S65 Glorious Sound Lacking with DCT?

[MineralWhiteF80]

the OP’s opinion isnt wrong, but also a 6mt s65 combo isn’t difference sounding than a dct s65.

I’ve owned both and know them well enough.

There is a lot more pause in a 6MT shift and a lot more change in throttle position when going from letting off the throttle to shift and then applying extra throttle immediately after the shift to make up for the lost acceleration during gear change.

In a dct car, you are keeping the same amount of the throttle throughout the shift and the transmission shifts very quickly so you don’t hear as much of an engine note change.

6mt example:
10% throttle….0% throttle….shift gears…. 20% throttle and then tapering back to 10% throttle

dct example:
10% throttle… shift while at still 10% throttle…continue at 10% throttle. this doesn’t give the sound of of the drop in rpm then lugging the engine up to speed using additional throttle.

You can get the same exact 6mt sound in a dct by accelerating up to a certain rpm, letting off the throttle, pulling the shift paddle, let the car make the gear change, and then get back on the throttle.

[a5m]

Originally Posted by SunnyD

While it's true they both have ratios, the reason why the manual's revs "drop" is because when you clutch in to change gears, the revs drop and head down to idle before you engage the next gear. In the DCT, the changes are so instantaneous that you don't get the same drop in the revs.

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

the OP’s opinion isnt wrong, but also a 6mt s65 combo isn’t difference sounding than a dct s65.

I’ve owned both and know them well enough.

There is a lot more pause in a 6MT shift and a lot more change in throttle position when going from letting off the throttle to shift and then applying extra throttle immediately after the shift to make up for the lost acceleration during gear change.

In a dct car, you are keeping the same amount of the throttle throughout the shift and the transmission shifts very quickly so you don’t hear as much of an engine note change.

6mt example:
10% throttle….0% throttle….shift gears…. 20% throttle and then tapering back to 10% throttle

dct example:
10% throttle… shift while at still 10% throttle…continue at 10% throttle. this doesn’t give the sound of of the drop in rpm then lugging the engine up to speed using additional throttle.

You can get the same exact 6mt sound in a dct by accelerating up to a certain rpm, letting off the throttle, pulling the shift paddle, let the car make the gear change, and then get back on the throttle.

Thank you! Both of you nailed it. It's kinda shocking people aren't understanding the difference between the two transmissions...or maybe just aren't admitting it.

Yes so that's the 'issue' I have with the DCT. The last part you said MineralWhiteF80 about simulating a manual, seems would take a lot of thought and effort. Wouldn't be as natural as just pulling the paddle so I probably wouldn't want to operate the DCT that way anyway knowing what it's purpose and advantage is. Good to know though that I can if I wanted to, so I'll pick the one that I know I'll enjoy more, which is the manual.

[Brandoch]

Have you driven an E9X M3 yet?

[wyatth]

Originally Posted by a5m

... Good to know though that I can if I wanted to, so I'll pick the one that I know I'll enjoy more, which is the manual.

What was the point of this thread, then? You like the sound of a manual car more, and you say you'll enjoy the manual more ...


One could also probably just put the DCT in the slowest shifting mode. I think they both have ~25lb flywheels, so revs should drop at a similar speed between the two. The 6MT shift is slower and lands at a lower RPM (6 vs 7 gears) so it'll have a wider RPM range, but I still think it's hilarious that that sound is a matter of concern compared to the driving experience and performance differences behind that sound.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

the OP’s opinion isnt wrong, but also a 6mt s65 combo isn’t difference sounding than a dct s65.

I’ve owned both and know them well enough.

There is a lot more pause in a 6MT shift and a lot more change in throttle position when going from letting off the throttle to shift and then applying extra throttle immediately after the shift to make up for the lost acceleration during gear change.

In a dct car, you are keeping the same amount of the throttle throughout the shift and the transmission shifts very quickly so you don’t hear as much of an engine note change.

6mt example:
10% throttle….0% throttle….shift gears…. 20% throttle and then tapering back to 10% throttle

dct example:
10% throttle… shift while at still 10% throttle…continue at 10% throttle. this doesn’t give the sound of of the drop in rpm then lugging the engine up to speed using additional throttle.

You can get the same exact 6mt sound in a dct by accelerating up to a certain rpm, letting off the throttle, pulling the shift paddle, let the car make the gear change, and then get back on the throttle.

Why would he be right at anything at all. Turns out he hasn't even driven the car...

