In car camera

[4u3]

Can anyone recomend a good in car camera to use during track events?

[M3V8Driver]

Just about any digital video camera with image stabilization will work fine. I think they all come with it standard these days. I can't speak for the various media types, but my Somy mini DVR (tape) works excellent, with NO pixilation whatsoever, and I've used it for over 60 races and track events (stiffly sprung Spec Miata and street M3). I suspect the mini DVDs might be prone to pixilation though (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

[KINGLEH]

i like my "FLIP HD"

cheap.. versatile... easy to use.

I just need to tape the Mic up for wind noise next time.. Cover the Mic area with paper towel or something..

one thing i can tell you is dont use a hard disk drive cam.. the high intensity vibrations will screw with it...

[niterider]

Try the hero gopro, cheap and it can mount anywhere. The videos come out good too.

[bigjae1976]

I have a sony camcorder with the Cruisecam headrest mount and the gopro. The gopro is cheaper ($140 on ebay) and does a good job.

The camcorder takes much better video but mounting options are obviously limited.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

i like my "FLIP HD"

cheap.. versatile... easy to use.

I just need to tape the Mic up for wind noise next time.. Cover the Mic area with paper towel or something..

one thing i can tell you is dont use a hard disk drive cam.. the high intensity vibrations will screw with it...

The hero is versatile, but has limited resolution. I'm looking into getting a cheap HD camera.

Flip HD seems to be getting good reviews in the lightweight inexpensive HD camera segment.

2 questions:
1. How do you secure the thing? I don't see an opening for screw?
2. Does it have external mic input? I'm thinking about getting a cheap remote mike and taping it somewhere in the trunk to eliminate wind noise and pick up the exhaust note.

[attila]

A little bit off topic.... I got tons of vibration using the cruisecam mount (attached to the headrest stalks). I have a relatively old (5years) and large Panasonic DV camera and put the cruisecam mount on the passanger side headrest. Any idea...

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by attila

A little bit off topic.... I got tons of vibration using the cruisecam mount (attached to the headrest stalks). I have a relatively old (5years) and large Panasonic DV camera and put the cruisecam mount on the passanger side headrest. Any idea...

Best bet, other than changing your camera for an optical image stabilzed one is to invest in some stabalization software. iStabilize for mac is good,I'm sure there are windows equivalents.

A lighter point and shoot camera might result in less vibration. Depends on the mount. My Sony DV was heavy and moved a lot on my simple bar mount, the digital powershot camera was lighter and moved much less.

Here's a link to video from my $100 canon image stabilized POwershot 850 on my $10 mount.Sadly I didn't adjust the mount high enough to get the cones in well.

http://files.me.com/pfitzpa1/xksbox.mov

WARNING! Big File


P.S my tires were bald!

[attila]

I will try some stabilization software. I have image stabilizer built in the camera, however I am not sure it was on or not. My mistake!

[bigjae1976]

Anyone try something like this mini wireless cam?

http://www.raidentech.com/24ghzmiwicoc.html

I wonder if you could just connect it to a camcorder and record video that way.

[RENN Spec]

Originally Posted by lucid

The hero is versatile, but has limited resolution. I'm looking into getting a cheap HD camera.

Flip HD seems to be getting good reviews in the lightweight inexpensive HD camera segment.

2 questions:
1. How do you secure the thing? I don't see an opening for screw?
2. Does it have external mic input? I'm thinking about getting a cheap remote mike and taping it somewhere in the trunk to eliminate wind noise and pick up the exhaust note.

Any one have any update on how to mount this camcorder? My gopro is nice but again, the quality isn't great when there's an elevation change and a sudden change in lighting.

[wolftrouble]

Huh. I'm kind of surprised there isn't more information in this thread. I didn't bother to answer for awhile, figuring someone else would. A few random comments:

You don't want image stabilization on for an in-car mount, regardless of whether your camera has it or not (turn it off if it does). IS systems don't handle well the kind of vibrations (oscillating) you get when shooting from a fixed point inside a car, and it's almost guaranteed that if you turn it on you're going to get very little stabilization and a whole lot of wobbly-looking video, as the IS continuously tries and fails to keep up with the changes. I've tried IS systems in Sony and Canon camcorders and have heard from other users of different systems that they've had the same problems. Turn it off, and use istabilize or whatever to fix it in post-production.

