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      08-01-2011, 11:17 PM   #111
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      08-02-2011, 08:35 AM   #112
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      08-02-2011, 08:41 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
It wasn't just the fact that he forced di Resta off the track. Spinning your car around in the middle of a narrow track directly INTO opposing traffic is incredibly dangerous. If di Resta hadn't been alert at that point, it could have been a really nasty accident.

If you see other incidents where people spin, they always wait for a break in opposing traffic before getting back on the track/spinning back around.
Yupp, this.

In racing, once you spin you lose your "claim" to the track. Also you can not impede the progress of other cars, that's the basic rule. It's not just an F1 thing, that a racing thing. Once you have spun, you need to get back going, but only when it is safe to do so. Hammy didn't wait until it was safe.

If he had waited until the 4 cars that came through had passed, then performed the spin, he would have been fine. But, he was impatient.
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      08-02-2011, 01:31 PM   #114
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there seems to be so much kumbaya @ mclaren between the two drivers i wished RBR had that sometimes....
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      08-02-2011, 02:14 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Yupp, this.

In racing, once you spin you lose your "claim" to the track. Also you can not impede the progress of other cars, that's the basic rule. It's not just an F1 thing, that a racing thing. Once you have spun, you need to get back going, but only when it is safe to do so. Hammy didn't wait until it was safe.

If he had waited until the 4 cars that came through had passed, then performed the spin, he would have been fine. But, he was impatient.
While I'm sure there are some poeple that may have liked for him to just sit in the middle of the track and wait to get plowed into. I don't think even they could argue that option is safe.

And before you mention that he could have just driven straight off the track to get out of the way, first remember that off the track was very wet and may have resulted in a DNF since he was facing the wrong way. Secondly, Button came up onto him on the outside, opposite of di Resta, so had Hamilton stayed put or closed the outside to Button, it is possible that Button would have been hindered either way. (That is by either having to follow di Resta as a back marker through the scene or go off the track on the outside, in which Hamilton still might have recieved a penalty for it.)
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      08-02-2011, 02:42 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
While I'm sure there are some poeple that may have liked for him to just sit in the middle of the track and wait to get plowed into. I don't think even they could argue that option is safe.

And before you mention that he could have just driven straight off the track to get out of the way, first remember that off the track was very wet and may have resulted in a DNF since he was facing the wrong way. Secondly, Button came up onto him on the outside, opposite of di Resta, so had Hamilton stayed put or closed the outside to Button, it is possible that Button would have been hindered either way. (That is by either having to follow di Resta as a back marker through the scene or go off the track on the outside, in which Hamilton still might have recieved a penalty for it.)
Question for you:

Have you ever done a track day or been on a race track ?
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      08-02-2011, 03:06 PM   #117
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Maybe Hamilton's move wasn't ideal, but possibly one of the better options he could choose. And I don't think if he drove straight ahead (crossing a racing line) is not too ideal given the amount of traffic coming towards him.

Plus I think in all fairness, he executed alright (not perfect). Its all "possible" worse might happen if he just sit still, or di Resta might still going off to dodge him. Who knows. In the heat of the moment, where he just made a self-inflict mistake and just missed collide with his teammate. I think he did alright, I might've done the same if I were in his shoes.
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      08-02-2011, 03:26 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Question for you:

Have you ever done a track day or been on a race track ?
No, I haven't. Though I am over-due. (Anyone know a decent helmet shop that sells Arai SA2010 helmets in Texas?)

However, I understand that from di Resta's perspective watching Hamilton spin his car like that would cause concern. I am not advocating the move, I'm simply saying that his options were limited.

And I'll also say, that I doubt any of us have raced a car in anger with the degree of involvement and pressure that the F1 guys do. Even after I have done one, ten, even sixty track-days I don't think I would begin to elude that I know what it is like for them.
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      08-02-2011, 03:34 PM   #119
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Btw, I'd be down for a M3Post track day at the CotA post 2012.
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      08-02-2011, 03:37 PM   #120
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Btw, I'd be down for a M3Post track day at the CotA post 2012.
YES!! I would drive all the way to Texas for that, haha.
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      08-02-2011, 05:05 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
No, I haven't. Though I am over-due. (Anyone know a decent helmet shop that sells Arai SA2010 helmets in Texas?)

However, I understand that from di Resta's perspective watching Hamilton spin his car like that would cause concern. I am not advocating the move, I'm simply saying that his options were limited.

