Official S65 Bearing Specification/Clearance Wiki

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

How will the whole arrangement work? Do we get a refund if he can't shed any new light on the topic? I mean, is he going to alleviate what has plagued these high revving motors for a better part of a decade?

That is a reasonable question. The goal here will not specifically be a "solution" rather an investigation. Part of the reason is because it is not at all clear that there is a problem in the first place. Furthermore, if there really is a problem, the empirical data indicate the problem is quite rare. Like I've said in the past, I don't think it is a perfectly black and white issue as many feel it is. Often one can smoothly "turn a dial" in design/engineering between performance and reliability. I suspect here BMW have just turned the dial more in the direction of performance. Again, think dial, not on-off switch. Now all this being said, if the Professor believes that a small change in bearing dimensions or tolerances would significantly or entirely reduce or eliminate failures, I'm sure he would share that with us.

Also, to be clear, no, there won't be any refunds whatsoever. The funds go for the time spent, by a recognized expert.

Also, I really have no idea yet if we can even afford this fellow... He and I just agreed that he should be able to do some meaningful investigation in a couple of days.

[Leonardo629]

thanks, let us know about the arrangement.

Like many here, I've decided to keep my M3 for a long time, it's going to be my "it" N/A car...seeing that eventually we'll all have turbos.

[Killerfish2012]

Clean bear rings at 65K miles:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...post&t=1147977

[swamp2]

Engineering investigation finances summary:

Total: $700

regular guy: $200
BMRLVR: $200
BetterLate: $200
Anonymous by PM: $100
swamp2: depends on project total and amount volunteered

[m3toboot]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Engineering investigation finances summary:

Total: $700

regular guy: $200
BMRLVR: $200
BetterLate: $200
Anonymous by PM: $100
swamp2: depends on project total and amount volunteered

in for another $100

I would like to see an analysis followed by a recommendation for a potential solution to any issues

[ixlr8_m3z]

20160621 update as promised: (late)

I would like to provide an update on my S65 and dealing with BMWNA…
<TLDR> I paid half of the cost for a BMW remanufactured engine with my takeoffs and it was over 13k for my half. I got a 2-year unlimited mileage warrantee and the car has not had any codes in the 5k or 6k miles I have put on it. Some of the 13k was things I had them change while they had something apart…

OK:
After my car was down for around 6 months, we finally got to the point the service advisor just said – if I can talk them into paying 50% will you take it… The BMW price for what PN they had was 26k. Yep, 26k for a remanufactured engine with my takeoffs. (a lot of them anyway) I only paid 31k for the car with 51k miles on it, only to die a few thousand miles later. It was fresh out of CPO for time, also – didn’t matter. With tax, I paid a bit over 13k. They gave me a two-year unlimited mileage warrantee. Thanks for taking my 13k for a known issue that doesn’t exist. I was lucky, mine happened when not many people had seen one. Three BMW dealers said they had never seen a E9X blowup. I walked up on them talking about my car and the alpha tech said I money shifted it. Nope – now I am sure they all know.

I was there when they unboxed my re manufactured engine and put it on the engine stand. It was a piece of art. I tried to find grease stains or big signs of previous use, it almost looked new. Honestly I had a hard time telling it was not new. They must paint them before or after the remanufacture process. The block was stamped 2011 but I have no way of knowing what is in it. There was no helpful paperwork with it..

The Master mechanic did well – Maybe the $150 tip and $100 after he was done and it was perfect I would tip him again technique may have helped a bit. I am sure it didn’t hurt. It never threw any codes when I got it back. They treated it like a new engine and I had to come back in a thousand miles? For an oil change. I have never been back.

Now I have 60k miles on the car but it’s a bummer always sticking in my mind how fast mine went from a ticking noise (I never heard but my wife did) noise to dead previously. I am scared every time I drive it as I went from ticking to boom in like 3min. I am waiting for the Be Bearings to come back in stock. Then I am going to do what any fool would – I am going to SC it. Yep.

