Track forum general chit chat.

[gmx]

I agree with you esp on your previous post. Over here, it's even worse. All you need is 5 track days to get in "advanced". Yup, just 5 to be a mobile chicane.

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Trying to distill here. A truly advanced driver is adjusting rotation on corner entry to match exit traction requirements of every specific corner. A base novice is generally not rotating at all, and if they do it’s by accident and they are not comfortable with it at all. Both drivers are trail braking, but specific execution and outcome is obviously very different.

So if you tell them to brake at the ideal point for a low speed exit corner in a 400+ hp car, they are not going to be able to handle the amount of rotation that goes with that ideal braking point (aside from the fact that they will feel like they are going to go off and be semi-panicked). You need to bring them into the technique slowly, in almost all cases.

If I was gifted with the opportunity personally, I'd observe first [or preferably read telemetry]. I've noticed the really good instructors are basically very good listeners too. As in, if I was in the passenger seat, I'd be looking at their visionary traits and when they're applying the primary three inputs. Then go from there. If the person isn't trail braking deep but compounding that with early throttle, then I'd probably force them to rather coast till the apex to build that habit. Sometimes we just have to accept to go slower in order to go faster esp when relearning specifics.
But I'm not a coach. I can just read telemetry based on **shudders** extensive sim experience. I also believe a good coach articulation skillset converges with the race engineer. In modern times, this separates the fast from the ones a notch above; think Verstappen etc.
There's a funny story about Mika Hakkinen complaining about understeer. So they threw increasingly more front at it. To which he complains it got worse. Poor guy was scrubbing the tyres out of habit to force the car into understeer because it was so nervous for him, lol. You would see a hint of it in the primary three inputs such as steering angle.

[rhyary]

all the discussions about driving techniques are a good topic with many good points and few simplistic suggestions. The main challenge is to convert a discussion into action plan a driver can execute. call it a procedure to improve. There are so many connected actions, but where to start?

When I look at someones data, I am not looking for the ultimate results. I am looking for low hanging fruit. What can I suggest that is easiest to implement?

I will give specific example:
I look at the relationship between steering angle and the throttle. If I see the steering angle increased and the throttle % also increase, I recommend that the driver FORCE themselves to NOT apply throttle before he can open the steering NO MATTER how slow they go.

What I am looking for is for the driver brain to develop a vacuum. I want them to feel the agony of going too slow. Before, based on the data, the driver was compensating for slow entry speed with early application of the throttle. The problem is that the brain developed the wrong idea. The brain now feel that the car is on the edge, and the feeling of “I am going as fast as I can possibly go” sets in. Now if you feel that you are on the edge, to go faster you develop the habit of taking more risk. This I don’t like. I don’t want my driver to develop to habit of risk tolerance.

My philosophy is that stepping into a track day, you assume a certain risk. My goal is to go as fast as I can keeping the risk constant.

There is a lot more things like that that I do, but rather than a superficial list, I wanted to delve deep into one thing.

As usual, comments are welcome.

[rhyary]

Some physics to concider when braking hard.

When we see Formula 1 cars braking hard and deep into the corner, we admire the action and want to do the same. But we want to concider physics before we immitate a race car with our road car.

If you are on a relative, to a true race car, on soft suspension, with 200tw tires and ABS, braking hard as you can push the brake pedal may not yield the best results.

First, the harder you brake on softish suspension the more the nose go down and the rear goes up, second your front 200tw tires may exceed their ideal traction profile (and overheat before the corner, where you need them to perform) and third the ABS will be activated. On the E92 M3 it happens around 1100psi. So looking at data, the optimim max brake pressure is about 1000-1100psi.

Given that, it dectates when to start braking and how quickly to start releasing the brake pressure. I would suggest that at 1000 psi you only want to be at that pressure for a second before reducing the pressure gradully to 900-800..400psi.

As the car slows down, you need less pressure for the same decelaration.

Ideally you will not increase pressure ever coming into a corner.

This helps you brake with all 4 wheels on the ground giving you the largest contact patch. It also create a stable platform coming into the turn.

As an experiment, go in a straight line and brake at 400psi. You will be amazed at how much braking the car is doing at 400psi.

