American Racing Headers Results

[tdott]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I think the ARH system looks well made, but I would like to see more data on as to the gains on an n/a S65 than I have seen since these headers came out. I’d like to see that dynojet run, since the most common numbers for these cars are from Dynojets.

I hope you don't fall off that high horse, you seem pretty far up there....

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Totally. I want to see trap speed comparison now, whether at a road course since OP tracks his car, or 1/4+, would be very cool to see delta if he has data for his car, or just compare to other cars if not on the same day. The only dyno that really matters after all, is the track. We've got one user putting up some of the the highest NA trap speeds ever seen on this platform, and dipping into mid-11's with these headers on his car. Maybe they're a waste, but I tend to doubt it the more data comes in. He's also running E85 which is something most people haven't toyed with yet, but still, the real world is looking sorta promising

I keep meaning to go back over my last year GPS speeds at WGI vs this year (Pre/Post headers, similar temps). I KNOW my top speeds were higher, but I need to go back and check my corner exit speeds since a 15mph difference isn't much if I exited the corner 15mph faster (though aero means gaining 0, but at a higher speed still means a gain was had). WGI is the only place I have GPS data from, as I just started messing with data acquisition end of last year at the track. If I revisit Thunderbolt I can check that as well, but I am thinking Esses + Backstraight (with a definite mention of the speeds at the straight entrance) to braking zone as well as Front Straight entrance to braking Zone at WGI should be good points. I can tell you my high gps verified was 146.6mph and I enter the esses ~100mph.

I've never even seen a drag strip, so that one is kind of out the window.

I do plan on running at Pocono next month and rumor has it I might be allowed to do a top speed run. If so, a significantly higher than average gps verified top speed (even with my GT4 splitter attached) would also be useful data.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by BigBoosting

1. Show us the repeatable +30 hp gains from multiple NA cars please.

2. That sweet looking carbon plenum did come with data from the manufacture, though its stupid expensive. The first purchaser has also state he will be pursuing independent testing.

3. ARH refused for years to offer any real world testing.

4. +30hp gain from the headers even surpasses ARH's ridiculous claims as well as triples any other manufactures header/tune testing.

I don't see why a healthy dose of skepticism is unreasonable.

ARH claimed +40whp over stock exhaust with no tune. I'd say the numbers I'm seeing aren't too out of line being ~68-75 over what my car was stock assuming that a tune really does matter (which I personally believe and I'm pretty sure that tunes are considered important on Test Pipe cars so I don't know why they wouldn't be on header cars)

I agree on healthy skepticism.

Not to be too far off topic. Are we talking the Eventuri system? You should see our annual car budget and even I am having trouble justifying that. But to each his own. Some people really like showing off CF. Not one to judge other people's tastes or what they want to do with their money.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Totally. I want to see trap speed comparison now, whether at a road course since OP tracks his car, or 1/4+, would be very cool to see delta if he has data for his car, or just compare to other cars if not on the same day. The only dyno that really matters after all, is the track. We've got one user putting up some of the the highest NA trap speeds ever seen on this platform, and dipping into mid-11's with these headers on his car. Maybe they're a waste, but I tend to doubt it the more data comes in. He's also running E85 which is something most people haven't toyed with yet, but still, the real world is looking sorta promising

I also want to fiddle with E85 as our STIs basically require them. We don't have it at pumps here or any of the road courses I go to, so I need a viable flex option. I also think it'd help keep cyl temps lower as I'm pushing the bajesus out of this car on track for extensive times.

Hoping to continue doing additional testing on stuff as well

[Richbot]

the glen is a pretty damn good dyno. Speed gain between corners is helpful data, your corner speeds may be up like you said but you ought to be able to overlay traces and see if the slope is steeper now.

I know my 135hp on a cold day racecar is picking up 20mph from corner exit to brake zone at the end of the longest straight at my local track, and you can pretty much measure the ambient temperature by how many mph gain you've lost, in 95+ degree weather it's more like 17mph . So you could look at those deltas too and see where you can show some improvment, or lack of it.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by M.Hagen

OP - Thanks for the post and effort to gather and report on the data from your AHR experience. Don't worry about appealing to everyone. Skeptics will be skeptics, regardless of how much you accomodate.