The fun part is when it blew up there was only one S65 on ebay as I was early in this rod bearing time frame with an early 08 – so I bought it. Then I got the BMW re manufactured engine as that deal included install and warrantee a few months later. So now I have an extra S65 in the garage I will take a beat down on when I sell it. My wife loves to tell me about buying the car + two motors and add it up for me, and what I could have bought with that money… I am sure the super charger will bring us closer.

I don’t care- I want more power to curb my real desire to buy another crotch rocket. 10.3, 138 quarter mile time/speed stock is a rush one does not forget. (older Yamaha R1) I decided I want to die on a mattress.

I hate you BMWNA. I still drive my 95 M3 15+ years later and floor it every time and it needed a head gasket for years. So I am going to be that guy that sets it up to track it for fun like I did my 95. And likely watch it blowup again. My long game is some class action will finally get through and I will get some money back – that is the lie I tell myself as I research super chargers.

Anyway, I said I would update this post. All the best and thanks to the people that have moved this ball forward.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Low side of 4 months out of CPO, low side of 55k miles - completely stock. At highway speeds the bearing went taking part of the rod with it out a nice hole in the block.

Fast forward a few months - My offer from BMWNA: $2,500 off of a 25k rebuilt unknown year and condition S65 with 2 year unlimited mile coverage on the motor. (would it still have bad bearings? no one is going to know) My service manager (cool guy - knocked 2k+ off in labor as a favor and I believe fully is trying to help me but is limited in his options except to advocate for me) so now I am at around 20k out of pocket for a rebuilt motor and owe 20k+ on the car loan also... I could see some victims were getting new motors (even for no cost) on the web for what appeared to be the same failures except maybe theirs did not ventilate which I think makes mine a great engine to study at BMW - catastrophic failure. No need to drop my oil pan - just pick the pieces out of the stiffing plate where they came to rest and observe the hole in the block... So when BMWNA tells me to get a quote from the dealer and provide it - man I was feeling good thinking it was going to be fully covered like others and a new S65 motor. Issue 1 to a new motor:

The service manager said he only had the part number choice to order rebuilt S65 motors and therefore only quote rebuilt - not new, which went back to BMW NA. How did others get a new motor I wonder. (What am I, Charlie Brown?)

Can anyone here please provide me with the part-number to order a new 2013 S65? Can someone, if its known tell me what the 2013 S65 cost is listed at? Obvious to me, I cant sink 20k+ in the car for what I believe to be no fault of my own on a rebuilt motor. I always warmed it up and kept it on the oil screen and it never even went even 1/2 quart low. Dealer serviced too and I knew the previous owner. They found no helpful codes at the dealer to explain what happened to my motor. (their words)

I have expressed that the offer is way too low but I don't know how this is going to turn out as it's likely back with the regional rep which I think makes these calls and already offered only $2,500 off. I have requested to meet with him at his next rotation through the dealer my car is at. Hopefully that will take place. I hope at that point for it to be a more realistic negotiation as a 32 year straight BMW owner fresh out of CPO, dealer serviced and right at 55k miles 2008 E90 M3 owner. I would rather negotiate from the new S65 motor vs. a rebuilt motor when/if the time comes.

Thanks in advance for any help, part numbers, cost data, contacts or advice as I can not afford a 20k used motor especially when it's clear there is a number of people that have had these failures and I believe I should be made whole like others have. I am trying to stay positive that BMW will take care of me also FWIW.

I do wonder about the safety aspects of failures like mine dumping 7+ quarts of oil in front and around of my rear tires at highway speeds - and what might have happened to my family in the car at the time if it slid out of control. Also I think about the other people in cars that potentially hit the oil slick for who knows how long after a event like mine.

I can not weigh in on the failure rates except to say add me to the list... And add my BMW beat-down offer as a possibility for you if your S65 goes south. In fairness I will update this with any positive news should it occur.

Its hard for me to imagine still driving daily my 1995 M3 I have owned for more than 15 years that needed a head gasket job 4+ years ago (I never did as its so small a leak) and I don't baby it at all vs. 5 or so months with my potentially porcelain doll 08 M3 - and it's dead Jim...