And I'll also say, that I doubt any of us have raced a car in anger with the degree of involvement and pressure that the F1 guys do. Even after I have done one, ten, even sixty track-days I don't think I would begin to elude that I know what it is like for them.
The reason I ask is because the basic track rule that shouldn't be broken is, if you spin, wait 'til the other cars come by before you try and rejoin. It's not just an F1 rule, it's the same for pretty much every series and track event out there.
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      08-02-2011, 07:10 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Question for you:

Have you ever done a track day or been on a race track ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
The reason I ask is because the basic track rule that shouldn't be broken is, if you spin, wait 'til the other cars come by before you try and rejoin. It's not just an F1 rule, it's the same for pretty much every series and track event out there.
Exactly....I argree with you 100%...this is a penalty based on safety and had nothing to do with who was in position, or a back-marker, etc. When you spin you have to WAIT until it is safe to rejoin...doesn't matter if you are in first, last or the fastest or slowest car on the circuit. And YES sometimes the safest option means sitting still in the middle of the track while the others get by safely before you rejoin the fray. In the situation LH was in, staying still was the safest option. He made an unsafe maneuver so he was penalized.

During a BMWCCA race at Willow Springs, I spun my e46 M3 exiting turn 9. This left me in the middle of the track facing the opposite direction as several other cars exited the turn leading to the front straight. It was scary but I held tight, realizing my fellow competitors would see me and avoid me. As soon as they got around me, I spun the car around and rejoined the fray. Afterwards, many of my fellow racers came to me to thank me for handling that situation in such a calm and smart manner.
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      08-02-2011, 10:01 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Speaking of Lewis, I applaud him yesterday for the post race interview. He had no anger or frustration at all (regardless if he hidden his emotion or not), not pointing fingers or blaming others for his unfortunate events. Great attitude yesterday all around!
he gets told what to say. that was old (so, when he was young) Lewis, not out-of-control-impulsive Lewis from 2011 (his true-self).

I understand the different points of view; but I still agree with xbook et al, he was impatient, because in the split second after the spin, he realised that he was screwed, so he spun it back, and he got punished, which was fair. end of story... if he had waited like he should've, he would've been ROYALLY screwed, but hey, nobody told him to spin... some say if he had gone off course it would've possibly resulted in a DNF. well, you can't put the rest at risk just cause you spun and don't want to abandon, can you?
whether he actually saw Di Resta and recognised him or whatever is neither here nor there, because running in 4th or whatever position he was in, he KNEW there were cars coming and how narrow the track is (i.e. he knew he was screwed). he may have not been lying about not having seen him, but it's a BS excuse IMO... by the way, Di Resta was NOT a backmarker at the time; he ran in the top 10 all weekend.
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      08-02-2011, 10:35 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by raisemyrent View Post
he gets told what to say. that was old (so, when he was young) Lewis, not out-of-control-impulsive Lewis from 2011 (his true-self).

I understand the different points of view; but I still agree with xbook et al, he was impatient, because in the split second after the spin, he realised that he was screwed, so he spun it back, and he got punished, which was fair. end of story... if he had waited like he should've, he would've been ROYALLY screwed, but hey, nobody told him to spin... some say if he had gone off course it would've possibly resulted in a DNF. well, you can't put the rest at risk just cause you spun and don't want to abandon, can you?
whether he actually saw Di Resta and recognised him or whatever is neither here nor there, because running in 4th or whatever position he was in, he KNEW there were cars coming and how narrow the track is (i.e. he knew he was screwed). he may have not been lying about not having seen him, but it's a BS excuse IMO... by the way, Di Resta was NOT a backmarker at the time; he ran in the top 10 all weekend.
still better than sour grape webber...
at least his body language was happier than Webber when Seb won....unless he's a great actor....just saying...
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      08-03-2011, 02:29 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
I'm simply saying that his options were limited.
His option was limited to staying put and safely waiting for the group to pass. That's it. Theres no question LH got exactly what he deserved.
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      08-03-2011, 06:32 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
The reason I ask is because the basic track rule that shouldn't be broken is, if you spin, wait 'til the other cars come by before you try and rejoin. It's not just an F1 rule, it's the same for pretty much every series and track event out there.
LOL @ comparing courtesy at a DE event to race rules.

It is NOT a rule that you WAIT for other cars to pass before the track is clear to get back on. That is true when you're doing a DE event, but that's because safety is an absolute top priority.

Spinning to right yourself on track in traffic is usually fine off the racing line, f1 drivers know what they are doing and can control their car and put it where they want it, it's not like they are you and might end up 3 car lengths from where they were trying to go.



Don't compare DE events to f1, please. It's ridiculous.
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      08-03-2011, 08:39 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
LOL @ comparing courtesy at a DE event to race rules.

It is NOT a rule that you WAIT for other cars to pass before the track is clear to get back on. That is true when you're doing a DE event, but that's because safety is an absolute top priority.