Video taken from CMOS-based camcorders (basically all of the newer HD ones that you could easily mount in a car) all use rolling shutters, and this interacts with in-car shooting poorly. Basically the problem is that the shutter 'scans' from top to bottom (Google "CMOS rolling shutter") which causes problems with fast pans (aka 'driving') or high-frequency anything - like vibration. I was going to put together some demonstration videos but you can see it easily in pretty much any video you take from a fixed mount point in a car. In fact, I think in some ways the CruiseCam helps compared to something that mounts more solidly to the car, since most of the high-frequency vibration dampens into slower wobbles that the shutter handles better. I'm not 100% sure on this though, it just seems that 'floatier' mounts seem to actually work *better* than hard and fixed mounts like vacuum.

Flip video cameras work pretty well (I've even tried using one just taping it to my bike). There is a standard threaded mount on the bottom of the camera, it says so on the specs page. You do still have to come up with a mount for it although it's easier than most heavier camcorders (you could try tape!)

You cannot, ever, use HD-based or disc-based cameras in in-car applications. If the shock sensor doesn't turn the camera off within a few seconds (it will) the drive will eat itself anyway. I've never had an HD-based camera stay on for more than a few seconds into a drive.

The GoPro is pretty cool but the video is crappy-ass SD and looks terrible - the videos they show on the site aren't really representative of the quality you'll usually get from one. It's a great idea but badly in need of higher quality components.

There are some HD 'separates' setups out there that work pretty well. The best of all possible worlds would be a high-def, unstabilized lens/CMOS (well, ok, 3xCCD but let's be reasonable), connected to a flash-based recorder, either in the house or separate. The VholdR seems pretty damn close, but I still see horrible blooming in high-contrast scenes (check out the demo videos, all the sky/background intersections look foggy) Stuntcams.com seems to have an HD offering but only one demo video, and it looks pretty ugly. Whether that's the encoding or the original video I don't know.

I'm heading to Infineon next month and I'm tired of trying to get my Vixia HF11 to shoot good video. I'll probably pick up one of the HD dash-mount or helmet-mount options out there before then and give it a shot, if I do I'll update the thread.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by wolftrouble

Huh. I'm kind of surprised there isn't more information in this thread. I didn't bother to answer for awhile, figuring someone else would. A few random comments:

You don't want image stabilization on for an in-car mount, regardless of whether your camera has it or not (turn it off if it does). IS systems don't handle well the kind of vibrations (oscillating) you get when shooting from a fixed point inside a car, and it's almost guaranteed that if you turn it on you're going to get very little stabilization and a whole lot of wobbly-looking video, as the IS continuously tries and fails to keep up with the changes. I've tried IS systems in Sony and Canon camcorders and have heard from other users of different systems that they've had the same problems. Turn it off, and use istabilize or whatever to fix it in post-production.

Video taken from CMOS-based camcorders (basically all of the newer HD ones that you could easily mount in a car) all use rolling shutters, and this interacts with in-car shooting poorly. Basically the problem is that the shutter 'scans' from top to bottom (Google "CMOS rolling shutter") which causes problems with fast pans (aka 'driving') or high-frequency anything - like vibration. I was going to put together some demonstration videos but you can see it easily in pretty much any video you take from a fixed mount point in a car. In fact, I think in some ways the CruiseCam helps compared to something that mounts more solidly to the car, since most of the high-frequency vibration dampens into slower wobbles that the shutter handles better. I'm not 100% sure on this though, it just seems that 'floatier' mounts seem to actually work *better* than hard and fixed mounts like vacuum.

Flip video cameras work pretty well (I've even tried using one just taping it to my bike). There is a standard threaded mount on the bottom of the camera, it says so on the specs page. You do still have to come up with a mount for it although it's easier than most heavier camcorders (you could try tape!)

You cannot, ever, use HD-based or disc-based cameras in in-car applications. If the shock sensor doesn't turn the camera off within a few seconds (it will) the drive will eat itself anyway. I've never had an HD-based camera stay on for more than a few seconds into a drive.

The GoPro is pretty cool but the video is crappy-ass SD and looks terrible - the videos they show on the site aren't really representative of the quality you'll usually get from one. It's a great idea but badly in need of higher quality components.

