Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[FogCityM3]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

If you want to find out, you can always email BE Bearings and ask.

Understand this and my comment was directed at Richbot who seemed to imply there was expressed warranty support but essentially didn't know if there was or wasn't.

So it sounds like there is a warranty and if I become interested in your product, I would directly ask a question as I have with so many products I've purchased, but I would suggest if there is an expressed warranty, it is much better to advertise the terms and conditions publicly, as Dinan or BMW does, as this represents a written record of a policy that can stave off potential accusations of differential treatment among customers. It's much cleaner that way and is standard business practice for anything that is sold with a warranty.

Anyway, thank you for your responses and helping inform us better on a potentially viable solution.

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by OM VT3

Only three months ago he's your authoritative and trusted source of information. Even earlier today, you said the Green-Eggs vendor made up the story about your authoritative and trusted UK vendor buying BE Bearings. That was until others started confirming it.

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs
The shop he said was his definitive source of information in the UK buys the BE Bearings multiple sets at a time and directly contradicts that guy's claims about bearing failures.

Ahh the usual RG obfuscation.

The post referred to is one I made to another UK cutter forum member regarding a discussion (which included Reeve) about UK rod bearing failures . Reeve noted a list of BMW models on which he had changed Rod Bearings as preventative maintenance - 2 of which were regarded as near engine failures requiring a crank regrind which assumes them not to be S65 engines.
No doubt there have been a few Rod Bearing failures in the UK but it remains a very rare event.

[FazerBoy]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

No doubt there have been a few Rod Bearing failures in the UK but it remains a very rare event.

I agree with this, although there have been more failures on the s85 engine (which is essentially the same in relation to the bearings).

Since nobody really knows why the bearings fail on the s65 and s85 engines it's hard to say why this might be.

It might be related to the quality of petrol (gas), it might be that tuning is less prevalent here, it might be related to the lower average temperatures than some of the hotter states.

As far as I know nobody has carried out a proper statistical survey so it might simply be that there were far fewer E9x M3s sold here so one would expect far fewer failure events, but that the proportion is about the same as in the U.S.

Since the name Reeve Performance has come up I will say that I am a very happy customer of theirs. They are an extremely busy and successful shop and have no need to drum up business by recommending unnecessary work. They will change the bearings on s65 and s85 engines if requested but they are not pushing customers to do this. I have not had my bearings changed. I have no connection with them but would trust them with my heavily modified car more than almost any other shop in the UK.

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by FazerBoy

I agree with this, although there have been more failures on the s85 engine (which is essentially the same in relation to the bearings).

Indeed...which calls into question the correlation between failure rate and RB clearance.

Originally Posted by FazerBoy

so it might simply be that there were far fewer E9x M3s sold here so one would expect far fewer failure events, but that the proportion is about the same as in the U.S.

IIRC the UK S65 M3 market is between 20 to 25% of the USA market which means that we should see that proportion of failures - but we don't see anything like that rate.

[FazerBoy]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Indeed...which calls into question the correlation between failure rate and RB clearance.

Not necessarily. The s85 was released before the s65 so if there is a weak point one would expect more failures over time and more s85s to have been affected.

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by FazerBoy

Not necessarily. The s85 was released before the s65 so if there is a weak point one would expect more failures over time and more s85s to have been affected.

True but the overall impression seems to be than the S85 suffers far more from RB failure than the S65 taking into account the length of service.
You would also expect the rate of S65 failure to be increasing significantly with time as cars get older and have higher mileages but this doesn't seem to be the case either.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Understand this and my comment was directed at Richbot who seemed to imply there was expressed warranty support but essentially didn't know if there was or wasn't.

So it sounds like there is a warranty and if I become interested in your product, I would directly ask a question as I have with so many products I've purchased, but I would suggest if there is an expressed warranty, it is much better to advertise the terms and conditions publicly, as Dinan or BMW does, as this represents a written record of a policy that can stave off potential accusations of differential treatment among customers. It's much cleaner that way and is standard business practice for anything that is sold with a warranty.

Anyway, thank you for your responses and helping inform us better on a potentially viable solution.

