S85 DCT swap

[kolosy]

Been following this thread on M5 board for a while, thought you guys might find it interesting. Someone finally got what looks like a good implementation of S85 + our DCT going. He's using a maxxecu instead of the stock DME, but keeping the TCU and stock mechatronics, and looks like getting a comparable driving experience.

S85 swap, here i come!

https://www.m5board.com/threads/lets...5#post-7705226

[Soden82]

I saw this on IG. I wonder what the total expense came to be.

[rcracin]

What about emissions?

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by Soden82

I saw this on IG. I wonder what the total expense came to be.

earlier in the thread the guy offered to do it for someone for $10k. don't know if that includes the trans and ecu.. good deal if so. the ecu that can handle a v10 is $3,300

Originally Posted by rcracin

What about emissions?

you mean can the aftermarket ECU manage emissions? no idea.

[DRLane]

Howell / Elise Race engineering has done this repeatedly and basically offer an off the shelf solution via a Syvecs (Life Racing) ECU.

They’ll plug in play S65/S85 DCT into whatever you’re excited about.

https://www.eliseracing.com/

[Soden82]

I’m thinking a DCT can be had for about 2k ish. Plus the ECU and install would place it around 8-10k if done by someone else. Plus custom tuning

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Howell / Elise Race engineering has done this repeatedly and basically offer an off the shelf solution via a Syvecs (Life Racing) ECU.

They’ll plug in play S65/S85 DCT into whatever you’re excited about.

https://www.eliseracing.com/

I dont think I would want a syvecs on the street. this swap has to be done with a 6mt, rdnuno had the m6 gt3 car running the s85 with dct but nobody really knows how he did it. there is an rsa bypass for mss65/60 so making this work on a stock dme with a manual file is easy the rest is wiring.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by amrazM

I dont think I would want a syvecs on the street. this swap has to be done with a 6mt, rdnuno had the m6 gt3 car running the s85 with dct but nobody really knows how he did it. there is an rsa bypass for mss65/60 so making this work on a stock dme with a manual file is easy the rest is wiring.

if you scroll back through that thread you'll see a bunch of people trying that route with limited success. sounds like it's doable but no one managed to get the trans tuned to usability. Issues with throttle blips, auto shifting etc. This one seems to be the smoothest, most daily-able version I've seen.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by amrazM

I dont think I would want a syvecs on the street. this swap has to be done with a 6mt, rdnuno had the m6 gt3 car running the s85 with dct but nobody really knows how he did it. there is an rsa bypass for mss65/60 so making this work on a stock dme with a manual file is easy the rest is wiring.

Why? Their Syvecs Harrop solution is on many cars in this forum that are street driven. Entirely plug and play with no loss of any street functions.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Why? Their Syvecs Harrop solution is on many cars in this forum that are street driven. Entirely plug and play with no loss of any street functions.

Mainly, it's a concern for the folks who want to pass emissions testing; a standalone probably would fail that.

I looked into this type of swap religiously when I was in the process of building my 4.4L. It roughly comes out to 1.5x the finished cost of my motor.

My guesstimate for an S85/DCT E92 M3:

• $10K for the donor car (SoCal) (sell the bare chassis for some recoup)
• Custom headers/x-pipe; the headers are the biggest restriction on the S85 due to the primary cat being part of it.
• Modified subframe for engine mounts and oil pan.
• Possible dry sump kit to make room in the engine bay and clear the subframe.
• Full engine refresh before the swap.
• Maxxecu makes this an easy solution with the DCT while making it easy to operate the engine as well.
• A couple of hours of tuning to ensure the DCT and S85 are behaving.

Alternatively, if you are trying to DCT swap an E60 M5, you can use the HTG DCT TCU. However, that requires modifications to the mechatronics unit and works with the OEM DME. The modification is not hard to do; anyone with motorsports electronics experience or electrical experience can perform the required modifications.

[amg6975]

I have heard that's entirely possible to run the S85 with the MSS60 which already has tables and stuff for the DCT integration.

If that's true you could likely get an S85 running in an E9x with all OEM electronics.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by amg6975

I have heard that's entirely possible to run the S85 with the MSS60 which already has tables and stuff for the DCT integration.

If that's true you could likely get an S85 running in an E9x with all OEM electronics.

i think it's theoretically possible but practically difficult. again same thread, there were guys going down that path that got stuck. i know nothing of their qualifications and doesn't mean someone else can't, but i just know the outcome.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by kolosy

i think it's theoretically possible but practically difficult. again same thread, there were guys going down that path that got stuck. i know nothing of their qualifications and doesn't mean someone else can't, but i just know the outcome.

the issue is that its not just the DME, but the CAN Busses as well. You'd need them to communicate.

Awron has made a can gateway, but that is expensive already and NLA.

additional note: i remember reading some guy said his S85 DCT Swap into a E46M3 was around 100K all in with car/parts/labor included. i wouldn't be surprised if the labor was almost half the cost of the build.

Which is this car..

and amazingly.. they used a E9X MPE V2 rear section lol.

[amg6975]

Originally Posted by kolosy

i think it's theoretically possible but practically difficult. again same thread, there were guys going down that path that got stuck. i know nothing of their qualifications and doesn't mean someone else can't, but i just know the outcome.

If there was a more simple mechanical solution I'd give it go. I just don't have the time to figure out all the mechanical issues that go along with the swap. Electronics are my fotre.

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

the issue is that its not just the DME, but the CAN Busses as well. You'd need them to communicate.

Awron has made a can gateway, but that is expensive already and NLA.

Yeah, the CAN buses in the E60 and E90 use the same basic structure (PT6) but there are probably some differences in what messages are broadcast. The DCT uses data from all over the car so I think it would be easier to integrate an S85 into a DCT car than put a DCT into an S85 car.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by amg6975

If there was a more simple mechanical solution I'd give it go. I just don't have the time to figure out all the mechanical issues that go along with the swap. Electronics are my fotre.