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by ixlr8_m3z

Low side of 4 months out of CPO, low side of 55k miles - completely stock. At highway speeds the bearing went taking part of the rod with it out a nice hole in the block.

Fast forward a few months - My offer from BMWNA: $2,500 off of a 25k rebuilt unknown year and condition S65 with 2 year unlimited mile coverage on the motor. (would it still have bad bearings? no one is going to know) My service manager (cool guy - knocked 2k+ off in labor as a favor and I believe fully is trying to help me but is limited in his options except to advocate for me) so now I am at around 20k out of pocket for a rebuilt motor and owe 20k+ on the car loan also... I could see some victims were getting new motors (even for no cost) on the web for what appeared to be the same failures except maybe theirs did not ventilate which I think makes mine a great engine to study at BMW - catastrophic failure. No need to drop my oil pan - just pick the pieces out of the stiffing plate where they came to rest and observe the hole in the block... So when BMWNA tells me to get a quote from the dealer and provide it - man I was feeling good thinking it was going to be fully covered like others and a new S65 motor. Issue 1 to a new motor:

The service manager said he only had the part number choice to order rebuilt S65 motors and therefore only quote rebuilt - not new, which went back to BMW NA. How did others get a new motor I wonder. (What am I, Charlie Brown?)

Can anyone here please provide me with the part-number to order a new 2013 S65? Can someone, if its known tell me what the 2013 S65 cost is listed at? Obvious to me, I cant sink 20k+ in the car for what I believe to be no fault of my own on a rebuilt motor. I always warmed it up and kept it on the oil screen and it never even went even 1/2 quart low. Dealer serviced too and I knew the previous owner. They found no helpful codes at the dealer to explain what happened to my motor. (their words)

I have expressed that the offer is way too low but I don't know how this is going to turn out as it's likely back with the regional rep which I think makes these calls and already offered only $2,500 off. I have requested to meet with him at his next rotation through the dealer my car is at. Hopefully that will take place. I hope at that point for it to be a more realistic negotiation as a 32 year straight BMW owner fresh out of CPO, dealer serviced and right at 55k miles 2008 E90 M3 owner. I would rather negotiate from the new S65 motor vs. a rebuilt motor when/if the time comes.

Thanks in advance for any help, part numbers, cost data, contacts or advice as I can not afford a 20k used motor especially when it's clear there is a number of people that have had these failures and I believe I should be made whole like others have. I am trying to stay positive that BMW will take care of me also FWIW.

I do wonder about the safety aspects of failures like mine dumping 7+ quarts of oil in front and around of my rear tires at highway speeds - and what might have happened to my family in the car at the time if it slid out of control. Also I think about the other people in cars that potentially hit the oil slick for who knows how long after a event like mine.

I can not weigh in on the failure rates except to say add me to the list... And add my BMW beat-down offer as a possibility for you if your S65 goes south. In fairness I will update this with any positive news should it occur.

Its hard for me to imagine still driving daily my 1995 M3 I have owned for more than 15 years that needed a head gasket job 4+ years ago (I never did as its so small a leak) and I don't baby it at all vs. 5 or so months with my potentially porcelain doll 08 M3 - and it's dead Jim...

Thank You for sharing anything you think might help. Feel free to email me directly if you would like.

That looks like melted plastic to me

[debom3]

I was working on some analysis for this a while ago but got busy and was unable to really finish or come to any conclusions. I got as far as to determine the rod loading, and even ran a couple of FEA studies on the rod at the maximum loads, and a transient study during a full stroke cycle.

My thought was that to analyse the rod bearings, the first thing you must know is the rod loading, and how much force is being transmitted through the rod and into the crank (per cylinder).

Eventually I plan to make a thread with a write up explaining my assumptions and deriving the kinematic equations, but I thought since there is some discussion about paying an engineer to look at the issue I would post up to see if anyone else is interested in working with me/checking my work.

I set up the spreadsheet to have an array of inputs (so that other engines could be analyzed as well) This looks at piston/rod loading at a given speed for one complete cycle.