Unfortunately this is a commonly expressed wish for certainty where none is possible.

I have no experience with Dinan but BMW's service after the sale under warranty results in Differential treatment for different customers in the same situation all. The. Time. Partially because each case is different and partially because BMW has abrogated its responsibility for its products to a bunch of independent shops who get to slap the BMW name on their buildings.

Be May sell 5000 sets of these things or 50 but in any event it's a small operation with the ability to interact individually. If I were them I would not promise to cover a thing unless granted unfettered access to any failed engine at the customer's cost. They probably have a better policy than that, but people suck, and want free shit, and I am glad I don't have to deal with it myself

[FogCityM3]

Fair enough...too bad and unsurprising I guess.

Originally Posted by Richbot

Unfortunately this is a commonly expressed wish for certainty where none is possible.

I have no experience with Dinan but BMW's service after the sale under warranty results in Differential treatment for different customers in the same situation all. The. Time. Partially because each case is different and partially because BMW has abrogated its responsibility for its products to a bunch of independent shops who get to slap the BMW name on their buildings.

Be May sell 5000 sets of these things or 50 but in any event it's a small operation with the ability to interact individually. If I were them I would not promise to cover a thing unless granted unfettered access to any failed engine at the customer's cost. They probably have a better policy than that, but people suck, and want free shit, and I am glad I don't have to deal with it myself

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Be May sell 5000 sets of these things or 50 but in any event it's a small operation with the ability to interact individually. If I were them I would not promise to cover a thing unless granted unfettered access to any failed engine at the customer's cost. They probably have a better policy than that, but people suck, and want free shit, and I am glad I don't have to deal with it myself

You have no idea how close to the head of the nail you hit.

The BE Bearings warranty has always been advertised as the same warranty offered by Clevite, the manufacturer. That warranty covers the bearings themselves, and not any damage. But a situation arose recently that motivated BE Bearings to reevaluate that warranty and see if it made sense to go above and beyond what they had publicly stated. The BE partners decided, should an actual failure be attributed to the BE Bearings themselves, that BE would be willing to rebuild the engine at their Los Angeles distributor's shop, plus the replacement costs of all bearings (rods and mains) of any brand chosen by the car's owner. But proving an engine failure is caused by the bearing and nothing else isn't an easy job and requires a lot of work, and as Richbot says, direct access to the engine itself.

Here's why BE Bearings got motivated to reevaluate their warranty. This story should dispel any assumptions that car owners are all coming to the forums in good faith with intimate knowledge about the problems with their own car.

BE recently received an email that claimed the owner's engine suffered a catastrophic loss, and was diagnosed by his shop as rod bearing failure due to BE Bearings. The owner promised his silence in exchange for a free engine. BE Bearings took the following and actions immediately:

1. Notified the owner they would not offer any help at the end of a gun or from anything that sounded remotely like blackmail.
2. BE asked for pictures of all bearings, front and back. Pictures of the block. Pictures of every rod bolt, and all connecting rods and caps.
3. Provide BE an oil sample.
4. Provide proof that crankshaft journals and clearances were measured before bearing installation, either by bore gauges or Plastigage. Without these measurements and/or proof they occurred (detailed labor receipt, etc.), there can be no further discussion about warranty repair.
5. Grant BE direct access to the engine itself to obtain measurements, photographs, and take the damaged parts to experts for analysis. Since the engine was in the Los Angeles area, that meant granting BE access to the shop where the engine was disassembled.
6. Root cause would be determined by two independent race engine builders with multiple world championships under their belts, plus the engine builder at Auto Talent in Los Angeles, CA.
7. If oil analysis showed a breakdown of bearing material, clearances were properly measured during bearing installation, and two of three experts determined the rod bearings themselves had failed, then BE was prepared to make the above warranty offer.

So here's how it played out. Bert took a day off work and drove 400 miles to the shop with the engine. The shop owner gave more details that the car owner hadn't previously mentioned.

