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      12-20-2018, 09:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorH View Post
Super cool project. Are you taking the opportunity to use different sized crank main bearing journals rather than BMW spec?
The BMW S65 bedplate locks you in to BMW main bearings. However, there are custom-sized main journals with slightly reduced diameter to give appropriate clearance.

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What's the approach for the exhaust headers and how will you optimize those?
Here's a picture of Bert's RD Sport headers that came with his stroker. These are a brand new set that replaced my originals. Not sure the details why a new set was given to replace the originals. These are 4-1 design. Bert was told these need to be converted from 4-1 to 4-2-1 for the flat plane engine. You can see from the photos that the headers are made in two pieces and the header portion is about 2-feet long. That will be plenty to remake this section into 4-2-1 wherever it needs to be. Click the photo to enlarge.



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Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
Who on earth would that be?
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Originally Posted by serranot View Post
I asked RRT about building me a flat plane engine. I can’t believe this is happening. Timing for me is awful but would buy in another life.
What did they say? I think the whole thing boils down to getting the cams. Did they say they could get the project done?

Quote:
Curious what you will use to run the engine. Can you revise the stock engine computer?
The factory MSS60 has flat-plane tables built into it, but I'm told the firing order doesn't match these cams. I'm also told that there are other tables that allow you to change the firing order. So I don't think it will be a problem. If it is, then we rewire the harness to get the correct firing order.

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Originally Posted by IanMan View Post
Honestly, if you're going to go all out and build a flat plane engine, you might as well run a standalone engine management system that doesn't hold you back in certain aspects.
Can you elaborate what gets held back? I don't know what Bert has planned. I don't think he even knows.

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Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but if you aren't stroking it, what is the benefit? (Besides being cool)
Factory crank is 75.2 mm stroke; this one is 81 mm stroke. It's already a stroke with 4.4L displacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serranot View Post
I would think a flat plane crank would be lighter than a cross plane because of the lack of balance weights. For starters.
It should be. Knowing Bert the way I do, I'll bet he will weigh the crank and all the other parts.
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      12-20-2018, 10:14 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
Who on earth would that be?


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Originally Posted by Makaveli7 View Post
what a project! so happy to hear that schrick is accepting to do these in the future!
I got the back story from Bert on this. Apparently Bert emailed Schrick about two years ago and asked if they'd make him cams for a flat plane crank. This was before he bought the crank and cams from Dinan. I don't think Schrick ever responded because I vaguely remember Bert asking me if I had contacts at Schrick when they didn't answer him.

After Bert got the cams from Dinan, he emailed Schrick again. This time he asked if he could get the specs on the cams. Schrick said no specs because they don't make any cams for flat plane engines. (They never said they didn't, just said they don't.) Schrick gave Bert a clue though -- by saying they had no idea what Bert had in his possession. That was a clue, because the cams have a Schrick part number stamped on them. And for all you detectives out there, it's not a standard Schrick part number...so you can stop trying to figure it out.

So, Bert took pictures of the part numbers, and sent them back to Schrick. 24-hours later, Schrick provided complete specs of the cams along with firing order. That's how Bert found out the firing order doesn't match the flat plane firing order programmed in the MSS60 ECU.

In Bert's next email, he asked if they had any other hardware needed for the cams, AND if Schrick could now make the cams since they know the part number. Schrick again responded immediately with a whole slew of part numbers of things like valve springs, intake and exhaust valves, lash caps, etc. But in that same email, they gave a price quote to make more cams, and said they'd be willing.

The key was the part number. Asking them to make flat plane cams wasn't enough. Knowing the part number was the key to unlocking the mystery and getting more cams made.

Quote:
Sorry if this sounds incorrect but would the flat crank setup freeze the Vanos in 1 place now ? and would the 4.4 and flat crank use a vibration damper?
I don't know what you mean, and I probably wouldn't know the answer anyways. I've heard through the grapevine that you need to remove the VANOS for Schrick 292 cams anyways. But I've also heard there's a workaround that allows you to keep VANOS for the 292 cams. To be honest, I have no idea...but I know we'll eventually get to that point and find out.
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      12-20-2018, 10:48 PM   #25
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Nice, original content - loving it. Although to be honest, that video you can mostly hear only gear whine, lol.
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      12-21-2018, 12:15 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpriest View Post
Nice, original content - loving it. Although to be honest, that video you can mostly hear only gear whine, lol.
LOL yes... those straight cut gear noises are to die for

Here's a better video, they used the same V8 in the Z4 GTR if I'm not mistaken.
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      12-21-2018, 12:36 AM   #27
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This is very cool, how mach????
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      12-21-2018, 06:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green-Eggs View Post