There are obviously some assumptions, but after opening my ICE design book from college, I think they are somewhat reasonable. I dont think it is too far off....




If any engineers out there wanna geek out and check this out send me a PM and I can email over the spreadsheet. I have been the only guy working on this, so I may have made a mistake. I would also like to run my assumptions by some other engineers to see some thoughts.

Maybe it could help out whoever is looking at the bearings? I would assume the bearing companies have their own internal software but maybe not consultants...

Not saying I can solve the issue, but I had fun thinking about loading of the rods.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by debom3

... I got as far as to determine the rod loading...

My thought was that to analyse the rod bearings, the first thing you must know is the rod loading, and how much force is being transmitted through the rod and into the crank (per cylinder).

Eventually I plan to make a thread with a write up explaining my assumptions and deriving the kinematic equations, but I thought since there is some discussion about paying an engineer to look at the issue I would post up to see if anyone else is interested in working with me/checking my work.
...
If any engineers out there wanna geek out and check this out send me a PM and I can email over the spreadsheet. I have been the only guy working on this, so I may have made a mistake. I would also like to run my assumptions by some other engineers to see some thoughts.
...
Not saying I can solve the issue, but I had fun thinking about loading of the rods.

You've got a start here. I pursued some similar work but when I realized how hard it was to find the critical combustion pressure data I kind of threw in the towel. Indeed, understanding the rod loading is a critical first step toward a investigation of the hydrodynamic lubrication and bearing clearance. I certainly did not go through your effort in detail, but already have some key questions/observations. I think there are some big problems... I'd also be happy to continue by PM as you like.

1. Where did you get the combustion pressure as a function of crank angle? Obviously this is also a function of both rpm and load (the latter is typically assumed to just be full load). This seems to be very difficult information to obtain.
2. Is this essentially a model for a single piston/cylinder, say sort of tilting the V of the block so one bank of pistons are moving vertically? That leads to the related question about the angular reference. Typically the reference point used is that 0° it top dead center just prior to combustion. You clearly used a different standard.
3. There are forces on the rod at the crank bearing end and at the wrist pin end and they are not equal nor even closely related due to the rod wobble motion. Is your "force" the axial force along the length of the rod on the crank bearing end?
4. The overall magnitude shape of your force curve seems like many assumption or some other parts of your analysis are way off. In particular see fig 2.15 and 2.17 here (I referenced this work way earlier in the thread). This guy, for his Masters Thesis, validated his methodology vs. the well validated and sort of industry standard ADAMS kinematic simulation software for a simple single piston system and it correlated absolutely spot on. Notice that there is always the observed peak tensile load (minimums in graphs) in the rod/rod bearing at the top of the exhaust stroke (360° crank angle with the convention I have described). Here exhaust valve(s) are open, there is almost no cylinder pressure load (it is at atmospheric pressure) and the system is just under inertial loading. The piston stops at TDC but also undergoes its peak acceleration (along with the rod itself) creating this peak tensile load. I can not see any behavior even close to this in your graphs. This indicates a significant flaw to me.
5. The reference above in 4 should be a solid foundation for you to verify/correct/improve your method.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by ixlr8_m3z

Low side of 4 months out of CPO, low side of 55k miles - completely stock. At highway speeds the bearing went taking part of the rod with it out a nice hole in the block.

Fast forward a few months - My offer from BMWNA: $2,500 off of a 25k rebuilt unknown year and condition S65 with 2 year unlimited mile coverage on the motor. (would it still have bad bearings? no one is going to know) My service manager (cool guy - knocked 2k+ off in labor as a favor and I believe fully is trying to help me but is limited in his options except to advocate for me) so now I am at around 20k out of pocket for a rebuilt motor and owe 20k+ on the car loan also... I could see some victims were getting new motors (even for no cost) on the web for what appeared to be the same failures except maybe theirs did not ventilate which I think makes mine a great engine to study at BMW - catastrophic failure. No need to drop my oil pan - just pick the pieces out of the stiffing plate where they came to rest and observe the hole in the block... So when BMWNA tells me to get a quote from the dealer and provide it - man I was feeling good thinking it was going to be fully covered like others and a new S65 motor. Issue 1 to a new motor:

The service manager said he only had the part number choice to order rebuilt S65 motors and therefore only quote rebuilt - not new, which went back to BMW NA. How did others get a new motor I wonder. (What am I, Charlie Brown?)