1. The car was supercharged.
2. The failure occurred while on the race track.
3. The shop owner advised the car owner the failure was NOT caused by BE Bearings.
4. The engine seized and did not rotate, the rods were all still connected, did not break, and did not seize on the crankshaft.
5. #1 main bearing was blue.

Bert and the shop owner worked together to partially disassemble a few of the connecting rods and further inspect the damage. Since the crankshaft was seized on the main bearing, it was impossible to rotate the engine to obtain access to all connecting rod journals. Rods #1, #7, and #8 were disassembled. Photos were taken, and an oil sample was provided. The #1 rod was blue, but still intact and held by the BE-ARP rod bolts; the rod bearing was missing. #7 rod bearings had some particle streaks showing contamination in the oil supply itself. #8 rod bearing was virtually clean. Very clear that the farther away from #1 main bearing you went, fewer particles were in the oil stream to damage the connecting rod bearings.

The photos and damage descriptions were sent to both engine experts and the oil sample was sent to Blackstone. Both engine experts were unanimous in their findings that the #1 main had seized (this is why the crank wouldn't rotate), and the metallic particles from the damaged #1 main bearing caused the #1 rod bearing to disintegrate. Both engine builders offered the same explanation that this is a classic main bearing failure when the next two connecting rod bearings are destroyed because of it. The root caused showed the main bearing had failed, not the BE Bearings.

BE notified the owner of their findings, and that was the end of the discussion.

So what's the moral to the story here? There's a few:

1. BE was prepared to go above and beyond a parts-only warranty if it could be proven by the experts that the bearings themselves had caused the failure.
2. BE would need direct access to the engine itself to inspect, measure, and take photos.
3. BE has the experts and knowledge to figure out what really happened and in this case did all of it at their expense.
4. BE's experts would make the failure determination, not the car owner's shop.
5. BE will take a methodical approach, and will refuse to cooperate if demands are made at the end of a gun.
6. BE may be a small operation, but was prepared to go far beyond what most people expected.
7. Not all car owners have good intentions when $20,000 out of their pocket is on the line.

Believe me when I say this: this isn't even 1/2 the story. I tried to make it as short as possible to get the main points across. The point Richbot makes is that warranty is sometimes situational. Since engine wear and driving habits affect the wear of the bearings sold by BE, it's unavoidable that the warranty offer in this case, or in future cases could be situation, and not the same as the situation above (e.g. owner can't ship an engine to California for repair, etc.).

[///M Power-Belgium]

Here we go again ! => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1283830

I'm lost in words for the mess !

[Solo_M_Tech]

My 2009 E90 with 58k miles just started ticking today. No rattle noise but a consistent ticking at idle and slightly off idle.

[Doc Oc]

I just became intimately familiar with that tick unfortunately. Started about 10 miles before the end. The bearing tick in my engine was not audible when cold. As soon as it was warm it was unmistakable. Sounded kind of like an exhaust leak or a loud lifter tick and it followed rpm perfectly. Correspondingly engine oil temps were above normal at hwy speeds. Post a video if you can.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I just became intimately familiar with that tick unfortunately. Started about 10 miles before the end. The bearing tick in my engine was not audible when cold. As soon as it was warm it was unmistakable. Sounded kind of like an exhaust leak or a loud lifter tick and it followed rpm perfectly. Correspondingly engine oil temps were above normal at hwy speeds. Post a video if you can.

Here is the video and thread => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1283830

[///M Power-Belgium]

He spun 2 bearings and ruined the crankshaft => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1252339

[kb9uwu]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Here we go again ! => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1283830

I'm lost in words for the mess !

Maybe wait until it's confirmed bearings? I'm worried about your health and well being, Mr. Belgium

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by kb9uwu

Maybe wait until it's confirmed bearings? I'm worried about your health and well being, Mr. Belgium

Thank you ! No worries for me my friend I'm feeling good and I'm in top shape as usual
This is "not" only by me...I receive PM's and mails from all over the world about the S65 disaster..
It's more like ...That I follow the whole mess for the last years , and I find it absolutely "NOT" normal for the S65 and S85 engines .
I'm the owner of a S65 as well , and see all the BF's...it's really unbelievable !