[ATLIEN]

Originally Posted by a5m

I mean a manual is slower to shift, so the revs drop in between gears. I personally enjoy the sound of a motor winding down. Then the build up of revs in the next gear allows you to hear the S65's 'full range', and personally for me that's the biggest appeal of this car. Losing that makes me feel would defeat the purpose.

You can kinda do that by reducing the shift sensitivity on the DCT. I do it all the time if I want to pull a lower gear to get that old school rumble without the tranny shifting so quickly to a higher gear.

[akkando]

Okay so you're just saying you like the sound when lugging the engine, basically.

[ATLIEN]

Originally Posted by akkando

Okay so you're just saying you like the sound when lugging the engine, basically.

Pretty much.

[STooK]

I don't think I've ever in the last 16 years since this car's been out I've heard anyone say the manual sounds better than the DCT. While I prefer to drive the manual, I always thought the DCT sounded fantastic like a high end super car. Those lightening fast upshifts and the perfect downshifts just sound so damn good and you don't hear that every day these days. In fact, I think the manual makes an otherwise exotic sounding car sound like a normal v8. However, the only exception is when I match that rev perfectly downshifting in my manual, nothing sounds better than that.

[M3SQRD]

You can essentially drive a DCT equipped car the same way as a MT equipped car. Caveat - I have never driven any of my DCT equipped cars in automatic mode, including even my SMG e46 M3 (with lightweight flywheel and clutch with 4.10 FD diff). I have been driving MT cars for 40+ years so I do know how to drive a MT (S2000 was my last MT car due to spine issues). One e92 M3 has a full AA w/HFC exhaust, 2nd e92 M3 has a full Akra with HFC exhaust. One has Dinan CF intake, 2nd one has Karbonius CF plenum-elbow-cover. F82 AA single mid and three-can axle back exhaust. So you can short shift a DCT and lift the throttle at the same time to get a lazy shift (especially in S1 which I also have never used) if you want to lug (not recommended) the motor at low RPM, you can wot shift with moderate throttle lift to get it to shift more like a MT compared to a DCT wot no-lift shift. I have a 3.62 FD diff which keeps the revs higher than a 3.15 FD diff - both DCT and MT rpm’s drop similarly between gears as long as both have a stock flywheel. I personally don’t hear any sound differences between the DCT and MT cars. Same thing with F82 and e46 - no sound differences between DCT/SMG and MT. The s65 and s55 were designed to work best with a DCT. BTW, E46 with SMG + lightweight flywheel + CSL software shifts fast and smooth (no jerk if slight lift of throttle) compared to stock SMG or MT. Get whichever trans you like but getting a MT because you think it sounds better than a DCT equipped car based solely on video/mic sound measured setups without having driven any e9x makes no sense to me. Sounds will differ based on mic placement, quality of mic, etc. Sorry for the long post.

[NiBe]

I totally get what you mean (I have 6MT). Personally I like both types of sounds and DCT to me is more like "F1" and 6MT more like a traditional M3. But I have learned by experience that questions like yours usually don't get answered here because there is quite a lot of OGs driving automat and they take these threads personally and then it creates a lot of emotions and no data.

[bmw>benz]

I was previously one of those manual die hards (still am in many ways). I came from an e39 m5. I was seeking a manual e92 m3 and ended up in a DCT.

It’s by far one of my favorite things about the car. It’s evident the transmission was made with the s65 in mind. It’s a completely different experience than I have had in previous cars. The sequential gearbox makes every day feel like a motorsports event.
I have recently been to a few track days with the car and do not think a manual would have been as fun.

Everyone’s talking about “saving the manuals”. DCTs are an even rarer breed and as of now extinct for bmw. Enjoy them while you can.

[a5m]

Don't know why I'm not getting notifications. But wow, thanks for all the love and hate. I'm just as surprised this topic hasn't been raised or discussed before. Glad to know I'm not the only one with this opinion.

Originally Posted by NiBe

I totally get what you mean (I have 6MT). Personally I like both types of sounds and DCT to me is more like "F1" and 6MT more like a traditional M3. But I have learned by experience that questions like yours usually don't get answered here because there is quite a lot of OGs driving automat and they take these threads personally and then it creates a lot of emotions and no data.

Thanks man. No doubt the DCT sounds awesome, and has its own charm. The reason why I even brought this up was because I knew there would be days where I wouldn't want to be driving a manual, and I thought I might convince myself to go with the DCT. But the manual is the better pairing in my view to enjoy the full range of sound from the S65. So ultimately I knew I'd be regretting it if I went with a DCT. It'd be worth dealing with a manual on those days.