Can anyone here please provide me with the part-number to order a new 2013 S65? Can someone, if its known tell me what the 2013 S65 cost is listed at? Obvious to me, I cant sink 20k+ in the car for what I believe to be no fault of my own on a rebuilt motor. I always warmed it up and kept it on the oil screen and it never even went even 1/2 quart low. Dealer serviced too and I knew the previous owner. They found no helpful codes at the dealer to explain what happened to my motor. (their words)

I have expressed that the offer is way too low but I don't know how this is going to turn out as it's likely back with the regional rep which I think makes these calls and already offered only $2,500 off. I have requested to meet with him at his next rotation through the dealer my car is at. Hopefully that will take place. I hope at that point for it to be a more realistic negotiation as a 32 year straight BMW owner fresh out of CPO, dealer serviced and right at 55k miles 2008 E90 M3 owner. I would rather negotiate from the new S65 motor vs. a rebuilt motor when/if the time comes.

Thanks in advance for any help, part numbers, cost data, contacts or advice as I can not afford a 20k used motor especially when it's clear there is a number of people that have had these failures and I believe I should be made whole like others have. I am trying to stay positive that BMW will take care of me also FWIW.

I do wonder about the safety aspects of failures like mine dumping 7+ quarts of oil in front and around of my rear tires at highway speeds - and what might have happened to my family in the car at the time if it slid out of control. Also I think about the other people in cars that potentially hit the oil slick for who knows how long after a event like mine.

I can not weigh in on the failure rates except to say add me to the list... And add my BMW beat-down offer as a possibility for you if your S65 goes south. In fairness I will update this with any positive news should it occur.

Its hard for me to imagine still driving daily my 1995 M3 I have owned for more than 15 years that needed a head gasket job 4+ years ago (I never did as its so small a leak) and I don't baby it at all vs. 5 or so months with my potentially porcelain doll 08 M3 - and it's dead Jim...


offline email
EZ4ME2@GMAIL.COM

Thank You for sharing anything you think might help. Feel free to email me directly if you would like.

First off just want to say what a bummer. Unfortunately there is no "new" S65 engines. All the engines in BMW's inventory will be re-manufactured, which essentially is a new engine other than the seasoned block. In some respects a seasoned block is better than a new block. Its horror stories like this that make me question keeping my M3 long term.

Dave

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by regular guy

If the clearance on the toilet was too small, and the waste too thick, would the waste go through the hole or would it get stuck trying to go down?

Any connection to rod bearing clearance and oil viscosity is purely coincidental.

It needs M1 0-40 to lubricate its escape..

[pbonsalb]

There will soon be a paid expert to determine the cause to be any one of a number of things or perhaps a combination of those things, and that changing the rod bearings as preventative maintenance and/or running a thinner oil is recommended.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

There will soon be a paid expert to determine the cause to be any one of a number of things or perhaps a combination of those things, and that changing the rod bearings as preventative maintenance and/or running a thinner oil is recommended.

I can't quite fully catch your tone here but it appears at least in part sarcastic. If either of these apply, feel free to not contribute a penny to the effort:

1. You trust a key component at the heart of the S65, which is very sensitive and highly engineered to a group of folks who collectively have no formal engineering experience and none in the area of hydrodynamic lubrication.
2. You don't believe in basic science and engineering.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by ixlr8_m3z

Low side of 4 months out of CPO, low side of 55k miles - completely stock. At highway speeds the bearing went taking part of the rod with it out a nice hole in the block.

