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      05-14-2014, 09:33 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
The article is not just about GE. What I said is absolutely true. You didn't read far enough. From the article:

"GE is not alone in moving the manufacture of many of its products back to the U.S. The transformation under way at Appliance Park is mirrored in dozens of other places, with Whirlpool bringing mixer-making back from China to Ohio, Otis bringing elevator production back from Mexico to South Carolina, even Wham-O bringing Frisbee-molding back from China to California. The Boston Company published a paper in May on ways for investors to capitalize on the U.S. factory revival. ISI Group, an investment-research company, put out a 98‑page report in August, piling up reasons for the return of a strong U.S. industrial sector. Nancy Lazar, who co-authored the ISI Group report, says, “This is the beginning of a manufacturing renaissance. I’ve been saying this since 2009. Even the industrial companies told me I was crazy. Why are they telling me I’m crazy? Because they’ve spent the last 15 or 20 years putting the plants outside the U.S. That’s over.”

_Dozens_ of other places. I call that many.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ngle_page=true

And the article is almost two years old. The trend has continued.

"ET Water Systems, having made irrigation controls in Dalian, China, since 2002, recently relocated production and assembly to San Jose, California. Not only is it faster and cheaper to manufacture in San Jose, but the move has also improved quality and yield and accelerated innovation and product development.

High-end cookware manufacturer All-Clad Metalcrafters is bringing lid production back to the U.S. from China to be closer to both customers and its main factory and to reduce capital costs.

Electronics manufacturing services company AmFor Electronics cited delivery responsiveness and ease of design revisions as reasons for on-shoring wire-harness production and some final assembly from China and Mexico to Portland, Oregon. After implementing lean production practices, AmFor also found that landed costs were lower than when it was using overseas suppliers.

Farouk Systems says it is moving some final assembly of hair irons and dryers from China and South Korea to a 1,000-worker factory in Houston, Texas, in part to cut inventory costs.

Altogether, the U.S. has added more than 300,000 manufacturing jobs since the beginning of 2010, showing growth for the first time since the late 1990s and offering an encouraging sign for the next several years."

Boston Consulting Group, US Manufacturing Nears The Tipping Point

Maybe you need to let Wham-O and ET Water Systems know that California is not a good place to do business in?

It would be even more, except for this bit of really stupid obstructionism by a relatively small number of Senators.

"U.S. Senator Debbie Stabenow's Bring Jobs Home Act, which ends tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas and cuts taxes for businesses to bring jobs back to America, was supported by a majority of Senators today but Senate Republicans blocked the bill with a procedural move. While Sen. Stabenow's initiative received a majority of votes in support, 56-42, the bill was blocked by a Republican filibuster which meant the legislation required 60 votes to move forward."
"Many" is far less than the total of Immelt, or Obama appointed Job Czar's, 36,000 jobs he created abroad and cutting another 34,000 from GE. Further, the jobs you refer to are not what one would consider great paying rewarding work. They are predominantly blue collar.
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      05-14-2014, 09:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post

It would be even more, except for this bit of really stupid obstructionism by a relatively small number of Senators.

"U.S. Senator Debbie Stabenow's Bring Jobs Home Act, which ends tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas and cuts taxes for businesses to bring jobs back to America, was supported by a majority of Senators today but Senate Republicans blocked the bill with a procedural move. While Sen. Stabenow's initiative received a majority of votes in support, 56-42, the bill was blocked by a Republican filibuster which meant the legislation required 60 votes to move forward."
Here's a different perspective on Stabenow's Bring Jobs Home Act:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/e...3tI/story.html

Seems there were many unintentional consequences in the legislation, and lots of loopholes:

"Good tax policy targets easily measurable actions. But it’s hard to tell when a business unit is being relocated and when, instead, some old operation is being dismantled and replaced by a substantially different operation. Corporations constantly move in and out of different lines of business in places around the world. The tax credit would have meant that taxpayers could pay for 20 percent of the costs of dismantling failed foreign units and setting up new but only vaguely related units in the United States."

And with all the bashing of "Corporate Welfare," why are some corporate tax breaks okay, and others are not?
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      05-15-2014, 09:21 AM   #69
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You didn't think this one through very well before you answered did you, Sherlock?
You don't have the ability to question why other countries can do it cheaper than the U.S. do you? Damn, you are so business savvy. You probably work for the federal or state government don't you?

