!!!!! M-DCT / M-DKG is here !!!!!

[nitramsen]

Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio

8%

You?

When I left the shop today 7%(No fleet discount included) plus discount on the winter rims/tires (I wanted 25% on the winter tires which he more or less accepted) but I am going for 9% total .

The sales guy had to speak with his boss on monday because I wanted total of 9% and he could not okay that himself.

What color/ extras did you order?

I think i'm going for Jerez if bmw Individual cannot paint the car sapphire black or another real black metallic and fully loading the car with all extras.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by Technic

I have tried to impress women with 6-piston calipers but it seems that is not working...

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Are you serious in not acknowledging many men attempts to impress women with their cars and driving in general and that then MT skills are a real part of the overall "skill set". It is probably often not explained explicitly either.

I am not saying you or I would do this, just that it happens.

IMO, you'll only impress women with your driving skill if she is a car enthusiast and knows and appreciates genuine driving skill... otherwise you'll most likely scare the shit out of them

[swiss_cornholio]

Originally Posted by nitramsen

When I left the shop today 7%(No fleet discount included) plus discount on the winter rims/tires (I wanted 25% on the winter tires which he more or less accepted) but I am going for 9% total .

The sales guy had to speak with his boss on monday because I wanted total of 9% and he could not okay that himself.

What color/ extras did you order?

I think i'm going for Jerez if bmw Individual cannot paint the car sapphire black or another real black metallic and fully loading the car with all extras.

Alpine White / Palladium Silver
19", EDC, nav., M-DCT, all seat options, USB audio, hifi speakers, shadow line

And btw its an E92 coupe.

Usually I would select a dark color, but with the cf roof, I had to go for white.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by T Bone

...In all cases, stick is inferior to a SMG or DCT...

Originally Posted by T Bone

Fact: You lose 1.5 - 2 seconds worth of acceleration over 4 gears with a MT vs. SMG / DCT.

Please debate.

Swamp's points were good.

Furthermore, you state "in all cases". Then you only make one case for automated manuals, ie DCT really.
Are you suggesting the one case you made equals every case out there? That just isn't sound.

[Jimmyz]

Personally, I wouldn't want M-DCT even if it was free. It just isn't as fun as having a manual.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'll take that one. I think the claims will apply to DCT but they do not to SMG.

Your statement is flat out not true with SMG II as implemented in the E46 M3. If the 1.5-2 seconds is true in the M5 I bet that the MT pulled from the base 5 series (550 was it?) was not well optimized for the M5 engine. BMW at best used some very creative marketing in specing SMG shift times (left out both clutching operations I suspect). Acceleration graphs show that SMG shift times are "only" on par with the faster human shifters (about .2-.25 sec). Detailed testing has shown MT E46 M3 to be faster than the SMG variant due to this and slightly poorer launch software as well.

All that being said I still greatly preferred SMG in the E46 for the reasons of consistency, safety, rev matching, hands on the wheel when it matters and its enabling one to focus on more essential parts of driving.

I strongly suspect M-DCT (although mechanically very different than SMG) to be like a perfected SMG in that it will finally have all of the benefits mentioned above plus improved fuel efficiency and finally the true acceleration advantages.

Originally Posted by Epacy

Swamp's points were good.

Furthermore, you state "in all cases". Then you only make one case for automated manuals, ie DCT really.
Are you suggesting the one case you made equals every case out there? That just isn't sound.

This is a classic "I can shift better than my computer" argument.

Look at the acceleration curves for SMG cars, the shifts are almost instantaneous. At the drag strip, tires chirps up to 3-4 gear shift for the M5 / M6. You lose no time accelerating.

I think you are being extremely optmistic with human shift times, try 0.4 - 0.5 seconds. Multiple that by 4 gears and any MT car is done.

Anyone want to talk about downshift times or car balance?

