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      12-10-2017, 03:52 AM   #1
skiv23
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Question Gintani N/A tune and customer service review

So, here we go. It is a long post but it's worth reading if you are about to get that tune.

I was looking for an option to get a tune for my 2008 M3. I decided that if I had got one then it would be one of the ESS, BPM, Gintani or Evolve, but after reading some posts on forums I decided to go with updated OEM firmware (241e) and DCT GTS only. Few months later instagram suggested me one guy called c63nyc with ridiculously fast N/A M3 that had also an amazing burble and flames running Gintani tune. After having burble on my and friend’s 335s I was excited to get one. At that time only last 3 mentioned companies had this option. I couldn’t find any good video of Evolve burble and there were only 2 left. I wrote an email to Mike and Gintani asking if this feature can be sold separately from their tune. Both said no and I had to buy the tune. But Mike also mentioned that the car might have slight lurching upon deceleration. So I decided that the tune wasn’t worth it’s money.

Time flew by and Mike’s topic appeared with some tune explanation or whatever (it was deleted) and some arguments from Gintani. Few weeks later I found out that Gintani has an extremely hot group buy with a price that is worth the tune (in my opinion) and I was in. They had an amazing customer service at that point, every question was answered that day or early morning next day (timezone difference is huge). They also put a price on a customs -ish paper on the parcel to what I had asked to be there.

Later there was another topic by some guy who went from BPM to Gintani and couldn’t be more happier. There were some hot discussions, Mike turned up with his thoughts about burble and Gintani’s tune. The Gintani turned up with their explanation of how it works, etc. There were also some customers except topic starter that were also happy with their tune for a long time and different cars. This was only strengthening my thoughts about Gintani’s tune.

The cable arrived, Gintani sent me files (with and without burble, btw) and an instruction. I followed it, updated to 241e (although I had one, but to make sure I follow the guide), and then loaded the tune with burble. I have to say that I decided NOT to go full catless and have secondary HFC because I didn’t like the sound on a different X-pipe and had only primaries deleted WITH secondary o2 delete (both hard- and software). My friend and I went for a test. My friend noticed that the power was quite linear starting from low RPM (I will get back to it later). We found a nice straight road and did some burble runs inside and outside. I must admit the burble is so damn cool. On one of the runs when my friend was driving the car and I was standing outside I couldn’t believe my eyes because I saw a small backfire on downshift but on the following downshift there were huge flames coming out of exhaust. I couldn’t be happier because Alex and Nick told me that there’s no chance it would shoot flames with secondary cats.

Next morning I had a CEL (o2 sensors - heating), not an issue, I think Gintani can fix that. Driving happy all day I noticed a weird sound after 7k RPM and higher. I took my friend for a ride. He also noticed it but thought this was no big deal. I wrote an email to Gintani asking if they can fix the CEL and explaining that I have o2’s removed and also asking about the sound on the video (although video can’t really tell the difference). This was October 26.

4 days later I thought that they might’ve missed my message and wrote again. Guys were very surprised that I don’t have those (dot). Meanwhile I decided to have some VBox runs to see the difference. My best 100-200 kmph is 9.8s at +8C and ~75% humidity. It was +8C and high humidity the day I had my runs with the tune and I ran 10s. I wrote an extra email asking if CEL might affect the power somehow and would humidity affect N/A car this much. The answer was yes, it can and that I can’t remove o2s without software update. I told them that I had this fixed on my stock firmware asking if they can update their files also. Nick told that he would talk to Alex to create a file, but Alex is out of town and will be there next week. Ok, no issues, appreciated.

3 days later we had the same conditions as the day I had had the best 100-200 run and the time was 9.8… I asked my friend to come. He has 2013 M3, catless X pipe (with CEL ) and nothing more, stock. We had VBox runs and head-to-head runs, all the same. I asked Gintani what can be the issue that my car isn’t any faster than stock. 3 days later I had to bump again. Nick said that he doesn’t know what to tell me, I should be gaining power, not losing or staying the same and wondered if I followed the guide properly. Also told me that if I want to test, I can load 241e again and that would be stock.
I flashed back to stock and the time was the same 9.8s. Nick said that he doesn’t understand what going on and asked if I had burble and other tune-features in case the tune is not flashed properly. But all of those were working just fine. I was asked when I had my sparks replaced (10k km). I reminded about having files updated.

