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      02-19-2018, 01:08 PM   #1
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Mazda now benchmarks Toyota instead of BMW

More evidence of BMW no longer being the Ultimate Driving Machine:

Mazda benchmarking the Toyota Camry now instead of BMW

https://www.motor1.com/news/233390/m...oyota-not-bmw/

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Car companies constantly compare their future products with models from other brands that are already on sale to see whether their new creations are ready to compete against the rivals. Mazda, for example, has been benchmarking its vehicles with BMW, because the two automakers share some philosophies about what a car should be. But this is no longer the case, as the Japanese manufacturer has switched its focus towards Toyota.

Hereís the reason. BMW enthusiasts know that some things have changed at the Bavarian marque and it is no longer prioritizing driving joy, despite proclaiming it is building the "ultimate driving machine." The way engineers program steering feel, engine response, and exhaust noise are making modern-day BMWs less engaging to drive, the connection between the driver and the machine is almost lost.
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      02-19-2018, 01:13 PM   #2
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BMW needs some refreshment for a long time.. they started it at last but it was a bit late actually..
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      02-19-2018, 01:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
BMW needs some refreshment for a long time.. they started it at last but it was a bit late actually..
True, BMW is in a bit of an odd spot. The X3 and X5 are among the best driving vehicles in their class. Porsche is perhaps better...

The sedans though are a different story, even most of the coupe's (2 series being an exception). Unless it's a full bore M car they've lost touch...even the M cars aren't the same though they're still quite good IMO.
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      02-19-2018, 01:30 PM   #4
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Maybe so, but I'll still take any 3 Series over any Camry any day of the week,
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      02-19-2018, 01:31 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by yco View Post
BMW needs some refreshment for a long time.. they started it at last but it was a bit late actually..
It's complicated for sure but changing consumer demand of the typical BMW owner, euro emissions/FE targets and autonomous driving technology.

