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      02-21-2018, 08:12 AM   #23
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Who cares what Mazda think?
If you do, then go out and buy a Mazda. I like Mazda and they make a great car, but there's nothing in their range that comes close to an M4 PERIOD. And that's the way I like it.
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      02-21-2018, 08:41 AM   #24
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I own both a Mazda 3 and an M3 and I can appreciate it for what it is. I absolutely love that car. It feels connected, responsive and I can easily zip around in it - moreso than any of the other compacts Ive driven. When I bought it, I also owned an E46 at the time and I was impressed how similar they felt.

I feel like most M3 drivers arent really understanding that the vast majority of BMWs range (not the Ms) are being tailored for the masses - non-enthusiasts, commuters etc. and this the reason BMW isnt a benchmark anymore. 15 years ago, you could pick nearly anything out of BMWs lineup and be happy as an enthusiast, commuter, family, or whatever else you are.
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      02-21-2018, 08:50 AM   #25
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Step 1- do not design vehicle suspensions around shitty runflats... go with regular tires
Step 2 - add feel back to steering
Step 3 - make the car feel like a solid brick like back in the day
Step 4 - profit
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      02-21-2018, 08:51 AM   #26
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      02-21-2018, 08:53 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihuahua View Post
Therein lies the problem.
99.9% of 320i owners could get the car in FWD and not tell any difference... its a standard cheap lease vehicle for the masses... at least Audi never had this issue with their cheap cars lol.
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      02-21-2018, 12:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Blksnowflake View Post
A Mazda sedan is so far behind a BMW sedan in performance and driving dynamics/prestige that it needs to benchmark something more attainable maybe.
And that's where you're wrong. Compare a Mazda 3 or 6's driving dynamics to a 320i or 330i xDrive or non M-Sport suspension and the Mazda easily comes out on top. I was shocked at how disappointing the BMW dynamics were compared to the Mazda. Even the M-Sport suspension wasn't worlds better. Additionally, Mazda's electric steering feel is way superior.
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      02-21-2018, 01:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer Werke View Post
Maybe so, but I'll still take any 3 Series over any Camry any day of the week,
The brand new base spec Camry I just had as a rental would have many in disagreement with you. Was it special? Hell no. But it was a damn good car and very connected to the road. No post 2013 BMW I've driven has come even remotely close. In some ways that includes M cars. Obviously not in all.
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      02-21-2018, 09:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihuahua View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY View Post
so essentially what this is saying is that camry handles better than a 3er
When I was car shopping last year I was considering leasing an F30 320i. My salesperson at my local dealer encouraged me not to. His exact words were "you might as well buy a Camry if you're considering this car." In fact, I ended up avoiding the F30 generation altogether and took home a very low mileage E90.
Kind of my situation. There is nothing in the current portfolio that is interesting to me. I consider the entire F generation as non-enthusiast cars. Hard to understand why they can't make at least M models feel connected like E9x. Porsche is building suvs but also 911s and caymans/718. Even Camaro is kicki ass.
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      02-22-2018, 12:19 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaRKle! View Post
And that's where you're wrong. Compare a Mazda 3 or 6's driving dynamics to a 320i or 330i xDrive or non M-Sport suspension and the Mazda easily comes out on top. I was shocked at how disappointing the BMW dynamics were compared to the Mazda. Even the M-Sport suspension wasn't worlds better. Additionally, Mazda's electric steering feel is way superior.
Let me help you since you don't want to say it. I own a 2015 M Sport 335i and the Mazda 6 Sport has a better suspension. It's reasonably compliant, loads up nicely and turn in is better on the Mazda6. It feels like a more sporty vehicle then my 335i.

On a track? The BMW claws a lot back with higher absolute grip, better brakes, better transmissions and far better engines. But in terms of feel and overall suspension tuning? Mazda is still better.

There I said it.
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      02-22-2018, 12:48 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDD31 View Post
More evidence of BMW no longer being the Ultimate Driving Machine:

Mazda benchmarking the Toyota Camry now instead of BMW

https://www.motor1.com/news/233390/m...oyota-not-bmw/
No camry is gonna kick my ass round the track
Mazda using Camrys as benchmarks just means theyve lowered their bar..

The rumors of BMW's demise are GREATLY EXAGGERATED.. says my daily butt dyno
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      02-22-2018, 01:03 AM   #33
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I'm currently looking into a new winter car for next year. The camry is on my list of cars to test drive, a list that has no BMW products on it. I've seen the new camry on display at the mall, and my initial impressions were positive. I never thought I would consider buying a camry, but here we are.

It might be worth mentioning that I am cross shopping the camry in a fully optioned configuration with other vehicles at a similar price point.

