Question on Heel Toe

[Car54]

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

Actually, you need to do both at the same time. if you get all your braking done first, then why worry about working on your technique to make sure you keep brake pedal pressure constant.

I'd beg to differ on the clutch release. You obviously know more than I do though, so I won't argue anymore.

Good catch about getting braking done....I shouldn't have said done. It's just that many people have the tendency to go brakes and start trying to rev match right away. I teach to be patient and brake down to be closer to your cornering speed before ever lifting your foot from the dead pedal.

I don't know any pro racers...but I've never met any BMW CCA coach that blew off learning to heel toe. In fact, it's criteria for being a CCA instructor.

It was nice chatting with you about this.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Car54

Not if you get your braking done before trying to downshift...which you should be doing. Then the more you slow the car, the easier it will be to downshift, unless you're slowing it down to the top of 2nd gear...then it's a little tricky. Most turns are slowing into the middle of 3rd gear if a down shift is required.

As for releasing the clutch, if you can rev and time properly...you can side step the thing and it won't matter.

Fully agree

Edit: I guess I understood where you were going and I assumed you meant "get almost all your braking done before trying to downshift"...

[1MOREMOD]

if you trailbrake you cant get your braking done before the shift? I developed some trail braking on my own as i advanced even though i didnt know what it was called. seems logical for me when learning to intermingle throttle and steering inputs on exit, unwinding the wheel and applying throttle. seems much less natural for me to release the brake slowly as im turning in, because like most of us i was taught to get all my braking done in a straight line. it however isnt the fastest or best was to maximize your lap times or traction available.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

if you trailbrake you cant get your braking done before the shift? I developed some trail braking on my own as i advanced even though i didnt know what it was called. seems logical for me when learning to intermingle throttle and steering inputs on exit, unwinding the wheel and applying throttle. seems much less natural for me to release the brake slowly as im turning in, because like most of us i was taught to get all my braking done in a straight line. it however isnt the fastest or best was to maximize your lap times or traction available.

I agree, it is also how I see it. I will carry some braking past turn-in in most corners, which is by definition trail braking.

In my opinion, the downshifting should occur as late as possible in the braking zone, ideally before the turn-in, but still within the braking zone. With some very fast cars or in very specific turns, sometimes a downshift needs to happen past turn-in (just watch some F1 vids), but it is rather rare.

As Car54, I see a lot of students that try to hurry the downshift as soon as they hit the brake pedal. By being patient and doing it later in the braking zone, the speed is slower, so you need much less of a rev increase to match the revs. Less of a blip required, less chances to money shift, less chances to upset the chassis and if the chassis gets unbalanced it is at a lower speed.

[LiM3y]

I wouldn't want to be heel-toeing and trail-braking at the same time...you fuck up the clutch release (under or over revving) and you'll be getting a front row seat to the car behind you swerving to avoid you!

[Car54]

Trailclutching...I've heard of this technique being used at Oak Tree.

[Gearhead999s]

My new T Shirt

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

How's turn 1 at limerock work for you then?

Horribly...and I have film to prove it!

I like to do Turn 1 slowly so I can use the GPS to help me find my way out of the turn when I get lost in the middle!

I only get up to 120-130/4th on the front straight, so after braking and a heel-toe down shift to 3rd in a straight line and trail-braking into the apex.


If you are at the limit of traction in a turn, or close to it, any braking or accelerating of the rear wheels by innaccurate rev-matching could easily cause the tires to break loose and start sliding. This is why DCT is cheating!

[ortho281]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

if you trailbrake you cant get your braking done before the shift? I developed some trail braking on my own as i advanced even though i didnt know what it was called. seems logical for me when learning to intermingle throttle and steering inputs on exit, unwinding the wheel and applying throttle. seems much less natural for me to release the brake slowly as im turning in, because like most of us i was taught to get all my braking done in a straight line. it however isnt the fastest or best was to maximize your lap times or traction available.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

[/B]
I agree, it is also how I see it. I will carry some braking past turn-in in most corners, which is by definition trail braking.

In my opinion, the downshifting should occur as late as possible in the braking zone, ideally before the turn-in, but still within the braking zone. With some very fast cars or in very specific turns, sometimes a downshift needs to happen past turn-in (just watch some F1 vids), but it is rather rare.