I test drove a DCT and a manual last week on the same day. Get why people like the DCT. It felt like it had a 100 more HP than the manual. Not sure if it was related to their condition or the year, or maybe one was tuned? Aside from the gearing of course. The DCT was an '11 and the manual a '08. Btw no way you can drive the DCT like a manual. Obviously on a test drive I couldn't test it as freely with the sales guy in the back, but it was obvious I'd need the real thing.

Bought a manual E90 that's on the way Maybe my opinion will have some credibility now!

[akkando]

Originally Posted by a5m

Don't know why I'm not getting notifications. But wow, thanks for all the love and hate. I'm just as surprised this topic hasn't been raised or discussed before. Glad to know I'm not the only one with this opinion.



Thanks man. No doubt the DCT sounds awesome, and has its own charm. The reason why I even brought this up was because I knew there would be days where I wouldn't want to be driving a manual, and I thought I might convince myself to go with the DCT. But the manual is the better pairing in my view to enjoy the full range of sound from the S65. So ultimately I knew I'd be regretting it if I went with a DCT. It'd be worth dealing with a manual on those days.

I test drove a DCT and a manual last week on the same day. Get why people like the DCT. It felt like it had a 100 more HP than the manual. Not sure if it was related to their condition or the year, or maybe one was tuned? Aside from the gearing of course. The DCT was an '11 and the manual a '08. Btw no way you can drive the DCT like a manual. Obviously on a test drive I couldn't test it as freely with the sales guy in the back, but it was obvious I'd need the real thing.

Bought a manual E90 that's on the way Maybe my opinion will have some credibility now!

This topic has never been discussed before for the same reasons there has been no discussion about the sound difference between silver cars and blue cars.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by akkando

This topic has never been discussed before for the same reasons there has been no discussion about the sound difference between silver cars and blue cars.

This shit is hilarious

[TVMA Doc]

Manuals are more fun, but I wouldn't want to go manual in this car ONLY for the sound. I never notice that much difference when driving as quick manual shifts don't really make a noticeable different in "wind down" anyway.

The upside of the DCT is that you can get more gears than you can manage with a manual gate. Try keeping track of 7 or more gears on a manual.

Those extra gears allow for more aggressive gearing for acceleration without losing top end speed. The DCTs can outperform the manuals and not merely due to shift speed. (Likely also in cost of transmission repairs if it fails!)

[TVMA Doc]

Originally Posted by akkando

This topic has never been discussed before for the same reasons there has been no discussion about the sound difference between silver cars and blue cars.

What about those of use with Jerez that have a car that is black AND blue depending upon the light source? Does the car sound different under shifting lighting conditions?

[Lucky1]

I like the sound of throttle blips on this car for rev matching, especially downshifts where you can overshoot the target rpm a bit. DCT is going to “exact match” the target RPM on downshifts, am I correct? Might lose a few extra RPMs and just a bit extra engine sound zing/crescendo?

Caveat: I’ve driven Porsche PDKs and only briedly one F80 DCT.

That said I choose transmission for many more factors combined for the whole experience, not for how it makes the car sound. If the DCT sounded as OP describes the MT but meant I couldn’t row my own gears and thats what I wanted I wouldn’t choose it.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by TVMA Doc

What about those of use with Jerez that have a car that is black AND blue depending upon the light source? Does the car sound different under shifting lighting conditions?

I think it actually shifts different under shifting light conditions.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by DRLane

This shit is hilarious

Yes! That was well stated

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

I like the sound of throttle blips on this car for rev matching, especially downshifts where you can overshoot the target rpm a bit. DCT is going to “exact match” the target RPM on downshifts, am I correct? Might lose a few extra RPMs and just a bit extra engine sound zing/crescendo?

Caveat: I’ve driven Porsche PDKs and only briedly one F80 DCT.

That said I choose transmission for many more factors combined for the whole experience, not for how it makes the car sound. If the DCT sounded as OP describes the MT but meant I couldn’t row my own gears and thats what I wanted I wouldn’t choose it.

Yes, the target rpm is enough to ensure rpm is ~500-800 rpm over the required downshift rpm. Getting the DCT software update for cars having diffs with different FDs produces perfect downshift blip in all gears. I’m running a 3.62 FD vs stock 3.15 FD. Best mod you can do!