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      11-13-2019, 10:22 AM   #1
ChiBimmer
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Camaro

This is third thread I've posted this week in this forum and I don't even own an M3. The feedback from you all has been great so I thought I'd do another. There's a pretty good V8 manual coupe on the market and prices are close to the E9x. A Camaro SS can be had for a little over $25k. An SS 1LE (same drivetrain but with upgraded brakes, cooling, handling, bigger wheels) is dipping into the low $30s. My impressions after a couple drives:
-The inputs (steering, shifter, pedals) are excellent. I knew the performance numbers would be impressive but good it felt surprised me. I expected it to feel more like the Mustangs I've rented.
-There is torque everywhere all over the rev range. It's not a screamer but it pulls all the way to 7k. It's geared long though so opportunities to wind it out on the street won't be many. Horsepower figures (455) tell only part of the start about this engine. The dominant feeling is the 455 lbs of torque.
-There's a lot of grip. For a test drive I was somewhat aggressive. The rear end does not play-at least it won't for me on the busy suburban streets I drive. On the roads I drive this is a 5/10 car not because it won't feel good but because the limits are so high. (A base SS is as fast straight or around a track as an F80 M4).
-To underscore the massive fail that is BMW's turbo 6, the Camaro gets just 1 mpg less. BMW used to make some of the best NA engines in the world. Pity.
-Lotsa good cabin tech. With the 2SS package it gets heated/ventilated seats, heads up display, blind spot monitoring (needed for this car, more on this in a moment), and an okay not great Bose stereo. There's a backup camera and and CarPlay—ordinary or even mandated stuff nowadays.
-Heads up display comes with the 2SS package or standard on the 1LE. After using this I wonder why this isn't on every performance car. There are a few displays to choose from. I would use the one with speed and tach. It shows g-forces too which is fun but maybe not so useful. It does function as a way to measure the circumference of one's gonads, figuratively.
-Most of the things you regularly touch like the steering wheel and shifter feel okay. Things like headliners and the dashboard are the cheapest GM cost-cutting crap you can imagine.
-It's sounds the business.
-Visibility is poor. Only my wife's old first gen Mini Cooper convertible with its top up was worse. It wasn't as bad as I expected but it's a problem. It seems not great for city driving. One had better learn to trust one's mirrors and even then I'd want the 2SS with the blind spot monitoring. I think I could deal but I think it's totally reasonable that the visibility makes the Camaro a non-starter for some. That's a pity because it does so much right.
-It defies physics. With the 1LE it turns laps faster than super cars with more power and less weight. It also manages to have the same footprint as a Cayenne AND to have a smaller back seat than a Mini Cooper. How is that possible? It's built on the same platform as the ATS which can be had in a sedan.
-It's big. Much bigger than an E90 in both length and width but with a smaller back seat than an E46. Access to the rear is obviously much better in the E90 which will carry a fifth passenger besides. Most reviewers don't mention how small the back is which is an oversight since Chevy made a good two seater with this drivetrain.
-the sheer bigness and lack of visibility would be the biggest hurdle for me. I drive my wife's Cayenne without a problem but I don't drive it spiritedly as I would a Camaro. I'm not sure I know where the corners of the Camaro are and worry about being in my lane or hitting a curb.

Anyway, I'm really curious what this forum's thoughts are one the 6th gen Camaro.
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      11-13-2019, 10:36 AM   #2
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What are you fishing for here? Have you even driven or let alone sat in a M car? Why don’t you go buy the Camarillo then...
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      11-13-2019, 10:52 AM   #3
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My man, check the "Vs." Section and find a plethora of threads on this...

Additionally, what's the point of this?
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      11-13-2019, 10:57 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerRookie View Post
My man, check the "Vs." Section and find a plethora of threads on this...

Additionally, what's the point of this?
Hmm...now thats a good question!
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      11-13-2019, 11:35 AM   #5
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hahaha I never understand that why are you here in this forum if you dont have a bmw and asking chevy question lmao
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      11-13-2019, 12:06 PM   #6
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thoughts

-Giant car with tiny interior
-Some people think it's a better track car because it already comes with more track worthy suspension and 305 tires. Whoever does coilovers and wheels on a E9X ends up faster. An F8X is in an entirely different ballpark
-Even track prepped (nothing crazy) E36s can take one out at the track
-Heavy
-Horrible visibility to outside the car. This is a big deal at the track
-I'm a big fan of NA engines, however, if you make one in a heavy car you don't end up with a fast vehicle

The turbo 6 may be a 'massive fail' in your opinion. I dislike turbo engines strongly, but a F8X will pull car lengths on a SS 1LE like if the 1LE were stopped. The difference is epically massive.
Also, the largest factor in mpg is gearing. American cars sometimes get pretty good highway mpg in their sport cars due to stupidly long gearing. I will gladly take an engine geared to realistic use cases like the E9X or F8X that has worse mpg than a car that requires 2 shifts while driving highway speeds.