What did they say? I think the whole thing boils down to getting the cams. Did they say they could get the project done?
They said they could do anything given money but that they could build a cross plane with the same power output I was shooting for for far less (500 hp, no supercharger)
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      12-21-2018, 07:18 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green-Eggs View Post

The factory MSS60 has flat-plane tables built into it, but I'm told the firing order doesn't match these cams. I'm also told that there are other tables that allow you to change the firing order. So I don't think it will be a problem. If it is, then we rewire the harness to get the correct firing order.
Correct...sort of. The mss60, as with most of the factory ECUs has some configurability as to how many cylinders, banks, lambda banks, cylinder groupings, etc. While there are other options that exist within the calibration area of the DME, none of them match anything useful. However, in the program area, if the executable binary itself is modified, you can alter the details of what the calibration area choices actually choose for engine configuration.

I'd have to think it through more, but I don't think switching the harness around would work as desired. The mss6x DMEs have a Time Processing Unit (TPU) and each cylinder is programmed with a time offset from a zero reference, with that zero reference being Cylinder 1 TDC. With all of the TPU driven functions such as ionic knock sensing, misfire detection, anti-bucking, etc being driven per cylinder, I think it would be asking for more headache to go that route than modify the binary in the first place.

I think what Ian is referring to in the limitations of the stock DME is the absurdity of time needed in fully developing calibration tables on a reflash-based ECU for what is essentially a new engine. The time it would take to disable closed loop fueling, fully develop all the VE tables, fully develop the ignition tables, fully develop the transient fueling, and so on would be immense when it takes so long to make a single change and see the results. On an standalone ECU with live tuning where you can make those changes while loaded on the dyno and immediately see the results, that whole process takes hours. Now, factor in that these DMEs are torque based and once the entire fueling and ignition phases are complete, you would want to go back and develop the torque tables so that the DSC and DCT behave as desired.
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      12-21-2018, 07:50 AM   #30
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This is pure car porn.

Well done. You haaaave to post a video of it running once complete!!

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      12-21-2018, 09:58 AM   #31
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Interesting. Hopefully the work and time invested yield strong results.
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      12-21-2018, 11:15 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green-Eggs View Post
I don't know what you mean, and I probably wouldn't know the answer anyways. I've heard through the grapevine that you need to remove the VANOS for Schrick 292 cams anyways. But I've also heard there's a workaround that allows you to keep VANOS for the 292 cams. To be honest, I have no idea...but I know we'll eventually get to that point and find out.
That is correct.

The 292s with their supporting hardware will keep Vanos functionality. They were puzzled that the word on the street in the US was that 292s lost Vanos.

So now I have the 292s and supporting hardware in a nice box in my living room!!
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      12-21-2018, 11:19 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post

I think what Ian is referring to in the limitations of the stock DME is the absurdity of time needed in fully developing calibration tables on a reflash-based ECU for what is essentially a new engine. The time it would take to disable closed loop fueling, fully develop all the VE tables, fully develop the ignition tables, fully develop the transient fueling, and so on would be immense when it takes so long to make a single change and see the results. On an standalone ECU with live tuning where you can make those changes while loaded on the dyno and immediately see the results, that whole process takes hours. Now, factor in that these DMEs are torque based and once the entire fueling and ignition phases are complete, you would want to go back and develop the torque tables so that the DSC and DCT behave as desired.
Maybe it's just too much time to do these many changes on the OEM ECU, but my experience with an aftermarket ECU driven E9X is that anytime you were not WOT it was bucking around like crazy. Horrible.
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      12-21-2018, 04:31 PM   #34
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I wonder who signed up for this project??
This is droooooooool worthy!

Awesome job Bert and AutoTalent!
.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      12-21-2018, 05:09 PM   #35
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So what is the potential power difference versus a similarly built cross plane engine? Seems like a trumendous enough of effort and money for lightness. If I’m not mistaken, I believe the S65 cross plane actually weighs less than the Shelby 350R flat plane.
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      12-21-2018, 06:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Maybe it's just too much time to do these many changes on the OEM ECU, but my experience with an aftermarket ECU driven E9X is that anytime you were not WOT it was bucking around like crazy. Horrible.
That is 100% in the effort that was put into mapping the standalone properly or the effort that went into writing the code for the torque management if implemented. Was this a DCT car you're referring to?

In the OEM, it's throttle pedal -> torque demand map (fahrwunsch) -> reverse lookup of static torque map (RPM/load) -> reverse lookup RPM/throttle cross section in mm2 -> actuator status -> percent throttle and idle actuators.

The torque manager is a massively comprehensive model for all manner of torque producers and consumers (temp corrected engine friction, driveline friction, gearbox load) as well as lambda torque corrections and interventions.