There are some HD 'separates' setups out there that work pretty well. The best of all possible worlds would be a high-def, unstabilized lens/CMOS (well, ok, 3xCCD but let's be reasonable), connected to a flash-based recorder, either in the house or separate. The VholdR seems pretty damn close, but I still see horrible blooming in high-contrast scenes (check out the demo videos, all the sky/background intersections look foggy) Stuntcams.com seems to have an HD offering but only one demo video, and it looks pretty ugly. Whether that's the encoding or the original video I don't know.

I'm heading to Infineon next month and I'm tired of trying to get my Vixia HF11 to shoot good video. I'll probably pick up one of the HD dash-mount or helmet-mount options out there before then and give it a shot, if I do I'll update the thread.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. Just to be clear, this is what you mean by Flip HD, right?

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camc...?tag=mncol;lst

I'm about to order one.

[skierman64]

I used a cheapy Hitachi DVD based camcorder with Image Stab turned on. It works fine for me and I've never had it shut off due to vibration during hours of HPDE driving. I use the Cruise cam and it works great. I also connect my camera using the home charger to a power inverter so I don't have to swap batteries at all during an entire day at the track. Swapping DVDs for each run is a bit of a pain, however, if I was to buy a new one I'd probably go with a HDD based cam so I could download videos at the end of the day or weekend. Sony makes a HDD based cam that records in Standard Def that sells for $350.

When I get home I'll post some youtube links in case you're interested in looking at the quality, it's probably not up to wolf's standards (above-he seems to be very much into the techie side of this) but it's fine for me.

Videos as promised


The Glen

Thunderbolt

Summit Point in a E36 M3

Lightning on Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...9195&ref=share

[wolftrouble]

Originally Posted by skierman64

I used a cheapy Hitachi DVD based camcorder with Image Stab turned on. It works fine for me and I've never had it shut off due to vibration during hours of HPDE driving. I use the Cruise cam and it works great. I also connect my camera using the home charger to a power inverter so I don't have to swap batteries at all during an entire day at the track. Swapping DVDs for each run is a bit of a pain, however, if I was to buy a new one I'd probably go with a HDD based cam so I could download videos at the end of the day or weekend. Sony makes a HDD based cam that records in Standard Def that sells for $350.

When I get home I'll post some youtube links in case you're interested in looking at the quality, it's probably not up to wolf's standards (above-he seems to be very much into the techie side of this) but it's fine for me.

Videos as promised

I'm surprised the DVD-based cam works for you but glad. What do you use for a mount?

I can't warn against HDD-based systems strongly enough, I have one (Sony HDR-SR1) and it shuts itself off with a shock warning within a few seconds of hitting the track. A friend of mine has another Sony one, can't recall the model, same problem. Especially nowadays, flash offerings are super-cheap and all solid-state is much safer for this kind of environment.

I'm also surprised you use an inverter and charger on the track. How do you secure it? I only reluctantly put the camera in the car, it'd scare the crap out of me to have a charger + inverter in the passenger compartment on the track. That's some heavy, sharp pieces of plastic and metal.

[wolftrouble]

Originally Posted by lucid

Thanks for the detailed feedback. Just to be clear, this is what you mean by Flip HD, right?

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camc...?tag=mncol;lst

I'm about to order one.

Yes indeed.

[kevkaz]

I use the cruise cam dual mount with a Sony High Def, HDD based recorder (HDR-SR11). Sometimes it shuts off when it gets bumpy, sometimes it works just fine. I'm thinking of trying it with a memory stick, since in theory it wouldn't need the HDD spinning and maybe it would become less sensitive to shock (my guess is that it will shut off sometimes either way). But when I do get video, HD is awesome!

[cchan]

I'll throw in some comments in no particular order:
- As mentioned before, the lighter the better with regards to vibration. Also from a risk perspective, heavier camcorders can become dangerous projectiles if you were to have an incident. Some groups don't allow suction mounts and require solid mounting. Also try to add a safety tether, so if it does come loose, the tether will keep it from flying around as far.
- Also, a wider viewing angle also reduces apparent vibration. I didn't see it mentioned before, but you can add a wide angle adapter to a typical camcorder. If the camera is mounted from the headrests, this will give good viewing coverage from A pillar to A pillar, and most importantly, show what you are doing with your hands on the steering wheel.
- The trick is positioning the camera angle best so that it can get a good exposure of both exterior and interior so outside isn't washed out and inside isn't all black. I would say generally the cheaper cameras are going to have a tougher time dealing with getting a good exposure, especially if lighting conditions change due to sun angles going around turns. With a wider angle lens, you can include more or less of the inside roof to try to help compensate.
- What is your goal in recording video? Nothing against HD or low res in particular, what I mean is, ask yourself what you are really going to do with the video. This may lead you to a lower res but easier to use choice, vs. nice HD video but is going to take up gobs of storage space/transfer time.

