Best budget HPDE car for $20k?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by ayao

Found your S2k thread and that answered a bunch of my questions.
What's the TL;DR on AP1 vs AP2 for the track?
And I'm also curious about what turn the MRLS crash happened?

AP1's are cheaper and rev to 9k. They are a bit trickier to drive stock vs stock, but once you start modifying suspension components, that doesn't really matter anymore. I think AP2's look much better and mine is tuned to redline at 8600rpms so I don't feel like I'm missing out on too much of the 9k. 06 and later are the only ones that can be flash tuned with Hondata. Anything earlier needs standalone engine management for tuning.

As for my crash, I was sliding through turn 4 on throttle and near the edge of the track the rear wheels abruptly gained lots of grip (was on re71r's) and hooked up while I was on throttle and still had some opposite lock. It basically threw my car spinning towards the left side tire wall. The gravel trap slowed me down some, but I still slammed into the tire wall spinning and 3 sides of the car got damaged. Luckily it was mostly cosmetic and I was totally fine with full safety gear (6 point and HANS).

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

It sounds like an s2000 might be a good option. I definitely want to have fun and be challenged. I actually don't care about actual lap times and bragging rights.

It's definitely a car that stays challenging at least for me. But there are times where I want a car that is just fun to go sideways in and an m3 would be much better for that.

[MShift]

my buddy has an incredibly fast race 2005 STI for sale right now for that price. PM me if you want more info. 500whp built motor... car holds the open tt class record at watkins glen. Car is in NH. Still has full interior, a/c and is very drivable on the street.

[GT3fan]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

It's definitely a car that stays challenging at least for me. But there are times where I want a car that is just fun to go sideways in and an m3 would be much better for that.

How secure is the optional hardtop? Do you feel it is almost as rigid as an actual coupe in a rollover situation?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

How secure is the optional hardtop? Do you feel it is almost as rigid as an actual coupe in a rollover situation?

It's secure, but it's not rigid enough to be a structural safety piece in a rollover. Probably a bit safer than a soft top.

[ailikesiliu]

s2k

[GT3fan]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

It's secure, but it's not rigid enough to be a structural safety piece in a rollover. Probably a bit safer than a soft top.

That's what I thought but never knew definitively. Thanks for the info!

[Nihilation]

How about a 2,800 lb Nissan Skyline R32 GT-S Type-M? It's RWD, 5-speed manual and the inline 6 turbo RB20DET engine makes 215hp stock. It's turbo, so with the basic breathing mods and tuning can be 250'ish whp and redlines over 8k RPM. If that's not enough POWA, swap in an RB26. The Type-M also has decent sized 4-piston brakes and can fit 265 width tires.

Maybe the best part is you can buy these from many importers for less than $12k.

F'it, just get a 350Z.

[GabeS]

Originally Posted by Nihilation

How about a 2,800 lb Nissan Skyline R32 GT-S Type-M? It's RWD, 5-speed manual and the inline 6 turbo RB20DET engine makes 215hp stock. It's turbo, so with the basic breathing mods and tuning can be 250'ish whp and redlines over 8k RPM. If that's not enough POWA, swap in an RB26. The Type-M also has decent sized 4-piston brakes and can fit 265 width tires.

Maybe the best part is you can buy these from many importers for less than $12k.

F'it, just get a 350Z.

$800 turbo upgrade with AEM air fuel regulator and your talking 380-400hp and lots of fire balls

[ayao]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

It's secure, but it's not rigid enough to be a structural safety piece in a rollover. Probably a bit safer than a soft top.

Do you daily / dual-use your S2k or is it pretty much track only?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by ayao

Do you daily / dual-use your S2k or is it pretty much track only?

I drive it all the time, but I work from home so I don't have a commute. I have enough expensive stuff on the car that I won't leave it for long in any parking lot. So most of the time it's taking it to drive for pleasure and then right back home.

[GT3fan]

Any thoughts on a c5 z06? Cheesy interior, but lots of bang for the buck.

[tdott]

I have a Z3 Coupe for sale.