We don't know how MDCT will implement downshifting but I hope it can skip gears which DSG cannot do again. This is for acceleration on highways.... cruise in 7th gear and power down to 3rd / 4th gear in a second for SMG3 and away you go. Can't do that in a DSG which is a big flaw.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

We have two recent M-DCT threads:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105371

both have strongly different delivery dates...lets look who could first confirm this by an official bmw document...

on one side my personal informations (from inside M GmbH!?) are:
"M-DCT comes together with the next M-model / debut March!!! - delivery May/June??? ! - eventually M-DCT comes first only with the new model and a little time later for E90/92"

on the other side my personal dealer ask me on thursday when I would come to make my order (M3 E90 with M-DCT) firm and answered my question if M-DCT could be ordered with "yes" but later he was surprised that he couldn´t find it on the bmw dealer configurator yet......this dealer told me all the time before that he has no informations on M-DCT...but yet he gives me also an price info (€ 2.800,--)...so I think there must be some form of dealer information/briefing (europe!?) at the beginning of 2008...

One reason could be in my opinion that M-DCT comes first in europe and much later in USA/Canada...would be good for me
But I don´t know what I should believe?????

Greets Uli_HH

New M model, is this the rumored M6 CSL?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by nitramsen

I just went to my dealer today and configured my new E90 M3. The order code for M-DCT is 2MK M Doppelkupplungsgetreibe m.Drivelogic.

The price is as stated earlier 5720 CHF.

The Delivery should be around end april or begin May according to the dealer production starts begining Marts.


To the swiss person writing on this thread how much discount did you/do expect to get?


I just hope that the M-DCT is as good as the SMG II in my old E49 M3 as I just loved it.

Thanks nitramsen. That is the first time I have seen order confirmation, delivery date confirmation and price confirmation all concisely in a single post. I think you broke this story, at least on m3post.com. This makes me very happy. Enjoy your car and the anticipation and thanks for sharing with all of us poor US suckers. Which leads to my next point.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Exciting stuff. I wonder what happens when a US dealer tries to order that option?

I think we know the answer, it will fail as it will be unavailable. We can expect everything absolutely last, specs, price, delivery, everything and not just on the DCT but for the whole car. Ugh, bad BMW, bad . I sure hope they prove me wrong and it can be ordered here soon as well.

Here is my cut at US pricing based on this: 5720/(104400/1.076) x 58000 ~ $3,400 (this is just the price of DCT in CHF/car price in CHF (without tax) x expected US base price in USD). Very close to the figure I have been tossing around all along. My suspicion, despite this quick/rough calculation is that the US price will actually be < $3k.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

New M model, is this the rumored M6 CSL?

M3 convertible I'd guess...


Best regards, south

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by T Bone

This is a classic "I can shift better than my computer" argument.

Look at the acceleration curves for SMG cars, the shifts are almost instantaneous. At the drag strip, tires chirps up to 3-4 gear shift for the M5 / M6. You lose no time accelerating.

I think you are being extremely optmistic with human shift times, try 0.4 - 0.5 seconds. Multiple that by 4 gears and any MT car is done.

Anyone want to talk about downshift times or car balance?

We don't know how MDCT will implement downshifting but I hope it can skip gears which DSG cannot do again. This is for acceleration on highways.... cruise in 7th gear and power down to 3rd / 4th gear in a second for SMG3 and away you go. Can't do that in a DSG which is a big flaw.

Like I said despite its imperfections I am still a huge fan of SMG over MT, DCT should really be icing on the cake. Downshift times and maintenance of car balance are solid points to bring to the discussion.

The multiple downshift thing is yet to be determined but I expect it should be at least as good as SMG. It could be one of the bigger weaknesses of the tranny. As far as the shift times go I have seen acceleration graphs showing folks shifting MTs in .25s, but indeed a more typical time is probably .4 seconds and this is where the whole consistency point is driven home.

Do you have an acceleration curve for an M5/6 with SMG vs. MT? I'd be keen on seeing those. What you really need is a race type data logger with time resolution << .25 seconds, say maybe .05 - .1 sec and simply look at the actual fore/aft acceleration rather than v vs. t. Here you get all the gory details of shift time and smoothness. I expect one will have to log with a resolution of more like 5-10 ms to actually capture the whole DCT shift. I can't wait to compare BMWs quoted shift times with such data!

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

M3 convertible I'd guess...


Best regards, south

If true that would be a mis-match..... The M3 with the best tranny will be a convertible? I hope not....

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by T Bone

If true that would be a mis-match..... The M3 with the best tranny will be a convertible? I hope not....