If you like it... please go ahead and get one. We live in a free country.
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      11-13-2019, 02:02 PM   #7
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Damn... I thought I was on M3post. Guess it’s changed over! Lol
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      11-13-2019, 02:08 PM   #8
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ChiBimmer, one thing I don't want is for you to think we're a bunch of d-bags here on M3Post because we're really not. Some of us have just been around here for years and grow tired of the old or even obvious (to us) questions.

These questions would have been perfect for the VS Section, but not here. If you're still pondering whether the E9X is the right choice, pose your post in a more conversational manner and actually ask for input.

It's a big decision. In my opinion, you should use the forums for information and opinion, but use it wisely.
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      11-13-2019, 03:01 PM   #9
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Most of this would be answered by simply test driving the cars you are interested in purchasing.
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      11-13-2019, 03:22 PM   #10
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OP has test driven several e9x m3s
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      11-13-2019, 03:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive View Post
What are you fishing for here? Have you even driven or let alone say in a M car? Why don't you go buy the Camarillo then...
Camarillo. Sick burn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nekbreaker View Post
hahaha I never understand that why are you here in this forum if you dont have a bmw and asking chevy question lmao
You're wondering why I'm here is a good flex

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
thoughts

-Giant car with tiny interior
-Some people think it's a better track car because it already comes with more track worthy suspension and 305 tires. Whoever does coilovers and wheels on a E9X ends up faster. An F8X is in an entirely different ballpark
-Even track prepped (nothing crazy) E36s can take one out at the track
-Heavy
-Horrible visibility to outside the car. This is a big deal at the track
-I'm a big fan of NA engines, however, if you make one in a heavy car you don't end up with a fast vehicle

The turbo 6 may be a 'massive fail' in your opinion. I dislike turbo engines strongly, but a F8X will pull car lengths on a SS 1LE like if the 1LE were stopped. The difference is epically massive.
Also, the largest factor in mpg is gearing. American cars sometimes get pretty good highway mpg in their sport cars due to stupidly long gearing. I will gladly take an engine geared to realistic use cases like the E9X or F8X that has worse mpg than a car that requires 2 shifts while driving highway speeds.



If you like it... please go ahead and get one. We live in a free country.
I'm not looking for a track vehicle though I appreciate the experience share. I did mention lap times as aside about the general capability nothing more.

I'm not looking for a stoplight drag racer either. (Not putting down anyone who has that criteria.) The Chevy does have long gears which I mentioned. Motortrend said they tested an SS vs the M4 in over 50 drag races. The best times for each car were just a tenth of second apart with the advantage to Chevy in both the 0-60 and quarter mile though they said it also won like 90% of the time. It's fascinating that you got "epically massive" different results in your testing.

The city mpg mileage figures as well as highway are within 1 mpg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerRookie View Post
ChiBimmer, one thing I don't want is for you to think we're a bunch of d-bags here on M3Post because we're really not. Some of us have just been around here for years and grow tired of the old or even obvious (to us) questions.

These questions would have been perfect for the VS Section, but not here. If you're still pondering whether the E9X is the right choice, pose your post in a more conversational manner and actually ask for input.

It's a big decision. In my opinion, you should use the forums for information and opinion, but use it wisely.
I wouldn't characterize an entire forum based on a few people. I take your post as a recognition that the tone of replies here was different to my previous posts. I suspect the tone was different than if we were meeting face to face but hiding behind keyboards makes some people toxic.

If I put a post in the wrong sub forum I'm sorry. I don't get why some got so angry about it
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      11-13-2019, 04:35 PM   #12
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Are you planning to hold onto the car? Are you at a point in life where you want something kind of special enjoy, hold onto for years and enjoy it in 10, 15, 20 years still?

If so... go drive an M3 with 90,000 miles on it. Then go drive a Camaro with 90,000 miles on it. Then make your decision.