Now go in a straight line at different speeds and apply the brakes at the same psi. Say at 400-500.

You will develop the sense of how much braking you got in a relative “low” brake pressure.

Now look at your speed trace at your last HPDE event and corrolate the pressure on the track at the same speed you practice on the road.

Why do I like road exercises, because they are free and you can do it as many times as you need.

While I agree that driving above 80-90mph on track is not the same as canion and public road driving, I would suggest that on the track below 80-90mph would be similar to what you can practice on the road.

For example, I practice all winter left foot braking in my work car, and on the first trackday in the spring I was left foot braking and felt at home. I did not have to re-learn LFB at the track after it became second nature on the road.

Another exercise at home is trail braking. While you can’t practice the technique per se on the public road, you can practice the release of the brakes without dumping the brakes at the end.

Drive your daily car, soft car is good, and as you come to a stopsign, apply the brakes to a maximim pressure, start releasing the brakes at the same rate you closing the distance to the stopsign. Practice coming to a stop with such light brake that the car stop WITHOUT you applying more pressue and WITHOUT the nose of your soft car pops up. The goal is to practice the relationship between the brake force and decelaration. Observe that for the same decaration you need to brake less as speed decreases.

There are more practices you can do on the public road in between trackdays.

No, you can not drive like lunatic on public road to practice for your up and coming HPDE.

[Bartledoo]

rhyary I have been bothered since I was a child by people (my parents) not trailing off the brakes when coming to a stop, so I started implementing the smooth stop practice when I started driving haha.

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Trying to distill here. A truly advanced driver is adjusting rotation on corner entry to match exit traction requirements of every specific corner. A base novice is generally not rotating at all, and if they do it’s by accident and they are not comfortable with it at all. Both drivers are trail braking, but specific execution and outcome is obviously very different.

So if you tell them to brake at the ideal point for a low speed exit corner in a 400+ hp car, they are not going to be able to handle the amount of rotation that goes with that ideal braking point (aside from the fact that they will feel like they are going to go off and be semi-panicked). You need to bring them into the technique slowly, in almost all cases.

Yeah I get that, but when I hear "advanced technique" I picture a coach telling a driver "Okay now that you're becoming an advanced driver, it's time to forget those basic techniques and try this completely different new advanced technique!" When really it's just teaching a new perspective or other ways to improve those basics they were probably doing poorly. Maybe a complete beginner needs some different instruction, like only straight-line braking at first because you just want them to get around safely. But I think intermediate to advanced is just improving on the basics to keep the car on the limit and on an efficient line.

I don't think it's advanced technique, but really just that advanced drivers use techniques more effectively. I guess I'm arguing about semantics here, which can be annoying so sorry

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

rhyary I have been bothered since I was a child by people (my parents) not trailing off the brakes when coming to a stop, so I started implementing the smooth stop practice when I started driving haha.

My parents and lots of other people start out braking very soft and then brake way harder as you get closer to the stoplight or intersection. Drives me nuts!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

Yeah I get that, but when I hear "advanced technique" I picture a coach telling a driver "Okay now that you're becoming an advanced driver, it's time to forget those basic techniques and try this completely different new advanced technique!" When really it's just teaching a new perspective or other ways to improve those basics they were probably doing poorly. Maybe a complete beginner needs some different instruction, like only straight-line braking at first because you just want them to get around safely. But I think intermediate to advanced is just improving on the basics to keep the car on the limit and on an efficient line.

Good point. When instructing a novice, the driver AND the instructor are often in self preservation mode. First thing I always work on is getting the student to relax a little bit. Then start to get their eyes up and look ahead.

Until those things happen I’m just keeping them on track. Certainly very little trail braking. I’m telling them to brake enough so I know the car can get through the turn. It it usually a little faster than the student is comfortable.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Some physics to concider when braking hard.

When we see Formula 1 cars braking hard and deep into the corner, we admire the action and want to do the same. But we want to concider physics before we immitate a race car with our road car.

If you are on a relative, to a true race car, on soft suspension, with 200tw tires and ABS, braking hard as you can push the brake pedal may not yield the best results.