You continue to post counter arguments that are from your imagination. As much as you would love to believe that Toyota is leaving California and Nissan already left for the reason of wanting "A more centralized location to be closer to the various locations you'd likely need to visit" (still don't know WTF that means) - it is otherwise absolutely and in no uncertain terms due to California's ever rising income taxes and its anti-business regulation.
I already explained it, thoroughly in such a way that a 5 year old could understand it. You've proven time and time again that you lack even the most basic comprehension abilities.

No I do not work for the government (I did work for a government contractor once doing work for the DoD many, many years ago but that's a private company).

They can do it for cheaper than the US due to lax regulation and lower pay. These things aren't necessarily a good thing. You see how bad the smog is in China? It's a major health risk due to their factories. As for the pay, if you want to pay Americans $1/day to do intense labor in factories go for it. Good luck finding people skilled enough to perform reliable work at that rate in the US. Your question is a very simple one to answer, it's humorous that you think you're so smart for posing it. You're actually incredibly ignorant, but it's ok, I find it comical.

Quote:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rexsinqu...ed-california/

In every counter argument, you've posted ignorant rants from your imagination, ass or the lame stream left wing nut job biased media that have, in every instance, been clearly offset by fact, logic and common sense. Now who is really "spewing the hyperbolic nonsense with counter arguments that make no sense?

Feeling desperate and grasping at straws? Keep listening to that far left biased media and their publications and spewing hyperbolic nonsense with your counter arguments that make little to no sense. The adults will continue having reasonable discourse.
No, I never said CA was a good place to set up shop, nor did I ever argue that taxes played NO role in the move. Just stating it wasn't the sole reason (if it were, there'd be practically no other company headquartered in CA, and there'd be very little in the US itself) and there's plenty of other factors to consider before moving shop. Essentially the only place in CA that's strong from a jobs perspective is Silicon Valley, but that's probably the 4th time I've had to say that to you.

It's no left media regurgitation or anything, it's just the fact that you're simply too dense to comprehend what I'm trying to say to you. The reasons this is happening I suspect is due to one or more of the following:

1. The words I'm using have too many syllables, so you can't understand them.
2. You're too immature to be expected to read someone else's post that has more than two sentences.
3. You have the comprehension abilities of a 5 year old, so you can't even understand what little you bother to read.

Quote:
You don't put a lot of thought into what you post do you?
I do actually, I mean it'd be silly for a corporate financial analyst to not know these things wouldn't it? I've dealt with this sorta stuff everyday for several years now. It's just that you're too reliant on talking points vs. anything with substance to it to comprehend what I'm telling you. Anything that requires anything that even remotely resembles critical thinking you simply cannot understand.

So to further illustrate my point, which will ultimately go right over your head (if you've had the attention span to even read this far), if the sole reason companies are leaving CA is due to their taxes and regulations (which is what you're arguing) then why is any company still incorporated in America? You do realize we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world and it's been that way for several decades right?

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      05-15-2014, 11:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
I already explained it, thoroughly in such a way that a 5 year old could understand it. You've proven time and time again that you lack even the most basic comprehension abilities.

No I do not work for the government (I did work for a government contractor once doing work for the DoD many, many years ago but that's a private company).

They can do it for cheaper than the US due to lax regulation and lower pay. These things aren't necessarily a good thing. You see how bad the smog is in China? It's a major health risk due to their factories. As for the pay, if you want to pay Americans $1/day to do intense labor in factories go for it. Good luck finding people skilled enough to perform reliable work at that rate in the US. Your question is a very simple one to answer, it's humorous that you think you're so smart for posing it. You're actually incredibly ignorant, but it's ok, I find it comical.



No, I never said CA was a good place to set up shop, nor did I ever argue that taxes played NO role in the move. Just stating it wasn't the sole reason (if it were, there'd be practically no other company headquartered in CA, and there'd be very little in the US itself) and there's plenty of other factors to consider before moving shop. Essentially the only place in CA that's strong from a jobs perspective is Silicon Valley, but that's probably the 4th time I've had to say that to you.

It's no left media regurgitation or anything, it's just the fact that you're simply too dense to comprehend what I'm trying to say to you. The reasons this is happening I suspect is due to one or more of the following:

1. The words I'm using have too many syllables, so you can't understand them.
2. You're too immature to be expected to read someone else's post that has more than two sentences.
3. You have the comprehension abilities of a 5 year old, so you can't even understand what little you bother to read.