Only on M3post will you get a 10 page circle-jerk about a carbon intake manifold with no backup data to support the +9hp claim. And in another thread, a bunch of uproar over what kind of dyno and controlled variables you should consider when attempting to validate a +30hp (or more) power-adder that has shown repeated results on multiple cars.

It's probably a waste of my time to answer you, but as you did reference the Karbonius thread I started...

Anyone has good reason to be skeptical of the claims ARH makes. They are completely out of this world and they have been made on both the S54 and S65 platforms.

One can choose to believe in unicorns and fairies, others remember years ago when Supersprint, clearly the #1 manufacturer of S54 headers, state that there was nothing to be had in the S65 platform for headers and that they wouldn't be releasing anything for it.
So yeah, it is pretty smart to doubt the word of a newcomer to BMW. This is a starting point.

ARH has a reputation, yes, on american cars that have headers designed by a 3 year old monkey.

Right off the bat, anyone should be skeptical.

Then they've had multiple threads which were unfortunately removed, where they first challenged anyone to a risk-free trial and I volunteered, but then they backed out once it was clear they wouldn't get to control the tuner or the dyno environment.



Now about the airbox you mention. Reading comprehension is a great skill that seems to be underutilized. I guess they don't teach this in school anymore. But lets bring in the opening quote from that thread in here:

The airbox underwent airflow studies and is larger capacity than the stock one which in theory should gain some power, however, I feel it is worth it regardless.

Do you understand the difference between ARH selling the headers because they sound really nice and them making false statements about the HP they produce?
The only reason ARH gets flak around here is most people object to blatant lies being posted on the forum and have a bullshit detector that more or less works. Others happily swallow all the BS they can find.

[M.Hagen]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Can you identify the multiple E9xM3 that have validated 30 rwhp gains from these headers?

Originally Posted by M.Hagen

...And in another thread, a bunch of uproar over what kind of dyno and controlled variables you should consider when attempting to validate a +30hp (or more)....

Originally Posted by BigBoosting

1. Show us the repeatable +30 hp gains from multiple NA cars please.

Show me the repeatable 9hp gains from carbon engine bling.

2. That sweet looking carbon plenum did come with data from the manufacture, though its stupid expensive. The first purchaser has also state he will be pursuing independent testing.

ARH provided their testing results at product launch, yet it received vastly different reaction. The irony when readying the initial ARH thread and the carbon-bling thread is not lost on me.

3. ARH refused for years to offer any real world testing.

They did. It was discredited because it was from ARH and not independent. Then when they offered to install the equipment at their cost, and pay for the dyno time, no one took the offer

4. +30hp gain from the headers even surpasses ARH's ridiculous claims as well as triples any other manufactures header/tune testing.

Your bias is difficult to miss

I don't see why a healthy dose of skepticism is unreasonable.

Skepticism and its application is a very reasonable thing to have, however this forum has a very interesting history (or lack of) applying that skepticism across manufacturers and other "parts" that come with manufacturer claims. ARH's threads completely get shit-up every time because others have failed trying the same thing in the past and now that there 'appears' to be a winner, it's discredited with haste.

The OP goes through the effort to settle the debate, and the same camp comes back in and invalidates his results because it was the "wrong" kind of dyno. The fact that there is a push to use a single Dynojet pull to "validate" the OP's results, when there was never a Dynojet baseline to begin with on the OP's setup is hysterical. The mental gymnastics on the anti-ARH bandwagon is unreal.

Other than a majority of the sponsor's flash tunes and maybe the K&N drop-in filter, how many of the "power-adder" products for the E9X have multiple controlled-condition Dynojet runs, from multiple independent sources? I'll concede there are likely a handful, but certainly the minority of products. The standards being requested in all the ARH threads never pop up on any of the other new-product threads. It is incredibly amusing the watch.

[M.Hagen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

words

You are confusing me pointing out the ironic difference in reaction within this community with some sort of bashing of the carbon airbox. FWIW - The carbon airbox is absolutely stunning. It is worth every dime on its looks alone.

I'll draw the parallels for you, and maybe you'll see why I'm pointing out the irony in all of this:
- Both products are uncommon in the aftermarket for E9X
- Both products have claims of power
- One product gets an unusually high level of skepticism after multiple users dyno with their setups, including their product launch thread getting locked multiple times.
- The other product gets multiple pages of lusting and praise

You can't explain that just because "others" failed to make power on previous attempts at header construction for the S65.