When BMW teamed up with Apple about ten years ago, it was the beginning of the end sorta speak.
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      02-19-2018, 01:33 PM   #6
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Confused. Are you saying that a Camry is the Ultimate Driving Machine? Or are you saying that they're positioning the Camry as the Ultimate Driving Machine, and you agree because BMW has lost it's way?
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      02-19-2018, 01:40 PM   #7
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so essentially what this is saying is that camry handles better than a 3er
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      02-19-2018, 01:44 PM   #8
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Well, maybe when BMW fixes the numb steering and brake feel....
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      02-19-2018, 01:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
Confused. Are you saying that a Camry is the Ultimate Driving Machine? Or are you saying that they're positioning the Camry as the Ultimate Driving Machine, and you agree because BMW has lost it's way?
No what Iím saying is that itís a very sad state of affairs that Mazda would now benchmark the Toyota Camry for driving feel over any BMW. If that isnít a sure sign of BMWís move away from building the ultimate driving machine and focusing on selling cars to the masses then I donít know what is. I realize BMW is a business and theyíre in business to make money but theyíve really moved away from what made them great in the first place.
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      02-19-2018, 02:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer Werke View Post
Maybe so, but I'll still take any 3 Series over any Camry any day of the week,
I just picked up a 2018 Camry for my wife in November, we ordered it to her spec. After driving the Camry, I would rethink getting a 3 series unless it was a 340i. Her car is windchill pearl white with the top half painted black with red leather interior, let me tell you that the inside of that car is a very nice place to be. With all the safety equipment it brings standard and full LED headlights among other things, it is good commuter car IMO. The transmission is quick to downshift if you want to pass or just get on it, and the gas mileage is great. This car can actually take turns very fast, I was surprised. The 4 banger engine makes some noise to and makes it feel sporty, it's not the same Camry from before. I actually enjoy driving it. She sold her Benz E350 for this car and likes this car a lot more. And for the $4,200 I got off MSRP which brought the price down to 27k even, I would consider it again.
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      02-19-2018, 09:43 PM   #11
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I have a 2018 Camry SE as a commuter, I have to say the transmission takes forever to downshift and I'm comparing this to the 8 speed autos BMW and GM already have for years. It can handle turns previous Camry's cannot take, but it is no BMW. Toyota does have a color that I currently like more than any BMW offers now though, Galactic Aqua. For basic transportation, it works just fine. But let us not exaggerate fellas, Mazda probably means the FRZ/BRS and Lexus F-Sport cars. They might not be fast in a straight line or pretty, but reviewers have said the F-Sport cars are fun to drive. When the F-Sport GS came out people were mentioning the E39 M5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AW BMW View Post
I just picked up a 2018 Camry for my wife in November, we ordered it to her spec. After driving the Camry, I would rethink getting a 3 series unless it was a 340i. Her car is windchill pearl white with the top half painted black with red leather interior, let me tell you that the inside of that car is a very nice place to be. With all the safety equipment it brings standard and full LED headlights among other things, it is good commuter car IMO. The transmission is quick to downshift if you want to pass or just get on it, and the gas mileage is great. This car can actually take turns very fast, I was surprised. The 4 banger engine makes some noise to and makes it feel sporty, it's not the same Camry from before. I actually enjoy driving it. She sold her Benz E350 for this car and likes this car a lot more. And for the $4,200 I got off MSRP which brought the price down to 27k even, I would consider it again.
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      02-19-2018, 10:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90M3velocity View Post
I have a 2018 Camry SE as a commuter, I have to say the transmission takes forever to downshift and I'm comparing this to the 8 speed autos BMW and GM already have for years. It can handle turns previous Camry's cannot take, but it is no BMW. Toyota does have a color that I currently like more than any BMW offers now though, Galactic Aqua. For basic transportation, it works just fine. But let us not exaggerate fellas, Mazda probably means the FRZ/BRS and Lexus F-Sport cars. They might not be fast in a straight line or pretty, but reviewers have said the F-Sport cars are fun to drive. When the F-Sport GS came out people were mentioning the E39 M5.
I agree with this. Mazda's philosophy is cars that handle well and promote a true connection between driver, car, and road. Mazda has kept the Miata the same for ~20 years for a reason, because it offers what horsepower and outright speed can't. They try to translate this sensation and ideal to their full lineup. I can't imagine all Toyotas handle great, and I do know my F30 handled well, but Mazda's ideas seem very in-line with the philosophy behind the FRS/BRZ.

To keep things in perspective, BMW's next fully-fledged 2-door drop top sports car won't even be available in manual transmission... Ironically enough, it's co-engineered with Toyota though
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      02-19-2018, 10:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90M3velocity View Post
I have a 2018 Camry SE as a commuter, I have to say the transmission takes forever to downshift and I'm comparing this to the 8 speed autos BMW and GM already have for years. It can handle turns previous Camry's cannot take, but it is no BMW. Toyota does have a color that I currently like more than any BMW offers now though, Galactic Aqua. For basic transportation, it works just fine. But let us not exaggerate fellas, Mazda probably means the FRZ/BRS and Lexus F-Sport cars. They might not be fast in a straight line or pretty, but reviewers have said the F-Sport cars are fun to drive. When the F-Sport GS came out people were mentioning the E39 M5.
I am not comparing the Camry transmission to the bmw trans, as all my cars have been 6speed except for my truck. But my wife's car does downshift quickly for this type of car. Not sure why yours takes a long time to downshift, her previous car the E350 took a second to downshift and it was very annoying. This car does not do that, and will respond quickly and just goes. For a commuter car it is very perky. You might want to have your car checked if it indeed downshifts extremely slow. I do not think there is a difference between the SE and the XSE as far as the trans goes but I could be wrong as her car is an XSE. Anyway, I will not kid my self with BMW. If it's not an M car or at the very least a 340i, I would not over look another brands car that cost thousands less and offers almost similar features or better for the daily driver.
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      02-19-2018, 10:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AW BMW View Post
I am not comparing the Camry transmission to the bmw trans, as all my cars have been 6speed except for my truck. But my wife's car does downshift quickly for this type of car. Not sure why yours takes a long time to downshift, her previous car the E350 took a second to downshift and it was very annoying. This car does not do that, and will respond quickly and just goes. For a commuter car it is very perky. You might want to have your car checked if it indeed downshifts extremely slow. I do not think there is a difference between the SE and the XSE as far as the trans goes but I could be wrong as her car is an XSE. Anyway, I will not kid my self with BMW. If it's not an M car or at the very least a 340i, I would not over look another brands car that cost thousands less and offers almost similar features or better for the daily driver.
Once it's on the move it goes, but when I needed power it takes a while to downshift. I have to plan ahead when I need to make a move away from the rest of the traffic. I'm just saying Toyota has a had of time and examples to program an 8 speed auto.
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      02-20-2018, 12:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90M3velocity View Post
Once it's on the move it goes, but when I needed power it takes a while to downshift. I have to plan ahead when I need to make a move away from the rest of the traffic. I'm just saying Toyota has a had of time and examples to program an 8 speed auto.
You are right, they have had a lot of time to get the programming just right with the 8 speed auto. I will say, I test drove an SE but that cars engine and trans did not feel the same as my wife's car. I tell her she got a gifted car because it pulls like a v6 and the trans is willing to follow along, needless to say we are very happy with her car.