Fast forward a few months - My offer from BMWNA: $2,500 off of a 25k rebuilt unknown year and condition S65 with 2 year unlimited mile coverage on the motor. (would it still have bad bearings? no one is going to know) My service manager (cool guy - knocked 2k+ off in labor as a favor and I believe fully is trying to help me but is limited in his options except to advocate for me) so now I am at around 20k out of pocket for a rebuilt motor and owe 20k+ on the car loan also... I could see some victims were getting new motors (even for no cost) on the web for what appeared to be the same failures except maybe theirs did not ventilate which I think makes mine a great engine to study at BMW - catastrophic failure. No need to drop my oil pan - just pick the pieces out of the stiffing plate where they came to rest and observe the hole in the block... So when BMWNA tells me to get a quote from the dealer and provide it - man I was feeling good thinking it was going to be fully covered like others and a new S65 motor. Issue 1 to a new motor:

The service manager said he only had the part number choice to order rebuilt S65 motors and therefore only quote rebuilt - not new, which went back to BMW NA. How did others get a new motor I wonder. (What am I, Charlie Brown?)

Can anyone here please provide me with the part-number to order a new 2013 S65? Can someone, if its known tell me what the 2013 S65 cost is listed at? Obvious to me, I cant sink 20k+ in the car for what I believe to be no fault of my own on a rebuilt motor. I always warmed it up and kept it on the oil screen and it never even went even 1/2 quart low. Dealer serviced too and I knew the previous owner. They found no helpful codes at the dealer to explain what happened to my motor. (their words)

I have expressed that the offer is way too low but I don't know how this is going to turn out as it's likely back with the regional rep which I think makes these calls and already offered only $2,500 off. I have requested to meet with him at his next rotation through the dealer my car is at. Hopefully that will take place. I hope at that point for it to be a more realistic negotiation as a 32 year straight BMW owner fresh out of CPO, dealer serviced and right at 55k miles 2008 E90 M3 owner. I would rather negotiate from the new S65 motor vs. a rebuilt motor when/if the time comes.

Thanks in advance for any help, part numbers, cost data, contacts or advice as I can not afford a 20k used motor especially when it's clear there is a number of people that have had these failures and I believe I should be made whole like others have. I am trying to stay positive that BMW will take care of me also FWIW.

I do wonder about the safety aspects of failures like mine dumping 7+ quarts of oil in front and around of my rear tires at highway speeds - and what might have happened to my family in the car at the time if it slid out of control. Also I think about the other people in cars that potentially hit the oil slick for who knows how long after a event like mine.

I can not weigh in on the failure rates except to say add me to the list... And add my BMW beat-down offer as a possibility for you if your S65 goes south. In fairness I will update this with any positive news should it occur.

Its hard for me to imagine still driving daily my 1995 M3 I have owned for more than 15 years that needed a head gasket job 4+ years ago (I never did as its so small a leak) and I don't baby it at all vs. 5 or so months with my potentially porcelain doll 08 M3 - and it's dead Jim...


offline email
EZ4ME2@GMAIL.COM

Thank You for sharing anything you think might help. Feel free to email me directly if you would like.

Oughhh , that looks to me like pieces from out the stone age , I never saw worse !
Naaah...It's only Internet Hysteria .
On a serious note : Best of luck to find the perfect solution into another S65 .
Damn you BMW !

[BMRLVR]

Figured I'd share these disassembled photos of the S65 scavenge and main oil pumps. The Scavenge oil pump is the Gerotor style and the main pump is a variable displacement Vane pump, as can be seen from the movable cam ring.


Scavenge pump


Main pump

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Oughhh , that looks to me like pieces from out the stone age , I never saw worse !
Naaah...It's only Internet Hysteria .
On a serious note : Best of luck to find the perfect solution into another S65 .
Damn you BMW !

And the fallacy of composition continues...

I don't suppose you've ever noted that the vast majority of posts on any related topic of failures of any part of any car are infinitely more common than those that simply observe no problems, long term? What part of my prior posted bounding estimate of this problem being at most a 1% failure rate have you missed? Did you miss the part of that analysis where I accounted for the fact that not all M3 owners neither participate nor post here?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And the fallacy of composition continues...

I don't suppose you've ever noted that the vast majority of posts on any related topic of failures of any part of any car are infinitely more common than those that simply observe no problems, long term? What part of my prior posted bounding estimate of this problem being at most a 1% failure rate have you missed? Did you miss the part of that analysis where I accounted for the fact that not all M3 owners neither participate nor post here?