I do actually, I mean it'd be silly for a corporate financial analyst to not know these things wouldn't it? I've dealt with this sorta stuff everyday for several years now. It's just that you're too reliant on talking points vs. anything with substance to it to comprehend what I'm telling you. Anything that requires anything that even remotely resembles critical thinking you simply cannot understand.

So to further illustrate my point, which will ultimately go right over your head (if you've had the attention span to even read this far), if the sole reason companies are leaving CA is due to their taxes and regulations (which is what you're arguing) then why is any company still incorporated in America? You do realize we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world and it's been that way for several decades right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
Because it's generally cheaper to have someone in China build your iPhone for $0.10/hr or whatever than having an American do it..


And again, back on point, you didn't think this one through very well before you answered did you, Sherlock?

You don't have the ability to question why other countries can do it cheaper than the U.S. do you? Damn, you are so business savvy. You probably work for the federal or state government don't you?

You continue to post counter arguments that are from your imagination. As much as you would love to believe that Toyota is leaving California and Nissan already left for the reason of wanting "A more centralized location to be closer to the various locations you'd likely need to visit" (still don't know WTF that means) - it is otherwise absolutely and in no uncertain terms due to California's ever rising income taxes and its anti-business regulation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rexsinqu...ed-california/

In every counter argument, you've posted ignorant rants from your imagination, ass or the lame stream left wing nut job biased media that have, in every instance, been clearly offset by fact, logic and common sense. Now who is really "spewing the hyperbolic nonsense with counter arguments that make no sense?

Feeling desperate and grasping at straws? Keep listening to that far left biased media and their publications and spewing hyperbolic nonsense with your counter arguments that make little to no sense. The adults will continue having reasonable discourse.


And it is not as if California’s anti-business tactics are a well-kept secret.

CEO Magazine’s 2013 Best and Worst State’s for Business ranks California in last place.

The 2014 ALEC-Laffer State Economic Competitive Index ranks the state 43rd in economic performance, 47th in economic outlook, 50th in top marginal personal income tax, 50th in personal income tax progressivity, and, to make matters worse, 49th in recent legislative tax changes.

The 2014 Tax Foundation State Business Climate Index ranks California 48th, just above New York and New Jersey.

You don't put a lot of thought into what you post do you?
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      05-15-2014, 11:56 AM   #71
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Some more "insourcing". I limited it to California, but that's no hardship, see the last story.

"Indian outsourcers now 'insourcing' jobs to Silicon Valley"

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_18625774

"A U.S. Manufacturing Success Story – Simple Wave LLC"

"One company, SimpleWaveLLC, has embraced the shift in collective thinking from ‘offshoring is cheaper’ to ‘local reduces the total cost of ownership.’ In doing so, the California-based company received the 2012 U.S. Department of Commerce’s Export Achievement Award during a ceremony at NPE - a chemicals trade show and event organized by The Society of the Plastics Industry, Inc."

http://www.reshorenow.blogspot.com/2...ry-simple.html

"Watch the 'Saving The California Dream' Video Report

A look at the "Insourcing" trend. We showcase Frieze Frames, an optical company bringing jobs back to California by making the commitment to begin manufacturing in Ventura, rather than overseas (note: audio is missing for the first minute)"

Read more: Saving The California Dream: Insourcing - KMSP-TV http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/18376977/saving-the-california-dream-insourcing#ixzz31nd9MMuJ"

"Global Entrepreneurs "Insourcing" Jobs to Northern California"

http://www.groco.com/readingroom/bus...nsourcing.aspx

"TOP 10 STATES FOR “INSOURCING”
* Insourcing in California supports over 616,000 jobs;
* Insourced jobs in New York approach 400,000; in Texas over 350,000;
* Illinois, Florida, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, North Carolina, and Michigan complete the list of the top 10 states by insourced jobs."

http://www.globalbusinessnews.net/story.asp?sid=589

By the way, you do know California is still growing, although at a slower rate than the almost exponential boom times of the late 20th century? It's above average growth too, on a percentage basis, it's 18th of 50 States. So, overall, all the economic numbers are up, GDP, jobs, etc. One reason growth is slowing is the most expensive housing in the nation. Because basically, a great many people still want to live there. Many consider it their dream location.