Great chassis that at the time was the most ridged chassis BMW made and lots of potential for mods. It's small, light and nimble.

Well within your budget with room to get it track prepped the way you want it.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1376001

[blue flowers]

E36 M3 or C5 Z06

Both of those cars are cheap and easy to maintain with parts being readily available at pretty much any auto parts store. On top of that, both cars are cheap and easy to modify.

A properly setup C5 Z06 with a good driver is pretty hard to beat.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

I want to start attending some HPDE track days, so I've decided to buy something inexpensive that is cheap to maintain and repair with affordable consumables like brakes and tires and if I crashed it would not be a significant financial pain.

My e90M is too pristine and a little heavy, which equates to higher consumable costs. I considered using my DD GTi, but I made the mistake of buying an automatic for my commute.

My thoughts are that if you are 'starting to attend HPDEs', just keep your E9X M. You can get Xpel for the whole car if you really want to. You can insure the car for more than its worth as well.

It is way too early to get a 'track car'. In fact, doing that will compromise your learning.
You do not need sticky tires
You do not need a BBK
You do not need suspension
You do not need lighter weight

You need to learn how to drive a car at the track. Whatever car you have will work for that, although it's best if it's Right Wheel Drive.

In the lower run groups there is very little 'wear and tear'. Likewise, consumables in those run groups last 'forever'.

Seriously. I've done the whole thing: started doing 20 track days a year years ago and progressed from newbie to instructor.

I have seen many people buy frankensteins of one kind or another for the track WAY too early and it's just not good


I strongly disagree with those who say the E9X is super expensive to track. I've double tracked (two people in different run groups) the E46M for 3 years, now the E9X platform for a few years as well.
Beyond a shadow of doubt I would take a E9X with 100k miles for $25k before anything else.

I have my brother and I plus another driver who comes from Barcelona for the track events in the northeast every summer. We have tracked the E9X and E46 back to back, in the same event, same mods, same tires and that's my feedback.

[blue flowers]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

My thoughts are that if you are 'starting to attend HPDEs', just keep your E9X M. You can get Xpel for the whole car if you really want to. You can insure the car for more than its worth as well.

It is way too early to get a 'track car'. In fact, doing that will compromise your learning.
You do not need sticky tires
You do not need a BBK
You do not need suspension
You do not need lighter weight

You need to learn how to drive a car at the track. Whatever car you have will work for that, although it's best if it's Right Wheel Drive.

In the lower run groups there is very little 'wear and tear'. Likewise, consumables in those run groups last 'forever'.

Seriously. I've done the whole thing: started doing 20 track days a year years ago and progressed from newbie to instructor.

I have seen many people buy frankensteins of one kind or another for the track WAY too early and it's just not good


I strongly disagree with those who say the E9X is super expensive to track. I've double tracked (two people in different run groups) the E46M for 3 years, now the E9X platform for a few years as well.
Beyond a shadow of doubt I would take a E9X with 100k miles for $25k before anything else.

I have my brother and I plus another driver who comes from Barcelona for the track events in the northeast every summer. We have tracked the E9X and E46 back to back, in the same event, same mods, same tires and that's my feedback.

I agree with basically all of this - you don't really need any special parts on a stock E90 M3 to go fast and have fun at the track... I do somewhat disagree with you about the maintenance cost on these cars compared to some of the other options mentioned.

A C5 Z, or an E36 M3 are orders of magnitude cheaper to maintain and abuse. A popped motor or trans in either of those cars costs a couple grand to replace at most - in an E90 you're talking about $10-$15k in parts before labor, without taking into account depreciation, and other wear and tear. An E90 will serve any beginner just fine, but I personally did not have enough confidence that the car would handle significant abuse in stock form. On summer track days my E90 would regularly go into limp mode due to the trans overheating, and there's always a lingering fear of a spun rod bearing.

As for buying a track toy early being "not good"... I don't disagree with you, but I also think it's important to remember that most people at the track are there because they think cars are cool. If you're out there because you just want to learn how to race and competitive that's one thing - otherwise I don't see any problem with someone having fun in the car of their choosing.