As Car54, I see a lot of students that try to hurry the downshift as soon as they hit the brake pedal. By being patient and doing it later in the braking zone, the speed is slower, so you need much less of a rev increase to match the revs. Less of a blip required, less chances to money shift, less chances to upset the chassis and if the chassis gets unbalanced it is at a lower speed.

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

More importantly than allowing for later braking and use of all traction IMO, trail braking is how you rotate the car and set the car's attitude for the turn and the ability to do that well will allow for earlier throttle and more exit speed. This is something people often don't understand about trail braking. It has so many advantages but to me this is the big one.

+1 Well said!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

I wouldn't want to be heel-toeing and trail-braking at the same time...you fuck up the clutch release (under or over revving) and you'll be getting a front row seat to the car behind you swerving to avoid you!

A clutch kick drift baby! I think the ultimate goal should be the ability to trail brake and down shift. I downshift trailbraking and mid-turns in two long sweepers. There's even a 3rd turn where I don't even rev match and just downshift mid turn (T2 Texas World Speedway CCW). I scrub the right amount of speed so that it kind of rev matches itself without upsetting the car.

I would downshift early in the brake zone as an intermediate driver. As I built speed this became an issue because I would be on the verge of overrevving the car...I think I did once. Waiting later gives you a little more headroom.

[Car54]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

My new T Shirt

You got one? I was too late. I did snag this one:

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I agree, it is also how I see it. I will carry some braking past turn-in in most corners, which is by definition trail braking.

In my opinion, the downshifting should occur as late as possible in the braking zone, ideally before the turn-in, but still within the braking zone. With some very fast cars or in very specific turns, sometimes a downshift needs to happen past turn-in (just watch some F1 vids), but it is rather rare.

As Car54, I see a lot of students that try to hurry the downshift as soon as they hit the brake pedal. By being patient and doing it later in the braking zone, the speed is slower, so you need much less of a rev increase to match the revs. Less of a blip required, less chances to money shift, less chances to upset the chassis and if the chassis gets unbalanced it is at a lower speed.

This is good advice. I am a fairly novice driver and I would always find myself rushing and making my downshift too early in the braking zone going into turn one at LRP. I would downshift too early, try to blip the throttle, and let off the clutch. Often times the speed was to high and I either didn't blip the throttle high enough or let off the clutch which upset the car. This was magnified because for a novice there is a lot to think about going into turn one there - I'm doing about 120, try to find my braking marker, break hard, heal toe, and try to find the first turn in cone. I just wanted to get the shift out of the way but the way you described it above, what I should be doing is trying to finish most or all of my braking before executing the downshift.

I started to get better at it toward the end of last season but it takes a lot of seat time to get right. My new car has DCT so I will be cheating this season.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq.

This is good advice. I am a fairly novice driver and I would always find myself rushing and making my downshift too early in the braking zone going into turn one at LRP. I would downshift too early, try to blip the throttle, and let off the clutch. Often times the speed was to high and I either didn't blip the throttle high enough or let off the clutch which upset the car. This was magnified because for a novice there is a lot to think about going into turn one there - I'm doing about 120, try to find my braking marker, break hard, heal toe, and try to find the first turn in cone. I just wanted to get the shift out of the way but the way you described it above, what I should be doing is trying to finish most or all of my braking before executing the downshift.

I started to get better at it toward the end of last season but it takes a lot of seat time to get right. My new car has DCT so I will be cheating this season.

your right dct is cheating. this stuff partially comes about naturally as you try to get faster. you have little revelations every couple times you go that make you faster and it feels easier at the same time. i have a turn one approach at my local track that is 140 in so i know the feeling but that is also very fun getting correct. i do a 5th to 3rd skip shift(something no instructor pointed out i should do) just at the end of very hard braking almost same time as my turn in. getting that entry speed correct is crucial because its a long sweeper and want to be at max traction as soon as possible and not waste time taking a set in the turn. whats so fun about this sport is there is infinite room for improvement. each little tweek means you have to change 5 other things so that change can be fully utilized. its maddening.

[bigjae1976]

I have more problems with DCT.

First, its sometimes hard to tell what gear you are going into. For me, gear selection is a much more conscious effort with the DCT. Then the car is so quiet its hard to hear when you are banging against the redline until it dies out. Then there just a lot more shifting. So a manual maybe physically challenging...I'll take that over diverting mental capacity and my eyes to gear shifts.