I know perfectly of what is going on and more than most know , and I have respect for your knowledge and work ..more than most do .
But in the mean while some or more of us are probably f@cked up , and that you know too .
The design flaw made in the German factory is one thing , but ending up with a black hole becomes very personal for some of us .
More will come , and more than we actually wish .

[chris719]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And the fallacy of composition continues...

I don't suppose you've ever noted that the vast majority of posts on any related topic of failures of any part of any car are infinitely more common than those that simply observe no problems, long term? What part of my prior posted bounding estimate of this problem being at most a 1% failure rate have you missed? Did you miss the part of that analysis where I accounted for the fact that not all M3 owners neither participate nor post here?

And you think 1% is a good thing? I follow a lot of other types of performance cars and it sure feels like one of the highest failure rates since the early water cooled 911 (M96/M97 engine) debacle.

There seem to be more complete engine failures reported for S65 than N54 and N55 on Bimmerpost, which were made in far greater numbers.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I can't quite fully catch your tone here but it appears at least in part sarcastic. If either of these apply, feel free to not contribute a penny to the effort:

1. You trust a key component at the heart of the S65, which is very sensitive and highly engineered to a group of folks who collectively have no formal engineering experience and none in the area of hydrodynamic lubrication.
2. You don't believe in basic science and engineering.

You already admitted you do not expect to get an answer out of your qualified science engineering guy. Just an investigation. And investigations are often inconclusive. I'll save my money.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You already admitted you do not expect to get an answer out of your qualified science engineering guy. Just an investigation. And investigations are often inconclusive. I'll save my money.

I've stated it before and firmly believe that the more one tries to see this as a black and white issue ("an answer"), or right and wrong, or BMW made it perfect or BMW screwed up significantly the more one is likely to be deviating from an appreciation for some very likely subtleties. O course, again not to at all imply that I have the answers here.

So again, no, I don't believe that a couple of days of work by a Professor can trump what BMW has already put into the design. I do though think that a lot of solid insights can be gained and that many of the conclusions shared can confidently taken as fact. Either way, you'll benefit since I'll most likely be able to publish the results.

But since you've already decided it will be a waste and useless, please just treat any results as completely invisible and don't download nor read.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I know perfectly of what is going on and more than most know , and I have respect for your knowledge and work ..more than most do .
But in the mean while some or more of us are probably f@cked up , and that you know too .
The design flaw made in the German factory is one thing , but ending up with a black hole becomes very personal for some of us .
More will come , and more than we actually wish .

I don't quite understand your opening sentence and closing sentences. It sort of sounds like you are alluding to some insider knowledge. If that is the case, I get so bored with such claims which are typically 99% nothing more than BS. Honestly, if you want credibility that you have some great and factual insider insight, share it or stop it. Of course if I've completely misunderstood you please clarify.

Also your "design" and "factory" jargon don't at all seem to match. Perhaps just a language barrier? Design work is done by designers and engineers and is not done in the factory per se. The factory is responsible for QA and assembly and meeting the requirements set by design/engineering.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by chris719

And you think 1% is a good thing? I follow a lot of other types of performance cars and it sure feels like one of the highest failure rates since the early water cooled 911 (M96/M97 engine) debacle.

There seem to be more complete engine failures reported for S65 than N54 and N55 on Bimmerpost, which were made in far greater numbers.

1% was a rough upper estimate. And no 1% is not by any means a great reliability figure for a single type of flaw in a critical major component/subsystem. But it also is not "oh no, the sky is falling and it is raining S65 blocks and bearings" either.

On the surface more failures (at least a higher failure rate) for a bespoke, 8400 rpm redline, 100+ hp/l motor like the S65 as compared to the N54/N55 is absolutely no surprise to me.

Unfortunately, I think modern engine failure anecdotes, i.e. "data" in the internet age, is just not accurate. What was the failure rate, even an estimate for the M96/M97 engine "debacle"?