First, the harder you brake on softish suspension the more the nose go down and the rear goes up, second your front 200tw tires may exceed their ideal traction profile (and overheat before the corner, where you need them to perform) and third the ABS will be activated. On the E92 M3 it happens around 1100psi. So looking at data, the optimim max brake pressure is about 1000-1100psi.

Given that, it dectates when to start braking and how quickly to start releasing the brake pressure. I would suggest that at 1000 psi you only want to be at that pressure for a second before reducing the pressure gradully to 900-800..400psi.

As the car slows down, you need less pressure for the same decelaration.

Ideally you will not increase pressure ever coming into a corner.

This helps you brake with all 4 wheels on the ground giving you the largest contact patch. It also create a stable platform coming into the turn.

As an experiment, go in a straight line and brake at 400psi. You will be amazed at how much braking the car is doing at 400psi.

Now go in a straight line at different speeds and apply the brakes at the same psi. Say at 400-500.

You will develop the sense of how much braking you got in a relative “low” brake pressure.

Now look at your speed trace at your last HPDE event and corrolate the pressure on the track at the same speed you practice on the road.

Why do I like road exercises, because they are free and you can do it as many times as you need.

While I agree that driving above 80-90mph on track is not the same as canion and public road driving, I would suggest that on the track below 80-90mph would be similar to what you can practice on the road.

For example, I practice all winter left foot braking in my work car, and on the first trackday in the spring I was left foot braking and felt at home. I did not have to re-learn LFB at the track after it became second nature on the road.

Another exercise at home is trail braking. While you can’t practice the technique per se on the public road, you can practice the release of the brakes without dumping the brakes at the end.

Drive your daily car, soft car is good, and as you come to a stopsign, apply the brakes to a maximim pressure, start releasing the brakes at the same rate you closing the distance to the stopsign. Practice coming to a stop with such light brake that the car stop WITHOUT you applying more pressue and WITHOUT the nose of your soft car pops up. The goal is to practice the relationship between the brake force and decelaration. Observe that for the same decaration you need to brake less as speed decreases.

There are more practices you can do on the public road in between trackdays.

No, you can not drive like lunatic on public road to practice for your up and coming HPDE.

That is mostly wrong. You can have two drivers apply the same brake pressure and get two different results. It comes down to HOW you apply the brakes. I'd describe it as a squeeze vs a stomp. Squeezing the pedal will transfer the same weight as stomping but in a less violent manner and the car is better balanced.

The key is coming off the brakes. How quickly and how smooth can you do it? The smoother and quicker you are it, the more weight you keep over the front tires for longer.

This is why most drivers complain about understeer at turn in. Its not the setup or the tires, its the driver and how they are applying the technique.

Actually, those saying braking longer is faster are 90% wrong. Building max brake pressure for a shorter distance is faster than applying the brakes for longer. What makes threshold braking slower is the driver doesn't have the control, feel, and sense to be on and off the brakes quick and smooth. So what happens is the driver stomps the brakes, jumps off the pedal and overslows the car in doing so. Then tries to turn in. The car has lost the forward weight transfer so it understeers and you go slower through the turn.

I know I don't threshold brake in some cases because I can't get off the brakes fast and smooth enough to keep the weight transfer forward and get the car to respond. Instead I brake for a little less for longer. And I probably lose at least .2-.3 seconds in those turns.

Being below threshold braking is similar to maintenance throttle. Its slower but sometimes you have to do it but it is mostly because of a lack of skill and control.

[rhyary]

bigjae1976

You start by saying I am wrong, than continue to say what I said. Nice!

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

bigjae1976

You start by saying I am wrong, than continue to say what I said. Nice!

That’s the exercise at hand. We each repeat each other in various ways and self congratulate. 😆 It’s a nice community

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by rhyary

bigjae1976

You start by saying I am wrong, than continue to say what I said. Nice!

Not really. If you read my reply, you are missing a variable in the whole braking process...the driver.

First, the harder you brake on softish suspension the more the nose go down and the rear goes up,

Not necessarily. If you are smoother in building up the brake pressure you get more overall grip. Think of a container of water. If you are smoother in moving it around then you will get less water sloshing out of the container. Same principle on the suspension.