It takes me an entire day to really get into the rhythm and gear shifts consistent with the DCT. Takes me one session with a 6sp.

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

Well in that case, Id tell them to focus more on the driving at hand then banging out the prefect downshift. There are many very fast driver I know that don't heel/toe. Just saying...

Could you explain the steps through a corner if you don't heel/toe.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I have more problems with DCT.

First, its sometimes hard to tell what gear you are going into. For me, gear selection is a much more conscious effort with the DCT. Then the car is so quiet its hard to hear when you are banging against the redline until it dies out. Then there just a lot more shifting. So a manual maybe physically challenging...I'll take that over diverting mental capacity and my eyes to gear shifts.

It takes me an entire day to really get into the rhythm and gear shifts consistent with the DCT. Takes me one session with a 6sp.

Interesting, I'll post impressions once I get this car out there. My first track day with the CCA at LRP won't be until late April.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

your right dct is cheating. this stuff partially comes about naturally as you try to get faster. you have little revelations every couple times you go that make you faster and it feels easier at the same time. i have a turn one approach at my local track that is 140 in so i know the feeling but that is also very fun getting correct. i do a 5th to 3rd skip shift(something no instructor pointed out i should do) just at the end of very hard braking almost same time as my turn in. getting that entry speed correct is crucial because its a long sweeper and want to be at max traction as soon as possible and not waste time taking a set in the turn. whats so fun about this sport is there is infinite room for improvement. each little tweek means you have to change 5 other things so that change can be fully utilized. its maddening.

I agree it feels great when you get it right. On my last session of the last day of the season I hit a couple of sweet heel-toes and it felt awesome. The rest of it was just plain ugly.

[LiM3y]

Von zoom wil testify I had a lot of trouble maintaining constant brake pressure when blipping the throttle, which caused the front end to bobble and upset the car. As soon as I focused on improving that...life, Turn 1's and trail braking became a little easier. If you are pressing hard on the brake, it is easier to keep an even pressure.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

Von zoom wil testify I had a lot of trouble maintaining constant brake pressure when blipping the throttle, which caused the front end to bobble and upset the car. As soon as I focused on improving that...life, Turn 1's and trail braking became a little easier. If you are pressing hard on the brake, it is easier to keep an even pressure.

I struggled to apply enough brake because I was concentrating too much on bliping the throttle. The result was that I came in way too fast into Big Bend a few times. It wasn't pretty. My instructors never broke it down for me to concentrating on getting my braking (or most of it) done first before executing the shift. Looking back on it I was trying to do everything together and it was messy. Thanks, this helps.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq.

I struggled to apply enough brake because I was concentrating too much on bliping the throttle. The result was that I came in way too fast into Big Bend a few times. It wasn't pretty. My instructors never broke it down for me to concentrating on getting my braking (or most of it) done first before executing the shift. Looking back on it I was trying to do everything together and it was messy. Thanks, this helps.

yeah thats an issue i have also. seems i forget too much about the braking portion when im trying to get the heel toe thing right.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I have more problems with DCT.

First, its sometimes hard to tell what gear you are going into. For me, gear selection is a much more conscious effort with the DCT. Then the car is so quiet its hard to hear when you are banging against the redline until it dies out. Then there just a lot more shifting. So a manual maybe physically challenging...I'll take that over diverting mental capacity and my eyes to gear shifts.

It takes me an entire day to really get into the rhythm and gear shifts consistent with the DCT. Takes me one session with a 6sp.

I normally drive a 6-spd, but drove BMW's DCTs at VIR. If you don't try to skip gears, I think that the DCT is incredibly simple. At the end of the straight and hill after Oak Tree, I loved down shifting as I left-foot braked and turned into the series of turns while scrubbing off a bunch of speed. With the DCT I simply downshifted one gear at a time as the RPMs fell. Upshifting is also great because you simple keep your foot on the floor and shift.

With the DCT I don't think "which gear" and only think "next gear". I'm either going up or going down, keeping the RPM up over 3,000 and grabbing the "next gear" when revs dictate.

Dave

[Car54]

With the DCT, can you leave it in auto mode and will it downshift to the lowest possible gear as you slow the car?