In fact, go drive an M3 with 200,000 and a Camaro with 75,000 miles. Bet the Camaro feels like a used Chevrolet.

Also- Sheer speed is now a commodity. The Tesla is blazing fast and it's basically an appliance. There are 5 in the parking garage parked in the same row as me right now, all the same color, and they'll dust all of our cars with your grandma behind the wheel. No matter which car you buy, you'll get used to how quick it is pretty fast.

You can chase the purple dragon, or you can buy something special and timeless with staying power that you'll still enjoy in a decade.

Just a thought.
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      11-13-2019, 05:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiBimmer View Post
I'm not looking for a stoplight drag racer either. (Not putting down anyone who has that criteria.) The Chevy does have long gears which I mentioned. Motortrend said they tested an SS vs the M4 in over 50 drag races. The best times for each car were just a tenth of second apart with the advantage to Chevy in both the 0-60 and quarter mile though they said it also won like 90% of the time. It's fascinating that you got "epically massive" different results in your testing.
You can read it yourself

When road test editor Kyle Kinard and I try a couple of “roll races” on Thermal’s back straight, the muscle-car BMW smokes the fair-and-balanced Chevy every time.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...camaro-ss-1le/


M2c is slower than the M4 in every way. Maybe you're comparing a manual M4 vs a manual ss1le?


I don't test anything against a Camaro SS 1LE. If I ever find one at the track I feel no pleasure passing them, I consider Camaros, Mustang, Vettes, etc to be 'allies' in the great track day wars
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      11-13-2019, 06:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjm41 View Post
Are you planning to hold onto the car? Are you at a point in life where you want something kind of special enjoy, hold onto for years and enjoy it in 10, 15, 20 years still?

If so... go drive an M3 with 90,000 miles on it. Then go drive a Camaro with 90,000 miles on it. Then make your decision.

In fact, go drive an M3 with 200,000 and a Camaro with 75,000 miles. Bet the Camaro feels like a used Chevrolet.

Also- Sheer speed is now a commodity. The Tesla is blazing fast and it's basically an appliance. There are 5 in the parking garage parked in the same row as me right now, all the same color, and they'll dust all of our cars with your grandma behind the wheel. No matter which car you buy, you'll get used to how quick it is pretty fast.

You can chase the purple dragon, or you can buy something special and timeless with staying power that you'll still enjoy in a decade.

Just a thought.
You make some great points.

I'm looking for a car with backseats to complement my roadster. I have teenage kids. I'll probably own my next car for 2 to 4 years. I already have one car that's in the never sell category but maybe I'll love this next car too. I'm a bmw fan though I like other brands too. I'm thinking E46 M3, E90 M3, or Camaro SS. They're all great and I can make a case for each of them.

I did another post comparing E90 M3 vs E46. The build quality of the E90 is impressive. I've been E90s from 50k to 100k miles and they are all in good shape. The Camaros were about 20k and 40k. They were good too. I assume they won't hold up as well as E90s. There is obviously a lot of cost cutting there. The one thing is that the comparison isn't really between cars of the same miles. The oldest 6th gen SS is from 2016. The oldest 1LE is 2017. For my purposes the build quality of the Chevy for my length of ownership is acceptable. That said E90 wins hands down for quality of materials and probably durability.

I agree 100% on speed for the sake of speed. I had a 135i that I modified because I thought that's what a sports car was. I got bored of it in a couple years. That said I do want a car that's pretty fast but it has to handle well, have an NA engine and manual.

A couple people here got upset that I asked their opinion about a Camaro. I love the E90 M3 and I thought the owners would have some interesting opinions. Thanks for sharing yours!
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      11-13-2019, 06:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiBimmer View Post
I'm not looking for a stoplight drag racer either. (Not putting down anyone who has that criteria.) The Chevy does have long gears which I mentioned. Motortrend said they tested an SS vs the M4 in over 50 drag races. The best times for each car were just a tenth of second apart with the advantage to Chevy in both the 0-60 and quarter mile though they said it also won like 90% of the time. It's fascinating that you got "epically massive" different results in your testing.
You can read it yourself

When road test editor Kyle Kinard and I try a couple of "roll races" on Thermal's back straight, the muscle-car BMW smokes the fair-and-balanced Chevy every time.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...camaro-ss-1le/


M2c is slower than the M4 in every way. Maybe you're comparing a manual M4 vs a manual ss1le?


