M3 Beats Out RS5 and CTS-V Coupe in C&D Shootout

[xxs65xx]

Originally Posted by kaykay

He's a troll that's why.

AWD vs. RWD is a matter of preference, in March/April when I was looking at the 997.2 C2S, I liked the C2S 10x more than the C4S.

I've driven over a dozen Audi's in the past year, including the new V10 R8 and while their Quattro system is great and all, I find it to be totally unnecessary unless it's raining, snowing out there. Besides, a RWD car is more fun around the track, you can really play with it and have some serious fun.

+1 AWD has no business on a track IMO

[BMW269]

[Just_me]

Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3

RS5 is in a class of its own. unless bmw has come up with an AWD sports coupe no-one has heard about that is actually driveable in all conditions.
bmw make good cars, they are just not as advanced as audi for all weather conditions. take a drive in your m3 (you have one?) in the pouring rain and heavy snow, let's see how well you do against my rs5. unless you never get rain or snow where you live haha

Thats pure subjective which one is the best but I think you are in minority
We have snow but not enough to buy a AWD car. If the weather is really bad then Volvo XC90 is going to take care of that

[gthal]

Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3

RS5 is in a class of its own. unless bmw has come up with an AWD sports coupe no-one has heard about that is actually driveable in all conditions.
bmw make good cars, they are just not as advanced as audi for all weather conditions. take a drive in your m3 (you have one?) in the pouring rain and heavy snow, let's see how well you do against my rs5. unless you never get rain or snow where you live haha

I agree the AWD system is better in bad weather. However, what I don't agree with is the weight you put on its significance. How many days a year are you driving in heavy rain or snow? And even with AWD, you have more capability but it isn't as though you can drive like you would on a clear day. AWD doesn't make any car invincible. So, for the 15 to 20 days a year that you are driving in really poor weather, the AWD system wins for sure. In nice weather, it is personal preference and, many, would prefer RWD.

The M3 IS driveable in all weather (other than deep snow). I have owned RWD BMWs and Infinitis for the last several years and driven them all winter. The only time there is a problem is because of clearance in deep snow. The RS5 will have the same issue regardless of Quattro.

I have driven the R8 quite a bit and the grip is truly amazing but it is also less involving and fun than the RWD M3. I would choose an R8 over the M3 (if it were close in price, which it isn't) mainly because of how gorgeous the R8 and NOT because of the AWD. Again, for the few days a year when it matters, the RS5 is better. The rest of the year, it is personal preference and it seems most reviews are still favouring the M3.

[graider]

Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3

what awd cars have you owned? just a crv and mdx? well then you know all about quattro awd obviously. sorry bub, the m3 is a great summer/dry pavement car. end of story.

so what exactly does quatro do in snow/rain different than any other awd out there? in fact, I think the rs5 can't do jack in deep snow given it low ground clearance like the m3, mdx will murder it in snow. The only real world advantage of awd in snow is traction off the line and maybe on the corner, but who the hell is racing in the snow anyway? as long as you drive according to weather condition, you will be fine with rwd cars.

you have no idea what you are talking about. lookup canada snow weather and see for yourself, I did it on oem 19 and winter tires for two years and I live in the country side (heavy snow everyday during the winter compare to the big city toronto).

there is no need for awd in rain ever. when you hydropplane, you will hydroplane and nothing quatro can do for you. I saw chicks in quatro flew down the highway in heavy rain condition very often and that is the problem. it gives you false sense of confident.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by swamp2

It can only really be speculation. But let me add some other comments.

-EDC = comfort should be theoretically best for drag times - a softer rear suspension with less damping. The effect would be small either way.

Probably the case, yes. Still, my supposition that most tests use "Normal" is based on the fact that that's the setting most likely to be used by default. I guess I don't give most magazines out there enough credit to think about how the suspension settings might effect things. Maybe that's not fair of me. But in any case, my guess is that few try the acceleration tests in all EDC modes in order to determine which yields the best time.

-Even though launch control requries DSC off I do believe that the clutch, throttle and rear wheel spin is somewhat managed by computer during launch. I could be mistaken.

I think you are correct, but the thing is, to me, this is unlikely to be tied to any changes in MDM mode. Rather I would think that this governed by seperate routines that do not vary based on whether a car is equipped with MDM or not, or equipped with ZCP or not. Speculative, yes, but it makes sense to me just from a maintainability/testability point of view.

-Depending on what other magazines show, I'm certainly prepared to admit that these numbers might be outliers in some sense. Obviously, I'm not prepared to admit C&D cheated, had bad equipment or lied.

I would say for sure there's no cheating here. It's just that rare instance where all the planets were lined up, so to speak.

On a loosely related note I sure would like to get the revised DSC software... Maybe a vendor can pull this off? IIRC your vehicle software has to be uploaded in its entirety.

My understand is that in theory you could update just parts of the vehicle but you are then running things in an untested configuration. When talking about systems as critical as the DME, DSC, ABS, etc, this would be a bit risky at best (and catastrohpic at worst). It would be fantastic if tuners could/would figure out how to decouple the important parts of the software in cases like this and test them all together. My thinking is that would be expensive since you basically have to test on hundreds of different hardware variations (differences in vehicle options, not to mention year to year electronics changes). I wish there were a business case, cuz I'd pay handsomely for this type of software upgradability.

[graider]

Originally Posted by devo

HA! Wow!!! That is funnnneeeee... porches, hahaha, yeah never heard that before. Yeah... geezzzz I can not stop laughing, Just WOW man, you are one talented mofo.