I'd go further, I'd say that would be embarrasing to BMW and to real enthusiasts. Although it is reasonable to market the tranny in a two pronged way, performance and motorsports for the coupe, a very nice automatic transmission for the vert.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by T Bone

If true that would be a mis-match..... The M3 with the best tranny will be a convertible? I hope not....

The convertible is most suited to an "automatic".

[nitramsen]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Thanks nitramsen. That is the first time I have seen order confirmation, delivery date confirmation and price confirmation all concisely in a single post. I think you broke this story, at least on m3post.com. This makes me very happy. Enjoy your car and the anticipation and thanks for sharing with all of us poor US suckers. Which leads to my next point.



I think we know the answer, it will fail as it will be unavailable. We can expect everything absolutely last, specs, price, delivery, everything and not just on the DCT but for the whole car. Ugh, bad BMW, bad . I sure hope they prove me wrong and it can be ordered here soon as well.

Here is my cut at US pricing based on this: 5720/(104400/1.076) x 58000 ~ $3,400 (this is just the price of DCT in CHF/car price in CHF (without tax) x expected US base price in USD). Very close to the figure I have been tossing around all along. My suspicion, despite this quick/rough calculation is that the US price will actually be < $3k.

This is Switzerland so the delivery date is not exactly confirmed more an estimate but under normal conditions it should be delivered at the given times. (My last BMW was deliver 3 weeks earlier than the estimate date )

If I could get the car for 61.000 USD I would have no problems waiting the few months extra you guys in the US have to wait. Total price here is 126.818 USD full loaded.
But who am I to complain I will get my toy before you guys ( of cause at double the price)…….

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

M3 convertible I'd guess...


Best regards, south

From a well respected member of the M5board, Cosmos:

"Its not an M6 CSL. Here is the news so far.

No M6 CSL in current M6. The e92 M3 will never be an CSL. The next gen M6 (F12) will be two distinct models and will offer standard M6 and CSL M6.

New model is none other than X5/X6 M cars of course. "

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Do you have an acceleration curve for an M5/6 with SMG vs. MT?

Here is a high rez JPEG of the 2008 M3 data panel, notice the 0.4-0.5 second lag in acceleration? It even appears the car is slowing down in the higher gears during the shift.

By way of comparison, attached is an M6 data panel. It is not important to look at the times but rather how smooth the curves are.

Any other data requested?

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

From a well respected member of the M5board, Cosmos:

"Its not an M6 CSL. Here is the news so far.

No M6 CSL in current M6. The e92 M3 will never be an CSL. The next gen M6 (F12) will be two distinct models and will offer standard M6 and CSL M6.

New model is none other than X5/X6 M cars of course. "

So you believe me that it's the M3 convertible!?

Also heard rumors that there won't be an E92 M3 CSL...


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

So you believe me that it's the M3 convertible!?

Also heard rumors that there won't be an E92 M3 CSL...


Best regards, south

No idea what to believe but MDCT on a Cab only would be very strange.... Unless BMW wants to push people towards the Cab.

I am glad to hear there will be a F12 M6 CSL.

[nusevad]

Called my sales guy a few minutes ago, i asked him about the DCT rumors and 2MK option # and he said that he has not heard anything on these.

He said his speculation is that we will get only 6sp MT for initial launch and DCT shortly in the future, possibly middle-late 08 orders.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

No idea what to believe but MDCT on a Cab only would be very strange.... Unless BMW wants to push people towards the Cab.

I am glad to hear there will be a F12 M6 CSL.

It won't be Cab only, possibly M-DCT will be available simultaneously for E90/92/93 M3. It's just that DCT's first "appearance" will be in the M3 E93 PR (this or next month I guess).


Best regards, south

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Here is my cut at US pricing based on this: 5720/(104400/1.076) x 58000 ~ $3,400 (this is just the price of DCT in CHF/car price in CHF (without tax) x expected US base price in USD). Very close to the figure I have been tossing around all along. My suspicion, despite this quick/rough calculation is that the US price will actually be < $3k.

I was kicking this very topic around late on fri w/ a colleague who has an order in for the e92 M3 for 2 years now and is likely going w/ 6MT.

After some debate we thought that high $2's to high $3's were likely. After all, the M-DCT is a 'techno leap' over SMG and is fervently awaited (witness many posts on m3post) and relative to the old car such a premium for this tranny would not be out-of-line.