Later that day I remembered that there was an issue with having my stock DME updated with o2 removal. Someone said there was a tune box like a JB4. I opened the ECU box and my friend found that there’s something covered in non OEM tape. 3 wires and 1 shut-off wire. I took photos and left it there. I also noted pin numbers in order to find out what it is. I couldn’t find any pinout for MSS60, but there was a topic by some guy asking for it and Mike Benvo told him that he had it (2013, quite long ago). I sent photos and info to Gintani asking for pinout. I also took my chance and sent a PM to Mike if he still has the pinout and what those can be.

Days passed, I found out that this could be o2 faker. Not the right word, no info on google. Sleepless night and I found out that this is called o2 sim (or simulator). Almost instantly I found an online shop with the same thing that I have but for N54. Doing some googling I could finally find a document of how to install it (it’s called a BMS DPFIX). There was also a guide for a S65. I told guys that I found how to remove this thing. They told me to remove it and drive around to see what error codes I get in order to know what to shut. Weird right? But ok, no issues. Mike also answered what those pins are and suggested me to remove that thing. (Thanks Mike Benvo )

November 20. It’s been 2.5 days since I removed the DPFIX and the only codes I had - o2 heating. Nov 22 - bump. They said they’re closed for holidays but they’ll get me something by friday. That’s ok. Did a few bumps later - nothing. Nov 30 - I bumped to instagram. Nick (I believe) said that Alex was finishing up everyone’s files (I believe they had another group buy or whatever) and Nick would be sending them out. Dec 7 - I wrote short “Guys?” and it was read, no answer.

I believe this is the end of our story, I will have my exhaust redone in order to put o2s back, hope this will help.

Here are the summaries:
+ car burbles like a monster with nice flames

- isn’t faster than it was before or stock and they can’t do anything about it. I wanted to suggest some dyno runs with TeamViewer maybe, but what’s the point.
- weird sound after 7k rpm. On stock file it MUCH quieter.
- customer support. Some other guys on forums said its 5/5. I guess it is when there are no issues.
- some issues with downshifts. It happens from time to time, not constant, couldn’t record it. In short - dash shows lower gear but the car is lurching as hell and RMP jump as if I had a 2 step. Didn’t mention this to Gintani because I know what answer would be.
- remember linear power from lower RPMs? It’s not. It goes smooth to some point then hits you in the back as if the clutch was fully engaged.
- 5 weeks to get that file updated that can be done in ~2h? Yet not even done.

After all that I’m not even sure if it’s safe to run this tune. Probably better to have this money saved for a supercharger.

P.S. I also wrote a message to a guy who was in a group buy with me and had his review here too asking if he had any vbox runs to see the difference, but he didn’t reply to me either although being online lately :thinking: FL_M3

UPD: CEL issue has been fixed by putting o2's back.

