Track forum general chit chat.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by b4hand

Anyone try one of these yet? Would love some more pictures of it too. https://mfrengineering.com/collectio...front-splitter

Malek@MRF could you give us any details?

That says "mfr" not "mrf"

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by b4hand

Anyone try one of these yet? Would love some more pictures of it too. https://mfrengineering.com/collectio...front-splitter

Malek@MRF could you give us any details?

Lol you have a few letters mixed up there turbo.

MRF did just complete an excellent GTS style splitter though.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by b4hand

Anyone try one of these yet? Would love some more pictures of it too. https://mfrengineering.com/collectio...front-splitter

Malek@MRF could you give us any details?

the website has no info... no more pics, etc

[b4hand]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

That says "mfr" not "mrf"

Well dang. I remember MRF working on a splitter, but in my daze last night I probably missed something. Damnit.

There are very few chassis mount front splitter options, thought there was hope here.

[dparm]

So I'm looking long and hard at trying out NASA TT. It seems pretty straightforward if you're comfortable running HPDE4...but what are the "gotchas" I need to know? What are some of the downsides of running TT versus regular HPDE?

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dparm

So I'm looking long and hard at trying out NASA TT. It seems pretty straightforward if you're comfortable running HPDE4...but what are the "gotchas" I need to know? What are some of the downsides of running TT versus regular HPDE?

There are no gotchas. If you're an advanced driver don't even bother with HPDE4. Go straight to TT. You'll need to apply for a license and get a check ride but just come to the first event in 3 weeks and we'll help you figure it out.

HPDE4 is really for instructors. If you want to just do HPDE's, you'll get more track time with other groups. If you want to scratch your competitive itch or just drive with the fastest drivers then you want to do TT.

For the first event you can do TTU so that you don't have to worry about class and dyno forms. However, when you're ready to truly compete, you'll need to get your car dyno'd and fill out the proper class forms. You'll probably shake out in TT2. You may want to try to get in TT3.

Chase Johnston is our TT Director. He's on FB.

Just sign up and come out !

[dparm]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

There are no gotchas. If you're an advanced driver don't even bother with HPDE4. Go straight to TT. You'll need to apply for a license and get a check ride but just come to the first event in 3 weeks and we'll help you figure it out.

HPDE4 is really for instructors. If you want to just do HPDE's, you'll get more track time with other groups. If you want to scratch your competitive itch or just drive with the fastest drivers then you want to do TT.

For the first event you can do TTU so that you don't have to worry about class and dyno forms. However, when you're ready to truly compete, you'll need to get your car dyno'd and fill out the proper class forms. You'll probably shake out in TT2. You may want to try to get in TT3.

Chase Johnston is our TT Director. He's on FB.

Just sign up and come out !

Thanks and interesting idea to do TTU at first. I was talking with Scott Adams about it a few hours ago and am waiting for the new stuff to go live 1/6. My biggest concern is how competitive TT2 is...looking at some of the results from last year, those guys would fucking smoke me.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by dparm

Thanks and interesting idea to do TTU at first. I was talking with Scott Adams about it a few hours ago and am waiting for the new stuff to go live 1/6. My biggest concern is how competitive TT2 is...looking at some of the results from last year, those guys would fucking smoke me.

Slippery slope, be warned... Just watch - this time next year you are going to be all in with a tow rig, trailer, and dedicated track car

Really though, adding the element of competition in some form or another adds so much fun to the track. Definitely worth trying out at least imo. At the least you will be on the track with some very fast drivers - might be a good learning opportunity if nothing else.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dparm

Thanks and interesting idea to do TTU at first. I was talking with Scott Adams about it a few hours ago and am waiting for the new stuff to go live 1/6. My biggest concern is how competitive TT2 is...looking at some of the results from last year, those guys would fucking smoke me.

I wouldn't worry initially about how you do in your class. There will always be someone to chase or to stay ahead of through the weekend even if they are in a different class. Also, you'll get fast faster in TT. The competition will help push you. Plus, you'll get cleaner laps than in HPDE.

What I am saying is that even if you don't win it is still 10x more fun than doing HPDE. My friend likened HPDE to going to the driving range and TT playing a round of golf. I reckon racing is like playing in a golf tournament in that analogy.

When I started I would set some mini goals. First one was to try to stay on the front row (top 15 overall). It took me a year to achieve that goal. Next was to be faster than the class winner of the next slowest class. That took another year. Then it was to podium. That took another year. Then was to win the region. Managed that in the 4th year.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I wouldn't worry initially about how you do in your class. There will always be someone to chase or to stay ahead of through the weekend even if they are in a different class. Also, you'll get fast faster in TT. The competition will help push you. Plus, you'll get cleaner laps than in HPDE.

What I am saying is that even if you don't win it is still 10x more fun than doing HPDE. My friend likened HPDE to going to the driving range and TT playing a round of golf. I reckon racing is like playing in a golf tournament in that analogy.