I did notice another thing, my dad has a 2017 Tacoma sport and I have a 2017 Tacoma pro, both transmissions do not feel the same and even he noticed it. Mine reacts quicker than his as far as shifting speed and his also has a minor clunk sound when slowing down sometimes. Don't really kbo what to make of it.

Back on topic, Mazda needs to try and stay with more drivers oriented cars. I had a Mazdaspeed 3 1st generation and I really loved the way it drove. Mazda follow Toyota over BMW, it sounds strange to me but what do I know.
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      02-20-2018, 10:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY View Post
so essentially what this is saying is that camry handles better than a 3er
When I was car shopping last year I was considering leasing an F30 320i. My salesperson at my local dealer encouraged me not to. His exact words were "you might as well buy a Camry if you're considering this car." In fact, I ended up avoiding the F30 generation altogether and took home a very low mileage E90.
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      02-20-2018, 12:40 PM   #17
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There is no comparison of Toyota/Mazda with BMW. Comm'on
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      02-20-2018, 01:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihuahua View Post
When I was car shopping last year I was considering leasing an F30 320i. My salesperson at my local dealer encouraged me not to. His exact words were "you might as well buy a Camry if you're considering this car." In fact, I ended up avoiding the F30 generation altogether and took home a very low mileage E90.
I'd probably buy a new accord over a 320i...in fact I know I would. But they still serve their purpose, which is to get people into the brand then have them upgrade later.

E90 is a great car, good dynamics and fun as hell to drive.
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      02-20-2018, 03:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihuahua View Post
When I was car shopping last year I was considering leasing an F30 320i. My salesperson at my local dealer encouraged me not to. His exact words were "you might as well buy a Camry if you're considering this car." In fact, I ended up avoiding the F30 generation altogether and took home a very low mileage E90.
I think anyone who buys a 320i is probably doing it just for the badge. It really doesnít do anything better than itís competition.
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      02-20-2018, 03:19 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by aozer View Post
I think anyone who buys a 320i is probably doing it just for the badge. It really doesnít do anything better than itís competition.
Therein lies the problem.
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      02-20-2018, 11:26 PM   #21
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Quite the opposite

When I hear of Toyota being a benchmark, i would assume it would be to learn how to make a car that can garner great success in the marketplace. Toyota does that well. Mazda just wants to improve their sales. The zoom zoom and the emphasis on cars for drivers may not be working well enough. As noted by some others, lots of cars drive pretty well now and besides the future is going to be more and more electronic assistance. JMHO
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      02-21-2018, 06:40 AM   #22
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A Mazda sedan is so far behind a BMW sedan in performance and driving dynamics/prestige that it needs to benchmark something more attainable maybe. Plus perhaps it all relates to sales success, much more Camrys are sold than 3 Series. At this present state if you think a Camry has better driving dynamics, performance, engine response, exhaust sound, transmission and prestige and overall looks than a 340, you're on crack.

Camrys and Accords are some of the ugliest cars on the road today. Mazda on the other hand actually makes some good looking cars.
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