Spinning to right yourself on track in traffic is usually fine off the racing line, f1 drivers know what they are doing and can control their car and put it where they want it, it's not like they are you and might end up 3 car lengths from where they were trying to go.



Don't compare DE events to f1, please. It's ridiculous.
It just common sense to wait for others to pass before you make the move.
Who said you're in F1, then you can recover whenever you want and cause other drivers to avoid you. Who the hell you think you are.

Backmarkers or not, they have the right to use the racing line like any other. Once LH spun off, his right to move back to racing line was removed until the track to clear. Forcing other drivers or perform a move that cause a driver off the track is called "impeding" other drivers. And he got slapped with a "drive thru".
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      08-03-2011, 08:54 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
It just common sense to wait for others to pass before you make the move.
Who said you're in F1, then you can recover whenever you want and cause other drivers to avoid you. Who the hell you think you are.

Backmarkers or not, they have the right to use the racing line like any other. Once LH spun off, his right to move back to racing line was removed until the track to clear. Forcing other drivers or perform a move that cause a driver off the track is called "impeding" other drivers. And he got slapped with a "drive thru".
Re read my post, I was not referencing hamiltons spin at all, just correcting xbooks ridiculous statement that in racing if you spin or have an off you have to wait for everyone to go by and assuming a Fing f1 race is like a amateur drivers education event, it's just stupid.

And you can impede drivers rejoining the track all you damn well please, just because you go off track doesn't mean you're no longer racing, you just cant crash into them and force them off track.

and I still don't think di rossa HAD to go off track, there was still a car width in the racing line, he just flinched.
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      08-03-2011, 10:12 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
Re read my post, I was not referencing hamiltons spin at all, just correcting xbooks ridiculous statement that in racing if you spin or have an off you have to wait for everyone to go by and assuming a Fing f1 race is like a amateur drivers education event, it's just stupid.

And you can impede drivers rejoining the track all you damn well please, just because you go off track doesn't mean you're no longer racing, you just cant crash into them and force them off track.

and I still don't think di rossa HAD to go off track, there was still a car width in the racing line, he just flinched.
How are you still racing when you're not even facing the right direction?
Anyways, I respectfully disagree.

Quote:
20.2 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position, deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
Quote:
16.1 - forced a driver off the track
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      08-03-2011, 12:13 PM   #130
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Bolding text and ignoring what directly follows it makes you a moron.

I'll give you a for instance, you go off track, and come back on in front of a driver who caught up with you in the meantime, you are going slower then them and they have to slow not to run into you. According to xbook you can't do this, but it's perfectly legal and is done all the time.

Additionally, had hamilton been farther off the racing line and spun around while traffic was going past he would also have been perfectly fine.

So, back to the original point you are ignoring, you don't just have to sit there till traffic passes, you just can't crash into them or run them off track.

Now quit being a moron and actually read.
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      08-03-2011, 12:20 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
Re read my post, I was not referencing hamiltons spin at all, just correcting xbooks ridiculous statement that in racing if you spin or have an off you have to wait for everyone to go by and assuming a Fing f1 race is like a amateur drivers education event, it's just stupid.

And you can impede drivers rejoining the track all you damn well please, just because you go off track doesn't mean you're no longer racing, you just cant crash into them and force them off track.

and I still don't think di rossa HAD to go off track, there was still a car width in the racing line, he just flinched.
If you watch the video carefully, he pretty much spun right on to the racing line. Di resta's options were to either go over the wet rumble strips or dive onto the grass (both very dangerous)- he probably got spooked and hit the grass as a result.

Here's why this rule (or 'spirit of the sport') is in place

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      08-03-2011, 12:29 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
Bolding text and ignoring what directly follows it makes you a moron.

I'll give you a for instance, you go off track, and come back on in front of a driver who caught up with you in the meantime, you are going slower then them and they have to slow not to run into you. According to xbook you can't do this, but it's perfectly legal and is done all the time.

Additionally, had hamilton been farther off the racing line and spun around while traffic was going past he would also have been perfectly fine.

So, back to the original point you are ignoring, you don't just have to sit there till traffic passes, you just can't crash into them or run them off track.

Now quit being a moron and actually read.


King of argument by just calling people moron.

Anyways, the case you presented was not valid, you're gave an example a slow traffic going along the flow of the race track. Not facing the wrong direction. Let me remind you, Australian GP 2010, Fernando Alonso was facing the wrong direction, he waited the whole field to get pass.

You can say Paul Di Resta should've seen it coming and thread his car right next to Lewis's. It is apparent that Lewis Hamilton performed a move that Paul di Resta did not expect and spooked him to went off track to avoid.

You can race doesn't mean you have to drive like an ass.
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