Last edited by skiv23; 12-20-2017 at 02:15 AM..
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      12-11-2017, 07:51 AM   #2
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AlexM@Gintani any thoughts?
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      12-11-2017, 11:20 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
AlexM@Gintani any thoughts?
His last activity is 08-22-2014, I don't think he would answer. I believe I should've mentioned sales@gintani, but I didn't want to. Sort of pointless.
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      12-11-2017, 11:50 AM   #4
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      12-11-2017, 09:14 PM   #5
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Good to know, stay away from this
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      12-13-2017, 12:38 PM   #6
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I figured all n/a tunes are about the same. I went with bpm for the customer service alone. Mike made it a breeze
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      12-20-2017, 02:14 AM   #7
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CEL issue has been fixed by putting o2's back.
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      07-28-2018, 09:24 AM   #8
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So the tune doesn't even make the car run faster?
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      07-28-2018, 10:14 AM   #9
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I too have the Gintani Burble Tune (~10k miles on tune) Car is 2008 E92 M3. I am extremely happy with it. I have not noticed any issues with deceleration or down shifts. As far as customer service goes, I usually deal with Nick and he has been very helpful.
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      07-28-2018, 10:38 AM   #10
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I don't know the Gintani guys or their product but this is why I chose the Alex AlpineMSS tune; customer service. Alex is active, I can text him, he's quick and responsive. Customer service is just as important as the product, especially when dealing w/ a tune.
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      07-28-2018, 11:14 AM   #11
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You removed your O2 sensors entirely???? That is a huge problem if so. Can't imagine a car would even run out of limp mode with all O2 sensors gone. If I'm hearing you correctly, reinstall brand new O2 sensors as they often get damaged by removal in a way you can't even see it. Then clear adaptations. Then you should be good
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      07-28-2018, 11:22 AM   #12
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Gintani customer service isn't the best in terms of getting back to you but It's not that bad if you call them instead of e-mailing I've learned. I never had problems with any of Gintani's tunes. I went from BPM to Gintani because BPM burble tune lurches and doesn't pop as much as Gintani's. This isn't to knock BPM as I had their stage 2 tune for 10k miles without problems. (Besides injector 5 going bad. Shop told me other e92M3 cars with the BPM tune had bad injector 5. Might just be a coincidence.) I have my DCT tuned by Gintani, Stage 2 tune & burble tune, and I also have the most recent extreme burble tune. The extreme burble tune is what it states, extreme. Flames come out bigger then before and more frequently. You can also shoot flames while the car is still by revving. My only complaint is that its not that daily-able. My car lurches with the extreme burble tune when I downshift. Alex told me this is because of how extreme the tune is. The regular burble tune is 100% daily-able though. About to hit 10k miles with various Gintani tunes at 70k miles on the car. I pop, shoot flames regularly and my stock o2's are fine. I'm expecting them to wear out a lot faster though but I don't mind swapping them myself. It's not that hard of a task.
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      07-28-2018, 01:14 PM   #13
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02 issue is not Gintani's fault.
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      07-28-2018, 06:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yidgyi View Post
Gintani customer service isn't the best in terms of getting back to you but It's not that bad if you call them instead of e-mailing I've learned. I never had problems with any of Gintani's tunes. I went from BPM to Gintani because BPM burble tune lurches and doesn't pop as much as Gintani's. This isn't to knock BPM as I had their stage 2 tune for 10k miles without problems. (Besides injector 5 going bad. Shop told me other e92M3 cars with the BPM tune had bad injector 5. Might just be a coincidence.) I have my DCT tuned by Gintani, Stage 2 tune & burble tune, and I also have the most recent extreme burble tune. The extreme burble tune is what it states, extreme. Flames come out bigger then before and more frequently. You can also shoot flames while the car is still by revving. My only complaint is that its not that daily-able. My car lurches with the extreme burble tune when I downshift. Alex told me this is because of how extreme the tune is. The regular burble tune is 100% daily-able though. About to hit 10k miles with various Gintani tunes at 70k miles on the car. I pop, shoot flames regularly and my stock o2's are fine. I'm expecting them to wear out a lot faster though but I don't mind swapping them myself. It's not that hard of a task.
This +1

In my life I have learned that shops and even random businesses are more likely to respond and give you an answer good or bad if you call them.

You are less likely to record the conversation, which I believe is illegal without letting all parties know without court order anyway.

If they respond good/bad via email/chat/IM, you have a paper trail that you can edit to make them look as bad as you want.