Last edited by Refined; 02-22-2018 at 08:11 AM.
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      02-22-2018, 03:22 AM   #34
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From a technical standpoint, if a brand you use to benchmark your product no longer up to snuff, you change it to who is. That's what Mazda did and it just so happens to be Toyota. Seems like everybody is freaking out its not Porsche, Mercedez or "Soup". This F gen of BMW haven't been very good on steering and only recently started to get better but Mazda can't wait for that. I'm surprised too the Camry turned out the way it did and wonder who they got developing it. I wouldn't be surprised if they benchmark a Hyundai soon either. Mazdas are seriously good cars and don't look like Predators like Toyotas now. The only thing that drives me nuts about them is they stick 4 cylinders in everything. Their cars handle sooo good but the power infuriates me. I can only imagine if they ever put a 6 cylinder in their Mazda6.
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      02-22-2018, 11:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
The rumors of BMW's demise are GREATLY EXAGGERATED.. says my daily butt dyno
It's funny that if you want to find a group of people who most hate a brand, go to the enthusiast site.
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      02-22-2018, 01:23 PM   #36
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I call BS on this article - and those who accept the premise so easily (that this is all b/c BMW is now inferior to a Camry ?!?). Not that they aren't benchmarking Toyota - but consider perhaps, just maybe, because it is the best seller? Don't let the recent collaboration on a halo car (Supra/z4) get in the way of another opportunity to bash BMW for losing their way - no signs of benchmarking BMW w/ this, right?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with much of what is posted here, and I REALLY hope BMW is listening to the underlying message - the 3 series I've driven have all failed to impress, but that is vs. my 2 series. The problem is that most of the buying public wants what we hate - numb, smooth, placid travel and a low price (that's also why Mazda remains a financial backmarker - their commitment to driving feel leaves a smaller segment). At least they get it that it is better to be a great car than a popular one.
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      02-22-2018, 01:30 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I call BS on this article - and those who accept the premise so easily (that this is all b/c BMW is now inferior to a Camry ?!?). Not that they aren't benchmarking Toyota - but consider perhaps, just maybe, because it is the best seller? Don't let the recent collaboration on a halo car (Supra/z4) get in the way of another opportunity to bash BMW for losing their way - no signs of benchmarking BMW w/ this, right?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with much of what is posted here, and I REALLY hope BMW is listening to the underlying message - the 3 series I've driven have all failed to impress, but that is vs. my 2 series. The problem is that most of the buying public wants what we hate - numb, smooth, placid travel and a low price (that's also why Mazda remains a financial backmarker - their commitment to driving feel leaves a smaller segment). At least they get it that it is better to be a great car than a popular one.
The current model 3 series is a disappointment in my book. The first time I saw a E90 I was instantly in awe of the car and picked my first E9x up in 07. I don't have the same feel for the current model 3 but the 2 series is another story. I enjoy my chicks 228 and it feels like a sporty little car. I'm not in the market for a new car just yet but when it's time to buy it will probably be a M2 or M240.
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      02-23-2018, 04:58 AM   #38
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G30 5 series is a damn good car...this BMW lost its way garbage is well...garbage
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      02-23-2018, 08:46 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by BMWSeven View Post
G30 5 series is a damn good car...this BMW lost its way garbage is well...garbage
Not really. I would urge you to go drive an E60 car and get back to us. There's a marked difference between that and the new 5er. Current platform is much better than the F10, that is not in doubt, but it is still a step behind the BMW of old. My M Sport F30 does not drive as well (from a sport perspective) as my buddies E90 M Sport.
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      02-23-2018, 10:22 AM   #40
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I like the G30 - much better interior quality than the E60 (reminds me of my E39), quieter, reasonably sporty, looks a hell of a lot better.

I don't want a 5 to be so raw. The F10 looks great but went a little too soft, the G30 returns the luxury/sport balance.
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      02-23-2018, 04:47 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
Well, maybe when BMW fixes the numb steering and brake feel....
BMW must be benchmarking Toyota in that case.. and if so, they've got a LOOOOONG way to go.
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      02-23-2018, 07:18 PM   #42
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Mazda got in bed with Toyota recently. They are going to build cars together.

Maybe this messaging is part of the deal.

Just a guess.
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      02-23-2018, 08:57 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWSeven View Post
I like the G30 - much better interior quality than the E60 (reminds me of my E39), quieter, reasonably sporty, looks a hell of a lot better.

I don't want a 5 to be so raw. The F10 looks great but went a little too soft, the G30 returns the luxury/sport balance.
Of course a 12 year newer car has a better interior.
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      02-23-2018, 09:06 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blksnowflake View Post
A Mazda sedan is so far behind a BMW sedan in performance and driving dynamics/prestige that it needs to benchmark something more attainable maybe. Plus perhaps it all relates to sales success, much more Camrys are sold than 3 Series. At this present state if you think a Camry has better driving dynamics, performance, engine response, exhaust sound, transmission and prestige and overall looks than a 340, you're on crack.

Camrys and Accords are some of the ugliest cars on the road today. Mazda on the other hand actually makes some good looking cars.


^^said prestige twice, somebody loves his roundel
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