[anerbe]

Quick question guys -

Are the main bearings also made of lead and copper? Or is just the earlier year rod bearings?

[bkdore]

Originally Posted by anerbe

Are the main bearings also made of lead and copper? Or is just the earlier year rod bearings?

Depends on the year. See:

http://wiki-diy.com/index.php/Engine...5_Rod_Bearings

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

Here's some advice: don't talk about things you don't know anything about, especially about somebody else's business. If you wanted to know, you could have always sent an email to BE Bearings to ask. Or you could find the guy with the blown motor you put so much faith in and ask him what discussions he had with BE Bearings, then ask him how it turned out. Once you collect some actual facts, THEN come here and report your findings. If you actually did some due diligence, you'd find out all of your assumptions and statements have been false.

Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong and won't be the last. Since you are most likely associated with BE Bearings why don't you simply provide us with your written warranty policy? Once I see that posted publicly, I'll admit I was wrong about "no bearing supplier...". However, I'd still bet that the other two aftermarket choices have ABSOLUTELY no warranty on rod bearings and related phenomena.

*EDIT* - Just caught up fully on the thread. BE seem to have a very sensible and generous warranty policy. Fantastic. I was wrong.
Obviously swapped rod bearings won't matter too much if problems are also on the mains...

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

Yet you pop up to say "I told you so" within 24-hours of a guy who incorrectly claimed he has a bearing failure with BE Bearings, but claim that's just a coincidence. Regardless, that claim turned out to be false. So hold your enthusiasm for the next time.

It seems pretty clear that there have been failures from 2 of the 3 aftermarket bearing suppliers. There was general discussion trying to determine who they could be due to all of the "hush hush". So the above is not correct. Exactly what I said was,

Originally Posted by swamp2

I think we are close to being able to conclude that both WPC and VAC bearings have failed but ///M Power-Belgium was referring to two different people with failures and it seems he only gave time tables for one of them. He also noted the the bearings were from different suppliers. I think only if we had time tables for BOTH failures could be conclude that both VAC and WPC treated bearings have failed. That of course, would be absolutely not be unexpected to me.

I sounded the rallying warning cry when these "solutions" came to the market with NO TESTING. Purely opportunistic sales folks/companies barely, if at all better than snake oil salesmen...

[CHE///MIST3]

Anyone want a back-up S65 motor? Awesome price, new rod bearings (although the old ones were fine and probably sized just right from factory) and free shipping. Wish I had the extra cash to purchase this baby.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1244366

GM

[deansbimmer]

I'm not immediately inclined to put much stock into someones claim that their new "upgraded" rod bearings failed, until I inspected the engine and knew the history of exactly how the bearings were installed. As said above, "people suck", and yes they seem to always want free stuff. I really appreciate the way BE is doing business and am only using their bearings for my jobs now.

Case in point as to why I don't trust what owners say about their "rebuilt" engines.... In this (extreme) case, I got this engine in a 2011 with 32600 miles on the clock. It was "rebuilt" per the owner by a "professional" shop and "just stopped working". This engine is by far the worst case of assembly malpractice and downright abuse. The shop that did the work should have no business working on engines at all. Only parts salvageable were the oil pan and the valve covers.

The block was sealed with Indian Gasket Sealer. It looks like the shop installed whatever main and rod bearings were lying around in their bin that probably just looked OK. Mixed tin bearings with lead bearings, one rod had a tin upper bearing and a lead lower bearing in the SAME JOURNAL.





Inside, they had "honed" two cylinders with stones and these were the "finished" bores, as seen on my disassembly (see left cylinder):


They Ground off the skirt of those two pistons for clearance instead of using the correct pistons


The resulting misbalance in the rotating assembly caused severe vibrations and harmonics, breaking the crankshaft and one timing chain. The VANOS bolts were also loose, causing the Recta-Rings to grind the inside of the VANOS bores, sending shavings throughought and ruining the cams and adjusters. Additionally, main bearing 1 failed completely, cracking the block and rendering it un-salvageable.

[Richbot]

Ho Lee Fuk I assume that's the same engine from the thread about the DCT