.

Surprisingly, the WPC ones looked worse.

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I pulled a set, albeit in a E46M3.

The car had original bearings for 80k miles, then they were replaced for WPC OEM bearings and then I swapped them at 160k miles on the car, so the same miles as the original bearings.

Surprisingly, the WPC ones looked worse.

Hopefully this is just an isolated example?

I have WPC bearings since 2015 since that is what the shop recommended at the time. (I think now they recommend what everyone else is mentioning to get).

So that’s about 25,000 miles on the car and everything seems to be running nice. I was going to go another 25,000 miles then replace.

Will await anyone with further examples.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

Hopefully this is just an isolated example?

I have WPC bearings since 2015 since that is what the shop recommended at the time. (I think now they recommend what everyone else is mentioning to get).

So that’s about 25,000 miles on the car and everything seems to be running nice. I was going to go another 25,000 miles then replace.

Will await anyone with further examples.

I also would think it's an isolated example. WPC should not make anything worse