In any event, it's not exactly a disaster. As in countries like Denmark, high taxes translate into high services and better infrastructure. It's a tradeoff many people (and many companies) like. In 2011 (the last year I could get data), 20,000 people moved from Texas to California. Maybe one day...?

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      05-15-2014, 12:06 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
"TOP 10 STATES FOR “INSOURCING”
* Insourcing in California supports over 616,000 jobs;
* Insourced jobs in New York approach 400,000; in Texas over 350,000;
* Illinois, Florida, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, North Carolina, and Michigan complete the list of the top 10 states by insourced jobs."

http://www.globalbusinessnews.net/story.asp?sid=589
It's good to see California at the lead of this endeavor, as they need jobs and increased sources for tax revenue to get them out of their abysmal debt and lackluster economy.

Hopefully, they will not screw it up again. However, I wouldn't bet on it, as long as liberalism reigns dominant:

And it is not as if California’s anti-business tactics are a well-kept secret.

CEO Magazine’s 2013 Best and Worst State’s for Business ranks California in last place.

The 2014 ALEC-Laffer State Economic Competitive Index ranks the state 43rd in economic performance, 47th in economic outlook, 50th in top marginal personal income tax, 50th in personal income tax progressivity, and, to make matters worse, 49th in recent legislative tax changes.

The 2014 Tax Foundation State Business Climate Index ranks California 48th, just above New York and New Jersey.
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      05-15-2014, 12:20 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
get them out of their abysmal debt and lackluster economy.
Read to the end of the post. It's still a decent economy, albeit not the growth leader it was. Once again, the debt, per capita, is about average for all US States.

It's not a bad place to live or work. Housing is pricy, because of the demand.

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      05-15-2014, 12:46 PM   #74
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Read to the end of the post. It's still a decent economy, albeit not the growth leader it was. Once again, the debt, per capita, is about average for all US States.

It's not a bad place to live or work. Housing is pricy, because of the demand.
In the meantime:

CEO Magazine’s 2013 Best and Worst State’s for Business ranks California in last place.

The 2014 ALEC-Laffer State Economic Competitive Index ranks the state 43rd in economic performance, 47th in economic outlook, 50th in top marginal personal income tax, 50th in personal income tax progressivity, and, to make matters worse, 49th in recent legislative tax changes.

The 2014 Tax Foundation State Business Climate Index ranks California 48th, just above New York and New Jersey.
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      05-15-2014, 12:58 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
In the meantime:

CEO Magazine’s 2013 Best and Worst State’s for Business ranks California in last place.

The 2014 ALEC-Laffer State Economic Competitive Index ranks the state 43rd in economic performance, 47th in economic outlook, 50th in top marginal personal income tax, 50th in personal income tax progressivity, and, to make matters worse, 49th in recent legislative tax changes.

The 2014 Tax Foundation State Business Climate Index ranks California 48th, just above New York and New Jersey.
They clearly just have a victim mindset and are too lazy to work hard and persevere in California.
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      05-15-2014, 07:17 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
Read to the end of the post. It's still a decent economy, albeit not the growth leader it was. Once again, the debt, per capita, is about average for all US States.

It's not a bad place to live or work. Housing is pricy, because of the demand.
California is an awesome place in so many aspects.
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      05-15-2014, 08:03 PM   #77
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California is an awesome place in so many aspects.
You are right, it is an awesome place in so many aspects. I've lived here for 39 of my 41 years, and I absolutely love it. The only thing I wish we would change is to have the signs on the highways read "Keep left except to pass" instead of "Slower traffic keep right". Other than that, I think California is a great state.

edit: Plus, we have In-N-Out burger...

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      05-15-2014, 08:29 PM   #78
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Everyone knows our roads need more work, both maintenance and more lanes. A great many are shoddy and congested. Everyone knows the reason it isn't being done is that there is not enough money from present gas taxes to do what is needed. That money is not being diverted elsewhere.

So this is totally necessary. Citizens should get the numbers, and assure themselves that the tolls don't go to other uses. Personally, I'm confident they won't. Too much risk for the politicians involved, too many investigative journalists who'd love a juicy story.
More liberal ideologue left wing nut BS!!

Please tell us what happened to the 1 trillion dollars that Obama received and said he was going to use to turn the economy around by creating shovel ready jobs to repair our nations infrastructure. And please tell why you believe the government, taking even more of the folks hard earned money in the form of taxation, can do a better job than the private sector.