When I started I would set some mini goals. First one was to try to stay on the front row (top 15 overall). It took me a year to achieve that goal. Next was to be faster than the class winner of the next slowest class. That took another year. Then it was to podium. That took another year. Then was to win the region. Managed that in the 4th year.

I do enjoy having a rabbit, though looking at some of the times those guys in the GSpeed Corvette pull in TT2 is just hilarious. They're like 10 seconds faster than me at COTA.

Actually need to order new number plates for the side of the car -- am I going to be assigned a number in TT, or can I choose whatever I want? And yes, I know about the minimum number size, rear number, and class designation I need to show.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dparm

I do enjoy having a rabbit, though looking at some of the times those guys in the GSpeed Corvette pull in TT2 is just hilarious. They're like 10 seconds faster than me at COTA.

Actually need to order new number plates for the side of the car -- am I going to be assigned a number in TT, or can I choose whatever I want? And yes, I know about the minimum number size, rear number, and class designation I need to show.

You get gridded by lap time so chances are (initially) you'd never see the GSpeed Corvette in a weekend. But the guy gridded directly in front of you on grid...he's only 0.2 secs faster than you. Surely you can drive a few tenths faster than him and move up 1 spot on the grid. That's the rabbit I am talking about.

Sign up at link below. I'd sign up for TT2 or TTU and send Chase an e-mail indicating that you'll need a check ride. You'll also need to pay for your annual membership and go ahead and rent a transponder unless you have one already.

https://www.nasaproracing.com/events/3257

Chase's e-mail ttdirectornasatx at gmail dot com

TT Application. Fill out and bring to first event. You'll get a check ride. If Scott is there, he'll do it otherwise TT director will arrange someone to check you out. At the end of the first weekend, assuming no issues, you'll be signed off.

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...icense_app.pdf

There's a database with assigned TT numbers. I'll try to find a link. You just pick any number not assigned. Worst case is you add an x.

Edit: Link to numbers below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ot8o-9/pubhtml

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by gmx

The spring rates from KW/Ohlins are far different. Imo BW and MCS just rely on their prior experience. I would not be surprised if they "copy" rates from the others first to market either. Anyway, I shot this question off to the famous diff builder.

Edit: I don't like the idea of taking "Away" grip to balance things but I might stiffen the rear instead depending on how easy it is to get some springs that fit. My only reasoning is everything is solid/spherical in the rear except the upper shock mount (PowerFlex black) and inboard lower camber control arm. I might just get away with it.

That’s a pretty bold statement from someone that clearly knows nothing about BW. They do not “copy” rates and, if you knew them, you’d know they’re always one of the first to offer a developed street/track/race spring-damper setup for a new generation M3/4.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by gmx

What?

I'm talking about the front/rear spring rate ratios varied by generation.
Does BW race a F80 or not?
What diff did their E9x have? Did they change suspension to suit the package or through OTS parts at it?

If the regulations allowed it then BW did indeed change suspension pick-up points, kinematics, etc. BW starting racing the M4 GT4 in 2018 and were the first team to win a race in the US with the GT4.

They use Diffsonline for their pro race cars (excluding the F82 GT4).

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

That’s a pretty bold statement from someone that clearly knows nothing about BW. They do not “copy” rates and, if you knew them, you’d know they’re always one of the first to offer a developed street/track/race spring-damper setup for a new generation M3/4.

Just to clarify, MCS manufactures dampers and Bimmerworld tests spring rates and designs specific parts needed to fit a specific application. Not sure if BW has a specific spec of damper from MCS.

Probably not many BMWs that compete that don't have a part or have had some contact with Bimmerworld. I surely have and we're a massive help. They and Turner are the two big names in BMW tuning.

I'm sorry, KW frankly is geared towards the EU. If they ever tested a car in the US, they'd never spec the spring rates they do because all of their BMW suspensions are too way too stiff.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Just to clarify, MCS manufactures dampers and Bimmerworld tests spring rates and designs specific parts needed to fit a specific application. Not sure if BW has a specific spec of damper from MCS.

Probably not many BMWs that compete that don't have a part or have had some contact with Bimmerworld. I surely have and we're a massive help. They and Turner are the two big names in BMW tuning.

I'm sorry, KW frankly is geared towards the EU. If they ever tested a car in the US, they'd never spec the spring rates they do because all of their BMW suspensions are too way too stiff.

BW has provided considerable feedback to MCS on the design of all MCS dampers. In the early 2000s I was involved with the development of the Moton CS, which had been recently released, e46 M3 setup offered by BW. Even back then they provided feedback to Moton. Oh, talking about “copying” spring rates, pretty much everyone copied the BW Moton CS spring rates on their Moton CS setups after the BW setup was released. This kit was developed back when only a limited number of e46 M3s were being tracked so it was valuable information.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'm sorry, KW frankly is geared towards the EU. If they ever tested a car in the US, they'd never spec the spring rates they do because all of their BMW suspensions are too way too stiff.