It's the very reason why adults will almost never become a professional driver. The quickness and smoothness of the inputs become naturally far better. Kids have a developing nervous system that learns those inputs. Adults do not, most probably have a degrading nervous system. We can be super smooth but then we'd devote so much of our focus on being smooth this one time that other things may suffer.

It's that initial smooth input on any of the controls that makes a big difference. Did not see where it was talked about. If it was then I apologize.

[omgzirra_exe]

i should give my beginners pov

[gmx]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

Yeah I get that, but when I hear "advanced technique" I picture a coach telling a driver "Okay now that you're becoming an advanced driver, it's time to forget those basic techniques and try this completely different new advanced technique!" When really it's just teaching a new perspective or other ways to improve those basics they were probably doing poorly. Maybe a complete beginner needs some different instruction, like only straight-line braking at first because you just want them to get around safely. But I think intermediate to advanced is just improving on the basics to keep the car on the limit and on an efficient line.

I don't think it's advanced technique, but really just that advanced drivers use techniques more effectively. I guess I'm arguing about semantics here, which can be annoying so sorry



My parents and lots of other people start out braking very soft and then brake way harder as you get closer to the stoplight or intersection. Drives me nuts!

You did highlight a serious point here. I have thought of writing blog posts on commong phrases such as "slow in, fast out". In a nutshell, all it means is slow down slower to keep the weight on the front preventing any throttle corrections due to overslowing. All whilst respecting what the front tyre is willing to offer at the limit of adhesion to ensure you're still fast on the exit. That's it.

[Bartledoo]

I always preached how little work the 6mt is in the M3 vs the DCT…well, now I’m over here tipping the C8 on its side to fit two extra liters into the DCT lol.

Edit: why does m3post randomly flip images??!

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by gmx

You did highlight a serious point here. I have thought of writing blog posts on commong phrases such as "slow in, fast out". In a nutshell, all it means is slow down slower to keep the weight on the front preventing any throttle corrections due to overslowing. All whilst respecting what the front tyre is willing to offer at the limit of adhesion to ensure you're still fast on the exit. That's it.

The problem seems to be is there is a lot of poor quality HPDE instruction material and poor quality instruction. A lot of memes end up being thought of actually good advice such as "slow in, fast out," "fast in, fast out," "smooth in, fast out," or the new one "fast in, faster out."

Motorsport Safety Foundation is trying to standardize instructor training material but it's not necessary achieving that goal at the pace some expect. However, it did result in a lot of HPDE organizers attempting to improve instruction and hopefully addressing the nonsense. So what you'll end up seeing as a novice now with some of those MSF "Level 2" HPDE organizers is that they'll start suggesting different things than what we're used from instructors years ago.

An instructor working with a novice, having them learning about and practicing trail braking on their first day? Absolutely happening today. A novice that's triple braking into a corner and then braking again past the apex after they've been attending HPDEs for a decade? Also happens...

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

I always preached how little work the 6mt is in the M3 vs the DCT…well, now I’m over here tipping the C8 on its side to fit two extra liters into the DCT lol.

True dedication flipping the C8 upside down to properly top up the DCT

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Edit: why does m3post randomly flip images??!

before posting the picture, open it in an image viewer, rotate it 90 degrees, and save. open again, undo the rotation, and save again.

now you're free to post it.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

before posting the picture, open it in an image viewer, rotate it 90 degrees, and save. open again, undo the rotation, and save again.

now you're free to post it.

Let’s see if it works with this one…sent the M3 to its new owner today

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Let’s see if it works with this one…sent the M3 to its new owner today

Heartbreaking

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Let’s see if it works with this one…sent the M3 to its new owner today

Aww sad day.

[///Mobbin]

Enclosed transport, new owner already taking good care at least!

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Enclosed transport, new owner already taking good care at least!

Mainly because of that wing, it would make the freight more costly due to air drag. And lay down some lighting poles too.

[roastbeef]

Relevant to the recent braking discussion.

https://speedsecrets.com/category/ask-ross/