Yeah, the CAN buses in the E60 and E90 use the same basic structure (PT6) but there are probably some differences in what messages are broadcast. The DCT uses data from all over the car so I think it would be easier to integrate an S85 into a DCT car than put a DCT into an S85 car.

yes that is correct for sure into our chassis would be a lot easier... so something to tackle. S85 swaps are a lot more common these days as well.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by amg6975

If there was a more simple mechanical solution I'd give it go. I just don't have the time to figure out all the mechanical issues that go along with the swap. Electronics are my fotre.



Yeah, the CAN buses in the E60 and E90 use the same basic structure (PT6) but there are probably some differences in what messages are broadcast. The DCT uses data from all over the car so I think it would be easier to integrate an S85 into a DCT car than put a DCT into an S85 car.

yeah this is the thing i never fully understood. why can't you isolate the DCT (doing an E60 DCT swap), and put it on a fake CAN bus and feed it translated messages? I'm a relapsing software engineer, in my world that's exactly how I'd do it. emulate its environment and not deal with trying to shove it all together otherwise.

[amg6975]

It’s a lot. It uses multiple different formats of engine torque from the DME, uses various things from the cluster (for some reason,) Drivelogic settings from the DME, the IMU data from the DSC sensor under the seat, uses all four individual wheel speeds, all four individual brake pressures, etc etc.

The DCT is the single most complicated thing in an E90, by a long ways. I’m not sure if the E60 platform has all of those things available on the PT-CAN because it never had a reason to. It wouldn’t surprise me if it did but also wouldn’t surprise me if it didn’t.

Spoofing everything necessary for the DCT to be happy would be an immense amount of work.

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by amg6975

I have heard that's entirely possible to run the S85 with the MSS60 which already has tables and stuff for the DCT integration.

If that's true you could likely get an S85 running in an E9x with all OEM electronics.

you are going to modify the dme to work? jim colley went down this road, took peoples money and was not able to make it work as far as the public knows. anyways, smg works for the e60 m5 im not sure why so many people have desired to put a dct onto the s85 other than for, smoother shifts? I work on the s85 cars frequently and the smg systems more frequently but IMO nothing shifts with the ferocity of smg in s6. the thing literally slams every shift.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by amrazM

you are going to modify the dme to work? jim colley went down this road, took peoples money and was not able to make it work as far as the public knows. anyways, smg works for the e60 m5 im not sure why so many people have desired to put a dct onto the s85 other than for, smoother shifts? I work on the s85 cars frequently and the smg systems more frequently but IMO nothing shifts with the ferocity of smg in s6. the thing literally slams every shift.

I believe your response above answers your own question. SMG III’s issue is its reliability issues which you alluded to by saying “…s85 cars frequently and the SMG systems more frequently”. It doesn’t matter if the SMG III system shifts with the most ferocity if it’s not working properly. DCTs have been extremely reliable even on high mileage cars. I had SMG II with a 4.10 FD clutch-type diff and lightweight flywheel in my e46 M3 and its performance was ~90% of the e9x M3 DCT (owned both at the same time and I’m running a 3.62 DCT diff) and there were a couple of things I actually liked better but its issues were reliability and overheating on track. DCTs have overheating issues on track but a do88 cooler and a Slon deep DCT oil pan addresses the issue. No easy fix for the SMG (at least not when I owned the SMG).

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I believe your response above answers your own question. SMG III’s issue is its reliability issues which you alluded to by saying “…s85 cars frequently and the SMG systems more frequently”. It doesn’t matter if the SMG III system shifts with the most ferocity if it’s not working properly. DCTs have been extremely reliable even on high mileage cars. I had SMG II with a 4.10 FD clutch-type diff and lightweight flywheel in my e46 M3 and its performance was ~90% of the e9x M3 DCT (owned both at the same time and I’m running a 3.62 DCT diff) and there were a couple of things I actually liked better but its issues were reliability and overheating on track. DCTs have overheating issues on track but a do88 cooler and a Slon deep DCT oil pan addresses the issue. No easy fix for the SMG (at least not when I owned the SMG).

this. i had an e60 m5 for a while, and while it's fun in S6, you only really get to use that on track. outside of that it's borderline undriveable. it's just slow in manual mode, and stupid in auto. i spent ~$8K manual swapping the thing as a result.

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I believe your response above answers your own question. SMG III’s issue is its reliability issues which you alluded to by saying “…s85 cars frequently and the SMG systems more frequently”. It doesn’t matter if the SMG III system shifts with the most ferocity if it’s not working properly. DCTs have been extremely reliable even on high mileage cars. I had SMG II with a 4.10 FD clutch-type diff and lightweight flywheel in my e46 M3 and its performance was ~90% of the e9x M3 DCT (owned both at the same time and I’m running a 3.62 DCT diff) and there were a couple of things I actually liked better but its issues were reliability and overheating on track. DCTs have overheating issues on track but a do88 cooler and a Slon deep DCT oil pan addresses the issue. No easy fix for the SMG (at least not when I owned the SMG).

SMG more frequently as in they are getting to the age where pumps motor repairs and electric pump repairs are more frequent. if your experience with SMG is limited to an e46 m3 then we are not on the same page here.

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by kolosy

this. i had an e60 m5 for a while, and while it's fun in S6, you only really get to use that on track. outside of that it's borderline undriveable. it's just slow in manual mode, and stupid in auto. i spent ~$8K manual swapping the thing as a result.

not looking to make this into a debate but if youre expecting an SMG to drive like an automatic youre going to be disappointed. its a manual transmission at the end of the day which can shift consistently faster than a manual.