Yes, Nick had the online tact of a fire-ant. Yes, his primary products service the american muscle car community (maybe some bias is introduced because of this ). Since the product launch there are now multiple SC cars with before/after, and now a N/A car with before/after results, and the "not good enough" camp still continues to make noise.

[Richbot]

Well, I mean, to be fair, Karbonius is a German company and ARH is American, fanboys gonna fanboy

I just want to know if the stupid thing loses power or not so I can get my lexan hood ordered

Based on the results available from ARH users now I know I wouldn't waste any money on replacing a stock header with another stock one if I cracked one for some reason...and if the engine comes out for some reason, whooo boy better look both ways because here comes the "while you're in there" rationalization train choo choo $$$$. I bet they'd even do 300cell cats for me, custom-like. Because they're an actual real company that makes custom ish for people.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Well, I mean, to be fair, Karbonius is a German company and ARH is American, fanboys gonna fanboy

I just want to know if the stupid thing loses power or not so I can get my lexan hood ordered

Based on the results available from ARH users now I know I wouldn't waste any money on replacing a stock header with another stock one if I cracked one for some reason...and if the engine comes out for some reason, whooo boy better look both ways because here comes the "while you're in there" rationalization train choo choo $$$$. I bet they'd even do 300cell cats for me, custom-like. Because they're an actual real company that makes custom ish for people.

I have HFC and elbows to swap back and forth and a resonated system.

FWIW, I was told that if you do headers at the same time as bearings, the cost is cut ~1/2 on labor. I am low mileage, so I wasn't doing my bearings, but had a shop quote and they said it's less expensive to do both together. YMMV

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

I have HFC and elbows to swap back and forth and a resonated system.

FWIW, I was told that if you do headers at the same time as bearings, the cost is cut ~1/2 on labor. I am low mileage, so I wasn't doing my bearings, but had a shop quote and they said it's less expensive to do both together. YMMV

Yes, basically when the subframe is lowered you do the headers

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by tdott

I hope you don't fall off that high horse, you seem pretty far up there....

Not the least bit worried, but appreciate your concern.

[ilikebmxbikes]

I would love to see a more comparative SAE result on a dynojet.

I am also skeptical of this information as it seems a bit much from headers and tune alone for an NA s65 from what we have seen on similar platforms. These gains are above a stroker motor.

There is no reason to argue or get defensive in this thread. Many of us want information in the interest of benefiting the platform. OP is doing a great service by helping get this information out- regardless of result this is all valuable.

Will the headers add power? Likely yes. The real Question is only 'how much?' -

[tdott]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Many of us want information in the interest of benefiting the platform.

Seems more like demanding it at the full expense of the OP who had already provided more data than anyone else had prior.

Now if you were to offer to contribute to the expense of the additional dyno rather than just sitting back and demanding someone else do the work for you that would be start, since you claim it's for the benefit of the platform.

Originally Posted by M.Hagen

- One product gets an unusually high level of skepticism after multiple users dyno with their setups, including their product launch thread getting locked multiple times.

A carbon airbox produces an intoxicating intake sound, as proved on S14, S54 motors, many are willing to pay a pretty penny for that even if the gains are minimal. IMO you can't draw parallels between the two because of that.

Also much of the flack ARH got was because of their claims from a stock car producing +40hp, when a test pipe + tune has been proven many times to produce +30rwhp. When you look at it like that, that assumption was that the headers were only good for ~10+hp. I believe until now, there has never been a delta dyno comparison between test pipes vs ARH headers.

The main difference here is that this test includes a custom tune which together with the ARH seemed to produce bigger numbers than previously expected, hence further skepticism, but those with sound knowledge will believe the deltas. The fanbois bandwagoners seems to want dynojet results, all about peak numbers bro, I'm sure if they had their way, it would have to be on an EAS dyno too.

[ilikebmxbikes]

I was in a similar situation as OP as there were many members claiming some FBO s65 make more HP power than strokers.

I dyno'd my car twice on dynojets both times with stock m3's and I even dyno'd 5-6 FBO e9x m3's with different tune to put those peoples' notions to bed.

Good Information is good information. I agree some people's attitudes are a bit inappropriate but I think the demand for good information is reasonable.