I don't test anything against a Camaro SS 1LE. If I ever find one at the track I feel no pleasure passing them, I consider Camaros, Mustang, Vettes, etc to be 'allies' in the great track day wars
I was referring to Motortrend's head to head of Camaro SS vs M4. I can't remember if the M4 was manual or dct. The M4 lost the straight line races slightly and was like .2 second faster around Willow Springs. Im not in the market for turbo M. I can't afford it and would take an E46 and E90 over one. I only brought up the M4 to say, the Chevy is fast and not just in a straight line.

I've seen Baruth's article. He's fantastic. I was shocked when he said the Camaro felt like an E36 M3. This was an article that made me say I've got to drop my prejudices and drive the Camaro. I think he's probably right that the Chevy's problem is the visibility and that it's just so damn big.

I'll stand by my statement that the turbo 6 is a fail while acknowledging that it has some serious torque. I had a tuned 135i and these engines are two generations ahead of my old N54. They may be faster than the LT1 from some speeds but overall the cars are about equally fast. The point is that if BMW are going to make the huge sacrifices that come with turbocharging in responsiveness and lose so much connection between car and driver it should compensate with a whole lot more power or better fuel economy. I know that I'd rather the LT1 to the S55. I'll take the S65 and S54 over the turbos too.
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      11-13-2019, 08:00 PM   #16
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You mentioned throwing kids in the back seat. Yet you noted that the Camarillo realistically has none. It would seem that an E90 M3 would be a better fit. I have two tweens that ride fairly comfortably in the back of mine.

I would have to admit to admiring the sound of some SS Camaros that likely had aftermarket exhausts. You will likely find there are many options for after market stuff for the Chevy.

Other things to consider/compare as you mentioned driving in the winter are winter wheel set ups for both vehicles and costs of tires as generally the wider the tire the more $$ to replace.

Also was the steering response more what you were looking for as that seemed to be your main complaint on the E90 M3?
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      11-13-2019, 08:52 PM   #17
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If you want a car to carry 3 or 4 comfortably and aren’t looking for a track vehicle, what about a used M5, CTS-V, ATS-V, E63 AMG Bi Turbo, Chevrolet SS?

E90M3 is good and I have enjoyed mine for 9 years but would buy something newer if I was shopping now. Maybe an F80 M3 or E63 AMG or M5. With big power, I would like AWD in a daily driver so I can put the power down more of the time.

If you just want the E90M3 to handle better, that is easy enough. Subframe bushings, shocks and springs or coil overs, and wider wheels and tires. I run 18x9.5/10.5 with 265/35 and 295/35/18. Still not as much rubber as the Camaro but more than stock.
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      11-13-2019, 11:13 PM   #18
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Im sure you'll get biased opinions here as well as on a Camaro forum and for good reason. I think only you can decide whats best for yourself. I bought my E90 a year back and could have spent 50k or more on a car but decided that for the price and what I was after, it was the ideal car. I once owned owned a C6Z06 but it just wasn't for me although it posted better numbers than the cars I currently own. But sadly, most performance American cars don't do it for me. I think you should drive the M3 and Camaro back to back on the same day and decide whats best for you and not let the M3 or Camaro forum influence your decision. Good luck.
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      11-13-2019, 11:17 PM   #19
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Just get a Camarillo bro.
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      11-14-2019, 08:36 AM   #20
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Every time you sit in a Camaro, you will always wonder what the 'ultimate driving machine' is like to own and drive.

E92 M3 offers sensation that no other car or vehicle can offer. Gradually increasing the car's velocity corner by corner, sensing the irony of lateral gravitational force squeezing you yet simultaneously setting you free, there comes an eventual realization of the symmetry between you and your car.
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      11-14-2019, 09:02 AM   #21
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I think the most likely scenario that I will ever drive a Camaro involves a situation where I am provided one by Hertz rent-a-car at random.
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      11-14-2019, 09:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Every time you sit in a Camaro, you will always wonder what the 'ultimate driving machine' is like to own and drive.

E92 M3 offers sensation that no other car or vehicle can offer. Gradually increasing the car's velocity corner by corner, sensing the irony of lateral gravitational force squeezing you yet simultaneously setting you free, there comes an eventual realization of the symmetry between you and your car.
Lol. I've driven both. I'm likely to get an E90 m3. There's a lot to love but it may just come down to practically which the E90 has over the Camaro. I don't know about ultimate driving whatever. It's kinda numb which is the direction of every three series since the first one. I'm not here to take any enjoyment from your car. Enjoy it.
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