[SYT_Shadow]

blue flowers, we fundamentally agree

I'm not really concerned with the risk of popping a trans in a E9X. It's a lot likelier for something to die in a frankenstein from 1995 than in a 2008+ M3.

I'm concerned with this thread because one thing is people who have, say, a hundred track days under their belt and they are buying a Spec Miata or stripped out E46M than OP. OP states he is just beginning. The wear and tear on his 'nice' car is almost zero.

A dedicated track car will almost surely run race suspension and sticky tires. That is not the best thing to learn how to drive on the track.

[blue flowers]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

blue flowers, we fundamentally agree

I'm not really concerned with the risk of popping a trans in a E9X. It's a lot likelier for something to die in a frankenstein from 1995 than in a 2008+ M3.

I'm concerned with this thread because one thing is people who have, say, a hundred track days under their belt and they are buying a Spec Miata or stripped out E46M than OP. OP states he is just beginning. The wear and tear on his 'nice' car is almost zero.

A dedicated track car will almost surely run race suspension and sticky tires. That is not the best thing to learn how to drive on the track.

I do agree with you completely to avoid a heavily modified "Frankenstein" car, no matter how cool it is, for track purposes. You won't even be able to have fun in it and will more than likely end up chasing problem after problem.

I do however think a C5 Z or E36 M3, even in nearly stock configuration, provide a better (more reliable/robust) all around package to drive on street and track than an E90 M3 (assuming you're doing more than 10 track events a year).

[GT3fan]

Hi guys,

I only plan to attend 3 to 4 events a year at first. If I really get into tracking then it will increase the number of annual events given free time of course.

[elim11]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

Hi guys,

I only plan to attend 3 to 4 events a year at first. If I really get into tracking then it will increase the number of annual events given free time of course.

I think the posts above (SYT and blueflowers) hit the nail on the head. 3-4 events a year, you do not need a separate track car. See if you really, REALLY like it and improve as a driver and go from there. The e90 is a great track car for your purpose, and if you are afraid to get it dirty, damaged, etc, you can protect it with some clear bras, etc.

Having a dedicated track car is a huge commitment, financially, etc. Don't be that guy with the trailered full blown race car with slicks in the beginner group (ive seen it before) .

[Bgoetz]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

How secure is the optional hardtop? Do you feel it is almost as rigid as an actual coupe in a rollover situation?

The S2000 is one of the few cars where the factory roll-over protection is sufficient for most events. The car is actually designed to rest on the structural window frame and rear trunk deck, forming a triangle for the driver. That said I have considered a roll-bar ($700 for a good one), but then there is that slope of safety mods, where it becomes debatable what is safe if you drive on the street.

AP1 vs AP2, I have owned both and the AP1 is far more raw than the AP2. My AP2 was stock though. The big advantage to the 06+ is a flash makes easy power, but I prefer the rawness of my AP1 and the 9k redline paired with the slightly different gearing. To each their own though. The only downside to the AP1 on the track is the oil making its way out of the PCV, but that is an easy fix. Some will say retainers and banjo bolts, but IMO those are way overblown.

The only real weak point is the brakes, the rotors more specifically and you have two options. One run the stock setup and spend $ on pads and rotors that will crack and wear (most including myself just go this route) or if you track enough a BBK becomes cost effective. The other mod that I like is a baffle in the pan, but I tracked mine a bit before I finally tossed one in. That said dropping the pan is a very easy job, not near like a BMW.

Hope this helps feel free to message if you have anyS2k questions

[Bgoetz]

As far as square vs staggered, I wouldn't say going square makes the car something entirely different and is a must. Square is faster, but how many cars that you toss more rubber on are slower? I think that going square removes some of the characteristics of what I like about the car on the street and even at the track. I have been satisfied with the alignment adjustment and spring/sway bar adjustments to get what I want from it without going square. Again would I be faster, I am sure, does it matter for a guy like me who just likes to have fun, not really.