Like make a thread on the most popular M3 forum with the title "Gintati N/A tune and customer service review"
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      07-29-2018, 12:44 AM   #15
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FYI, from a buddy of mine who tunes the V8 and V10, STAY AWAY FROM THE BURBLE. He mentioned the wear that it causes on the engine is not worth it.
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      07-29-2018, 04:21 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thiswhitem3 View Post
So the tune doesn't even make the car run faster?
No, at least in my case. My car is having the same VBox times running both 241e and tune. Compared to stock '13 decat no tune as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSY View Post
You removed your O2 sensors entirely???? That is a huge problem if so. Can't imagine a car would even run out of limp mode with all O2 sensors gone. If I'm hearing you correctly, reinstall brand new O2 sensors as they often get damaged by removal in a way you can't even see it. Then clear adaptations. Then you should be good
And what is the problem exactly? As far as I know, secondaries only check that cats are still in place and still efficient. A friend of mine has been driving the car ('13 no tune mentioned above, secondary o2s removed entirely) since last summer with no issues except the CEL. Yet he is 0.1s faster than any other local m3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanMan View Post
FYI, from a buddy of mine who tunes the V8 and V10, STAY AWAY FROM THE BURBLE. He mentioned the wear that it causes on the engine is not worth it.
Did he also mention what wear it causes exactly? The burble itself is just fuel firing in the exhaust. You can't hear anything unless it's (exhaust) warmed up.
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      07-30-2018, 10:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiv23 View Post
No, at least in my case. My car is having the same VBox times running both 241e and tune. Compared to stock '13 decat no tune as well.


And what is the problem exactly? As far as I know, secondaries only check that cats are still in place and still efficient. A friend of mine has been driving the car ('13 no tune mentioned above, secondary o2s removed entirely) since last summer with no issues except the CEL. Yet he is 0.1s faster than any other local m3.


Did he also mention what wear it causes exactly? The burble itself is just fuel firing in the exhaust. You can't hear anything unless it's (exhaust) warmed up.
Man, just bought this tune and installed today, I noticed the throttle was much more responsive and giving it less gas definitely makes the car move much more compared to stock. Do you think the tune is worth keeping in the long run? I like how my car is less "jerky" when coming to a stop and accelerating. Getting mixed reviews
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      07-31-2018, 01:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thiswhitem3 View Post
Man, just bought this tune and installed today, I noticed the throttle was much more responsive and giving it less gas definitely makes the car move much more compared to stock. Do you think the tune is worth keeping in the long run? I like how my car is less "jerky" when coming to a stop and accelerating. Getting mixed reviews
I noticed that as well, but it is also mentioned on their website. I think this is what makes people think the car is faster
Long run - probably, i'm running it without issues so far.
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      08-02-2018, 03:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiv23 View Post
I noticed that as well, but it is also mentioned on their website. I think this is what makes people think the car is faster
Long run - probably, i'm running it without issues so far.
so far happy with it, keep us updated
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      08-02-2018, 08:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yidgyi View Post
Gintani customer service isn't the best in terms of getting back to you but It's not that bad if you call them instead of e-mailing I've learned. I never had problems with any of Gintani's tunes. I went from BPM to Gintani because BPM burble tune lurches and doesn't pop as much as Gintani's. This isn't to knock BPM as I had their stage 2 tune for 10k miles without problems. (Besides injector 5 going bad. Shop told me other e92M3 cars with the BPM tune had bad injector 5. Might just be a coincidence.) I have my DCT tuned by Gintani, Stage 2 tune & burble tune, and I also have the most recent extreme burble tune. The extreme burble tune is what it states, extreme. Flames come out bigger then before and more frequently. You can also shoot flames while the car is still by revving. My only complaint is that its not that daily-able. My car lurches with the extreme burble tune when I downshift. Alex told me this is because of how extreme the tune is. The regular burble tune is 100% daily-able though. About to hit 10k miles with various Gintani tunes at 70k miles on the car. I pop, shoot flames regularly and my stock o2's are fine. I'm expecting them to wear out a lot faster though but I don't mind swapping them myself. It's not that hard of a task.
We've revised the burble software and there is no lurching anymore - this was essentially reinstating fueling to stop the car from burbling for extended periods. Now we offer the burbles with varying intensity and customers can also pick the RPM ranges that they would like it to occur at. We haven't added this to our site yet like it is with the F8x M, but will at our new site launch. That said, Burbles on the E9x platform are an afterthought - the control unit is not specifically designed for it as it is on all of the F series models, so the implementation will never be as good/controllable as it is on the F Chassis.