But I will say OP's dyno chart does not match what I have seen in my experience and personally I would love to see more information NOT to prove anyone wrong or right but to compare his results more clearly to mine and those on the database.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I would love to see a more comparative SAE result on a dynojet.

I am also skeptical of this information as it seems a bit much from headers and tune alone for an NA s65 from what we have seen on similar platforms. These gains are above a stroker motor.

There is no reason to argue or get defensive in this thread. Many of us want information in the interest of benefiting the platform. OP is doing a great service by helping get this information out- regardless of result this is all valuable.

Will the headers add power? Likely yes. The real Question is only 'how much?' -

Very well put.

Originally Posted by tdott

Seems more like demanding it at the full expense of the OP who had already provided more data than anyone else had prior.

Now if you were to offer to contribute to the expense of the additional dyno rather than just sitting back and demanding someone else do the work for you that would be start, since you claim it's for the benefit of the platform.



A carbon airbox produces an intoxicating intake sound, as proved on S14, S54 motors, many are willing to pay a pretty penny for that even if the gains are minimal. IMO you can't draw parallels between the two because of that.

Also much of the flack ARH got was because of their claims from a stock car producing +40hp, when a test pipe + tune has been proven many times to produce +30rwhp. When you look at it like that, that assumption was that the headers were only good for ~10+hp. I believe until now, there has never been a delta dyno comparison between test pipes vs ARH headers.

The main difference here is that this test includes a custom tune which together with the ARH seemed to produce bigger numbers than previously expected, hence further skepticism, but those with sound knowledge will believe the deltas. The fanbois bandwagoners seems to want dynojet results, all about peak numbers bro, I'm sure if they had their way, it would have to be on an EAS dyno too.

When you're argument includes insults such as "the fanbois bandwagoners" and ridiculous statements like "all about peak numbers bro" you lose credibility.

Simply put, the deltas are just too large to be believable, and a dynojet data point would add additional information.

[SSJTrunks523]

Working on the Dynojet. Know someone who knows someone who is friends with a guy that owns a shop with one (if that isn't twisted enough haha) that I should be able to pay to run it.

Now it's just working it into my schedule.

I still don't think it is terribly useful, as there is no pre-dyno, only a post, but more data > less data.

I'm repeating myself, but I've said it for both directions. If my car puts down the highest NA S65 on record, there is no proof it was because of the headers and if it's a mid-range car, again no proof the headers didn't make power. I WILL be running a Dynojet pull. Just making my thoughts known on comparing two different cars peak hp pulls as a way of verifying whether a modification makes power. It just doesn't work that way. I'll also repeat that I wish someone said they wanted Dynojet numbers before because I would have worked harder at getting those pulls in at each step as well. In the last dumpster fire of a thread, I laid out what I was doing and it was accepted as fine. I even offered going full catless vs test pipes and that was claimed as not necessary.

Thank you to all who have thanked me. I'm happy to be part of the community and always pushing towards lap times =) If anything I produce is helpful, it's worth it.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by BigBoosting

When you're argument includes insults such as "the fanbois bandwagoners" and ridiculous statements like "all about peak numbers bro" you lose credibility.

The sarcasm eludes you.

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

I still don't think it is terribly useful, as there is no pre-dyno, only a post, but more data > less data.

I agree. Be prepared for them to start claiming that the dyno has no history or other baseline to judge. Then demand another....

[dparm]

Do you have a Dynapack dyno nearby? Should help reduce some of the variability with tires/wheels.

Regardless, awesome gains for a motor that's already high-strung.

[nycplumber]

Has anyone install the triple step headers? They're nearly double the price and I'm a little ignorant to the differences

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by nycplumber

Has anyone install the triple step headers? They're nearly double the price and I'm a little ignorant to the differences

Believe they are designed to ring the most out of a N/A motor, but not for S/C. Basically if you are racing and running NA that's supposed to be the type you would want. Most of our platform ends up going S/C at that point because the $/hp just gets ridiculous, but when you might win a trophy.....

I like being NA for road course work, so here I am

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by dparm

Do you have a Dynapack dyno nearby? Should help reduce some of the variability with tires/wheels.

Regardless, awesome gains for a motor that's already high-strung.

I can look around as well. I have run everything on the same set of wheels and tires. ZCP wheels with RE71Rs that I keep as my "rain tire" and street tire, though I trailer and have Pirelli wets en route to replace the wet side of that equation.