I questioned the times because they appear to be suspect, whether factual or not. I'm not going to back down for questioning something out the ordinary. If the M is this fast great.

LOL, see what I mean by porsche fanboy mentality. When you can't have an intelligent argument or persuade someone to agree with your subjective opinion, then you resource to name calling and childish laughing nonsense. did I bring out the troll in you?

sorry but no matter how many porsche you own, you still doesn't have any class. It was you who assumed that everybody thought the m was great, then went on questioning the time, etc.. why do you care and why so defensive? no one is saying it is better than your gt3 in performance. I suggest stop the trolling.

[bavarian19]

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by graider

so what exactly does quatro do in snow/rain different than any other awd out there? in fact, I think the rs5 can't do jack in deep snow given it low ground clearance like the m3, mdx will murder it in snow. The only real world advantage of awd in snow is traction off the line and maybe on the corner, but who the hell is racing in the snow anyway? as long as you drive according to weather condition, you will be fine with rwd cars.

you have no idea what you are talking about. lookup canada snow weather and see for yourself, I did it on oem 19 and winter tires for two years and I live in the country side (heavy snow everyday during the winter compare to the big city toronto).

there is no need for awd in rain ever. when you hydropplane, you will hydroplane and nothing quatro can do for you. I saw chicks in quatro flew down the highway in heavy rain condition very often and that is the problem. it gives you false sense of confident.

+100000000000000000000


M3 + X1 > Quattro RS

[kinan_sleiman2006]

It is a reasonable score..M3 is the winner

[ChrisK]

M3 FTW!

I absolutely loathe Cadillac. However, I must give the Cadillac team major credit. Did you ever think the M3 would be compared to a Caddy?!

[Banjo]

Evo Magazine tested a DCT M3 and got 4.7 sec to 60 this February, the cold track may have knocked a tenth off the time.

A tuned 335 automatic did it in 4.6

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...road_test.html

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by Banjo

Evo Magazine tested a DCT M3 and got 4.7 sec to 60 this February, the cold track may have knocked a tenth off the time.

A tuned 335 automatic did it in 4.6

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...road_test.html

You have to take all of these tests with a grain of salt. 4.7 with a DCT car, that's way off.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by xxs65xx

exactly who dosent do that? or do they do that? or dont they "really" do that...?

I was just stating that car manufacturers sometimes give their press cars a bit of a 'tweak' for comparison tests - its a fact........WTF are you talking about in your post ?- FAIL.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by quality_sound

Why are you wasting money on 100 Octane??? It doesn't come close to hot enough for even 91 Octane to not be high enough. Are you running a really high compression ratio or something?

Put Shell V Power Racing 100oct in your car and then post back up.............you will notice the difference my friend.

[quality_sound]

Originally Posted by ss134

Put Shell V Power Racing 100oct in your car and then post back up.............you will notice the difference my friend.

I'm not sure a 5% power increase would be terribly noticeable but if we have it over here I'll give it a go.

[footie]

Regardless of what we think or want to believe, the times achieved by C&D are questionable at best. The debate on whether AWD or RWD is better can only be a personal preference thing and nothing more, it's just two differing approaches to achieve very similar reasults.

One comments I read did make me laugh, an M3 is more enjoyable to drive than an R8, sorry but I can't agree, the differences on the track is huge and so is the composure between the two. What the M3 is great at is providing exceedingly good performance on a very practical package but it's no sportscar nor is it a supercar and the same applies to the RS5.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by quality_sound

I'm not sure a 5% power increase would be terribly noticeable but if we have it over here I'll give it a go.

It is also helps the engine to run more efficienty and reduces carbon build up

http://www-accept.shell.com/static/a...racing_tds.pdf

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

One comments I read did make me laugh, an M3 is more enjoyable to drive than an R8, sorry but I can't agree, the differences on the track is huge and so is the composure between the two.

I suspect the same RWD vs. AWD is a factor here. It affects steering feel and greatly affect the cars dynamics at limit. The claim was not that the M3 was more composed but more enjoyable. The same discussion has been had time and time again about the GT-R. Potent but also quite sterile. Either way this is largely subjective. Even though it is subjective I suspect many very experienced drivers are likely to concur.

[MonteCarloM3]

Originally Posted by quality_sound

He said it in the post you quoted. The RS5 isn't available yet.

"points to nose"

my old rs4 was a fantastic car, the M3 is sort of a band-aid between RS models it covers the wound fairly well.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I suspect the same RWD vs. AWD is a factor here. It affects steering feel and greatly affect the cars dynamics at limit. The claim was not that the M3 was more composed but more enjoyable. The same discussion has been had time and time again about the GT-R. Potent but also quite sterile. Either way this is largely subjective. Even though it is subjective I suspect many very experienced drivers are likely to concur.

And yet the R8 was voted 'Performance Car of the Year' and the M3 hasn't. The steering feel of the R8 is far superior to that of the M3 and how anyone could claim different is beyond me.

[MonteCarloM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I suspect the same RWD vs. AWD is a factor here. It affects steering feel and greatly affect the cars dynamics at limit. The claim was not that the M3 was more composed but more enjoyable. The same discussion has been had time and time again about the GT-R. Potent but also quite sterile. Either way this is largely subjective. Even though it is subjective I suspect many very experienced drivers are likely to concur.

OMG, you're comparing an M3 to the GT-R. Sorry, the nissan blows the M3 out of the water in every comparison. As soon as there is a faster car than the M3, the bimmer fans say it doesn't "feel" as good and crap like that.