My first video solution years ago was a DV camcorder with wide angle adapter to tape, mounted off the headrests. Got tired of dealing with tape to PC transfers over firewire, not to mention tape sucked.

My current solution that is ~3 yrs old is a Hoyt wide angle bullet cam which feeds into a older Aiptek MPVR digital camcorder. The bullet cam only outputs regular video, but seems to have a pretty good optics/exposure compensation built in. Plus it is light and small, a lot more mounting location options and also minimizes vibration and projectile risk. The Aiptek itself is a lousy camcorder, but it does a good job at taking an analog video input and recording to digital on the flash card, at up to 30fps at VGA resolutions. So really I'm only using it as a analog to digital recorder and completely avoiding its built in optics. I only use QVGA so I can have more recording capacity. But after doing DEs for a while, I've really stopped saving video other than some of the more "interesting" runs, so I wind up just deleting a lot right off the memory card.

Edit: If I were to do it today, something like the Flip seems to be worth considering. I believe a number of Porsche guys on Rennlist have been using them (as well as newer Aipteks), and have figured out some hacks for powering the unit and wide angle lens adapters. Downside I've heard is it is limited to built in memory and USB transfers, and doesn't take cards.

The other question to ask is how much you want to spend...

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by wolftrouble

I'm surprised the DVD-based cam works for you but glad. What do you use for a mount?

I can't warn against HDD-based systems strongly enough, I have one (Sony HDR-SR1) and it shuts itself off with a shock warning within a few seconds of hitting the track. A friend of mine has another Sony one, can't recall the model, same problem. Especially nowadays, flash offerings are super-cheap and all solid-state is much safer for this kind of environment.

I'm also surprised you use an inverter and charger on the track. How do you secure it? I only reluctantly put the camera in the car, it'd scare the crap out of me to have a charger + inverter in the passenger compartment on the track. That's some heavy, sharp pieces of plastic and metal.

I use a cruisecam mount.

I'll take your warning on the HDD system. I've been thinking about one for a while, but your advice will lead me in another direction.

I put my inverter in the trunk I use a large metal hose clamp to mount it to the HD radio mount on the left side of the trunk (first remove the plastic tray). Then I run the cord between the rear seats to the cam mounted on the cruisecam. The inverter is clipped direct to the battery. That way the cam is the only item in the cockpit of the car.

Here are some pics I took of the inverter mounted securely. I used a junkmail envelope to keep the inverter from rubbing on the HD radio mount and then I used a papertowel to keep the hoseclamp from trashing the inverter. the paper towel didn't work so well, next time I might use an old mouse pad, sticky side toward the inverter.

[JC919]

GoPro to get you started. Then when you upgrade to another, you can stick the GoPro to the side of your car and get different angles.

[wolftrouble]

Originally Posted by skierman64

I use a cruisecam mount.

I'll take your warning on the HDD system. I've been thinking about one for a while, but your advice will lead me in another direction.

I put my inverter in the trunk I use a large metal hose clamp to mount it to the HD radio mount on the left side of the trunk (first remove the plastic tray). Then I run the cord between the rear seats to the cam mounted on the cruisecam. The inverter is clipped direct to the battery. That way the cam is the only item in the cockpit of the car.

Here are some pics I took of the inverter mounted securely. I used a junkmail envelope to keep the inverter from rubbing on the HD radio mount and then I used a papertowel to keep the hoseclamp from trashing the inverter. the paper towel didn't work so well, next time I might use an old mouse pad, sticky side toward the inverter.

Badass! Now you have me thinking... I think I have a project this weekend.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by wolftrouble

Badass! Now you have me thinking... I think I have a project this weekend.

Mine isn't a permanent installation, I only install it when I'm going to the track. The inverter won't fit under the plastic tray.