In effort to develop all of this accurately for the M1 firmware, my goal has been to model the OEM as closely as possible, hence the reason it's nowhere near complete. For some other standalones on this platform, speaking with the programmers, I was able get a few broad answers on how "in detail" this was modeled or if it was "just made to work" and the answer was more of the latter than the former.

There is also a lot of tunability in the torque model parameters (Syvecs from what I hear, no direct experience), so again it's all a function of who did the tuning to make best use of available parameters. I've talked to a few who have used the Syvecs with DCT and their opinion was that it was fine for the track and horrible for the street.

Aside from that, I've talked with Bert a little about this and it may be possible to fully develop the tuning on the engine dyno live with the Motec and if all the tables are configured to mimic the OEM, then transfer the values into the mss60 afterwards.
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      12-22-2018, 09:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GORDON.M3 View Post
Here's a better video, they used the same V8 in the Z4 GTR if I'm not mistaken.
You fixed the only fail in this thread because all I heard was gear whine in the first video

This is very interesting. Any idea of what the expected HP figures are?
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      12-22-2018, 10:09 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
You fixed the only fail in this thread because all I heard was gear whine in the first video

This is very interesting. Any idea of what the expected HP figures are?
BMW Z4 GT3
Manufacturer/Chassis: BMW (Germany)
Engine until 2010 Season: BMW P65B40 4.0L (3999cc) V8 (Motorsport engine based on S65B40 from E9X M3; same basic engine block but with dry-sump lubrication, see attachment)
Engine from 2011 Season: BMW P65B44 4.4L (4361cc) V8 (Motorsport engine based on S65B44 from M3 GTS; dry-sump lubrication). Unlike the flat-plane of the M3 GT, a cross-plane is used instead.
Engine Plant: BMW Foundry in Landshut
Max Power: 480BHP (P65B40), 535BHP (P65B44)
Max RPM: 8750RPM
Series/Spec: Numerous FIA GT series, including Nürburgring 24 Hours
More Info:
http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/cars/bmw-z4-gt3.html
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/race-cars.aspx
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-BMW-Engine-Codes.aspx

Should be similar to these.
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      12-26-2018, 10:17 PM   #39
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Hey im gonna need a new pair of pants. and another roll of tissues over here.....
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      12-27-2018, 06:47 PM   #40
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Dream come true!!!!!

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      12-27-2018, 11:31 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
That is 100% in the effort that was put into mapping the standalone properly or the effort that went into writing the code for the torque management if implemented. Was this a DCT car you're referring to?

In the OEM, it's throttle pedal -> torque demand map (fahrwunsch) -> reverse lookup of static torque map (RPM/load) -> reverse lookup RPM/throttle cross section in mm2 -> actuator status -> percent throttle and idle actuators.

The torque manager is a massively comprehensive model for all manner of torque producers and consumers (temp corrected engine friction, driveline friction, gearbox load) as well as lambda torque corrections and interventions.

In effort to develop all of this accurately for the M1 firmware, my goal has been to model the OEM as closely as possible, hence the reason it's nowhere near complete. For some other standalones on this platform, speaking with the programmers, I was able get a few broad answers on how "in detail" this was modeled or if it was "just made to work" and the answer was more of the latter than the former.

There is also a lot of tunability in the torque model parameters (Syvecs from what I hear, no direct experience), so again it's all a function of who did the tuning to make best use of available parameters. I've talked to a few who have used the Syvecs with DCT and their opinion was that it was fine for the track and horrible for the street.

Aside from that, I've talked with Bert a little about this and it may be possible to fully develop the tuning on the engine dyno live with the Motec and if all the tables are configured to mimic the OEM, then transfer the values into the mss60 afterwards.
Tuning man-hours > hardware cost?
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      12-29-2018, 12:19 AM   #42
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I've talked to AutoTalent and it's $20k in parts alone, plus machine shop time, and labor.
.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      12-29-2018, 12:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
I've talked to AutoTalent and it's $20k in parts alone, plus machine shop time, and labor.
.
Really?!?! I would love to do this to mine eventually... but 20k+ damn... plenty of other things I could justify for that price.
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      12-29-2018, 06:21 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelse92 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
I've talked to AutoTalent and it's $20k in parts alone, plus machine shop time, and labor.
.
Really?!?! I would love to do this to mine eventually... but 20k+ damn... plenty of other things I could justify for that price.
Looking up the cost of rebuilt motors from Carbahn is enlightening. I would expect the flat plane motor to exceed 30K as a 4.6 liter stroker is on the order of 25K. Not to mention the tuning issues.
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