I had KW V3s with competition valving (KW didn’t offer Comp kits in the early 2000s) but they failed over and over again on my track-prep’ed e46 M3. This is what made me switch to Moton. After dialing in the Moton CS kit, I was over 3 sec/lap faster at Summit Point Main. The only changes were dampers and spring rates, and only one month (spring time) between running KW and Moton setups, so it was all due to the Moton setup.

As you mentioned above, KW actually stole Koni’s damper design and got caught. I don’t understand why KW street dampers are so popular?

[Ximian]

BW has Stoptech BBKs for 21% off so I think I'll be order the ST60 for the front today. About 5 months until track season starts up here.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by Ximian

About 5 months until track season starts up here.

Dang, we really are spoiled down here in TX. I’m going to the track next weekend, might rain, but weather today was a balmy sunny 70 degrees

[gmx]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Just to clarify, MCS manufactures dampers and Bimmerworld tests spring rates and designs specific parts needed to fit a specific application. Not sure if BW has a specific spec of damper from MCS.

Probably not many BMWs that compete that don't have a part or have had some contact with Bimmerworld. I surely have and we're a massive help. They and Turner are the two big names in BMW tuning.

I'm sorry, KW frankly is geared towards the EU. If they ever tested a car in the US, they'd never spec the spring rates they do because all of their BMW suspensions are too way too stiff.

bigjae1976 Didn't you reduce your front spring rates to reduce the front wheel rate? If you think all EU roads are like Autobahn or what you see on the internet, you're wrong. There is no such thing as a smooth road.

I didn't respond to calls to email James/BW because I already inquired in 2018. Not directly with James admittedly. I didn't accept the oversights and lack of attention to detail before deciding not to go ahead. I actually came as prepared as possible, with a draft cart, weight, weight distribution, types of track, purpose of the car. Funnily enough I forgot to include the tyre I was going to run and was still recommended 650/950 rates.
Since then I considered tractive who do GT3 racecars and remote international telemetry. Same guys that did the RP968 active suspension car. And MCA who do rally cars and all top time attack cars here + Japan. And also production touring cars for the 1Ms/335i/135i. 1M snuck in under MSRP limit by the rules, hence no equivalent M3. That has changed for the last few years enabled F8x entries. You probably never heard of them nor would I expect you to.
So yes, I do believe they, BW and to an extent the rest just operate on a "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" model. No problem, it makes them money to continue operations, fine. It convinces other teams to buy from them, fine. Lets them buy-in and compete in SRO based GT4, cool. They are big names from your perspective, not mine. By the way, if you actually click that project car link on F8x, they have a KW CS 3-way suspension ready for you to buy, lol because it's used on their "project car". Don't bs. Businesses change to keep afloat.

All F82 GT4 use Drexler. It is a homologated series, you cannot change it much at all when you buy it from BMW Motorsport programme.
Diffsonline, way to carry on the vague theme again. 2 clutch? 3 clutch? Custom ramps or available ramps? Kaaz, Giken???

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

That’s a pretty bold statement from someone that clearly knows nothing about BW. They do not “copy” rates and, if you knew them, you’d know they’re always one of the first to offer a developed street/track/race spring-damper setup for a new generation M3/4.

Development is not purchased off the shelf and anybody who tells you different is selling something

The best the Bimmerworlds et al of the world can do is get you in the same zip code as the right setup for your situation, which changes day to day on the same car at the same track. That’s all they’re selling and they are up fro t about it. I doubt you’ll find anywhere they claim to have the optimal setup in a box for anybody on their webpage.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

Dang, we really are spoiled down here in TX. I’m going to the track next weekend, might rain, but weather today was a balmy sunny 70 degrees

Even with one track up here (BIR), we don't have many events in the summer. The alternative is ice driving events or just going out on a frozen lake alone. So much fun with such low operating costs because the tires don't wear out and you don't use the brakes much.

I have family in the Houston area so I thought about leaving my car there for the winter and flying in for events. While that doesn't sound particularly sensible, it beats not driving the car from mid-October to late April.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Development is not purchased off the shelf and anybody who tells you different is selling something

The best the Bimmerworlds et al of the world can do is get you in the same zip code as the right setup for your situation, which changes day to day on the same car at the same track. That’s all they’re selling and they are up fro t about it. I doubt you’ll find anywhere they claim to have the optimal setup in a box for anybody on their webpage.

I don’t disagree with anything you wrote above; however, I’d like to qualify one thing - what I wrote was primarily for people who track, not race, their cars so a typical range of tested rates on track will work in most cases. Also, they do recommend different rates for different goals and setups (e.g., full weight car without aero vs. a stripped car with aero, etc.) as well as provide remote (or onsite) assistance with helping to dial in a car at the same or a brand new track (which could be as simple as a change in ride height, sway bar setting and/or damping, etc. or even a change in spring rates which is not fun to do in the paddock!). The main point I was trying to make is that they do not copy rates from kits made by suspension manufacturers.