We've also had some customers request shooting flames, and this works well aside from being not recommended for various reasons. Oxygen sensors can degrade over time (that is, become less responsive and/or less accurate), and still be considered not 'faulty'.

There is nothing in the tune that could ever cause a specific injector to go bad - there are no changes made specifically to individual injector settings. If it was software related, all injectors would exhibit the same issue. There are thousands of customers running our E9x software across the world for nearly ten years, if there was a software issue with injector(s), we would definitely know about it
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      08-02-2018, 10:25 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPMSport View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yidgyi View Post
Gintani customer service isn't the best in terms of getting back to you but It's not that bad if you call them instead of e-mailing I've learned. I never had problems with any of Gintani's tunes. I went from BPM to Gintani because BPM burble tune lurches and doesn't pop as much as Gintani's. This isn't to knock BPM as I had their stage 2 tune for 10k miles without problems. (Besides injector 5 going bad. Shop told me other e92M3 cars with the BPM tune had bad injector 5. Might just be a coincidence.) I have my DCT tuned by Gintani, Stage 2 tune & burble tune, and I also have the most recent extreme burble tune. The extreme burble tune is what it states, extreme. Flames come out bigger then before and more frequently. You can also shoot flames while the car is still by revving. My only complaint is that its not that daily-able. My car lurches with the extreme burble tune when I downshift. Alex told me this is because of how extreme the tune is. The regular burble tune is 100% daily-able though. About to hit 10k miles with various Gintani tunes at 70k miles on the car. I pop, shoot flames regularly and my stock o2's are fine. I'm expecting them to wear out a lot faster though but I don't mind swapping them myself. It's not that hard of a task.
We've revised the burble software and there is no lurching anymore - this was essentially reinstating fueling to stop the car from burbling for extended periods. Now we offer the burbles with varying intensity and customers can also pick the RPM ranges that they would like it to occur at. We haven't added this to our site yet like it is with the F8x M, but will at our new site launch. That said, Burbles on the E9x platform are an afterthought - the control unit is not specifically designed for it as it is on all of the F series models, so the implementation will never be as good/controllable as it is on the F Chassis.

We've also had some customers request shooting flames, and this works well aside from being not recommended for various reasons. Oxygen sensors can degrade over time (that is, become less responsive and/or less accurate), and still be considered not 'faulty'.

There is nothing in the tune that could ever cause a specific injector to go bad - there are no changes made specifically to individual injector settings. If it was software related, all injectors would exhibit the same issue. There are thousands of customers running our E9x software across the world for nearly ten years, if there was a software issue with injector(s), we would definitely know about it
Any other reasons why burble tune is not good for S65? Is it possible to expand this topic with a more technical info? Also would love to hear your opinion about E85 tune. Some reputable tuners say that they dont like it on S65 NA because "S65 already flows well" and there is nothing to be gained there just minor 10hp if lucky.
Thank you
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      08-02-2018, 10:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiv23 View Post
Did he also mention what wear it causes exactly? The burble itself is just fuel firing in the exhaust. You can't hear anything unless it's (exhaust) warmed up.
With respect to burble/pop tunes, it ends up that there is extra fuel in the cylinder that isn't burned in the combustion cycle, which can blow by the piston, mess up the rings and into the oil. While the amount is likely minuscule, in a high-revving high 12:1 CR race engine with potential rod bearing issues, not a risk I would want to take. Not to mention the backfire may be reducing optimal exhaust flow and scavenging (and is probably leaving a little power on the table). This engine has a tough time enough hitting timing targets as it is with 91 (let alone 93) octane, so introducing any small variable that disrupts optimal combustion or has the potential of degrading the oil film doesn't seem like the greatest idea to me, then again I want this puppy to last a long, long time and try to minimize all potentially adverse variables.
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