Please reference proof of government successes that support your response. I'll remind you ahead of time that everything the government has ever run is broke.

This is going to be great!
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      05-15-2014, 08:34 PM   #79
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You are right, it is an awesome place in so many aspects. I've lived here for 39 of my 41 years, and I absolutely love it. The only thing I wish we would change is to have the signs on the highways read "Keep left except to pass" instead of "Slower traffic keep right". Other than that, I think California is a great state.

edit: Plus, we have In-N-Out burger...
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      05-15-2014, 09:51 PM   #80
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Please tell us what happened to the 1 trillion dollars that Obama received and said he was going to use to turn the economy around.
The stimulus (which was far less than a trillion) turned the economy around. The increase in the value of the stock market (now at record highs) alone is more than ten times the stimulus, and the stimulus gave us many things, including a lot of repaired and new infrastructure, among other things, some mentioned below. Had it been a trillion, it all would have happened a lot faster.

Housing prices are back up. Then there's unemployment, now back to where it was. The dollar is doing well. Exports, too, up about 50%. Manufacturing has seen a real renaissance. We've discussed the many successes of insourcing.

I bought a BMW. <grin>

The only President who ever accomplished a more impressive repair to the economy was Roosevelt. Some numbers for you.

"At its peak, the Recovery Act directly employed more than 700,000 Americans on construction projects, research grants and other contracts. That number doesn’t include the jobs saved or created through its unemployment benefits, food stamps and other aid to struggling families likely to spend it; its fiscal relief for cash-strapped state governments; or its tax cuts for more than 95 percent of workers. Top economic forecasters estimate that the stimulus produced about 2.5 million jobs and added between 2.1 percent and 3.8 percent to our gross domestic product."

"The stimulus was also the first modern spending bill with no official legislative earmarks, the usual definition of “pork.” And after experts warned that 5 to 7 percent of the money could be lost to fraud, investigators documented only $7.2 million in losses through 2011, about 0.001 percent."

"The stimulus was the biggest and most transformative energy bill in history, pouring $90 billion into record expansions of every imaginable form of clean energy, from renewables to electric vehicles. It included $27 billion to computerize health care. Its Race to the Top was a landmark in education reform. Its high-speed rail program was the most ambitious transportation initiative since the interstates. It extended high-speed Internet to underserved communities, a modern twist on the New Deal’s rural electrification, and modernized the New Deal-era unemployment insurance system."

By the way, while Obama proposed the stimulus, Congress both made it law, and wrote the spending bills. One way or another, the money went to the American people. And it was many times more than the stimulus dollars.

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      05-15-2014, 10:20 PM   #81
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The stimulus (which was far less than a trillion) turned the economy around. The increase in the value of the stock market (now at record highs) alone far exceeds the stimulus, and the stimulus gave us a lot of repaired and new infrastructure, among other things. Had it been a trillion, it all would have happened a lot faster.

Housing prices are back up. Then there's unemployment, now back to where it was. The dollar is doing well. Exports, too. Manufacturing has seen a real renaissance. We've discussed the many successes of insourcing.

I bought a BMW. <grin>

The only President who ever accomplished a more impressive repair to the economy was Roosevelt. Some numbers for you.

"At its peak, the Recovery Act directly employed more than 700,000 Americans on construction projects, research grants and other contracts. That number doesn’t include the jobs saved or created through its unemployment benefits, food stamps and other aid to struggling families likely to spend it; its fiscal relief for cash-strapped state governments; or its tax cuts for more than 95 percent of workers. Top economic forecasters estimate that the stimulus produced about 2.5 million jobs and added between 2.1 percent and 3.8 percent to our gross domestic product."

"The stimulus was also the first modern spending bill with no official legislative earmarks, the usual definition of “pork.” And after experts warned that 5 to 7 percent of the money could be lost to fraud, investigators documented only $7.2 million in losses through 2011, about 0.001 percent."

"The stimulus was the biggest and most transformative energy bill in history, pouring $90 billion into record expansions of every imaginable form of clean energy, from renewables to electric vehicles. It included $27 billion to computerize health care. Its Race to the Top was a landmark in education reform. Its high-speed rail program was the most ambitious transportation initiative since the interstates. It extended high-speed Internet to underserved communities, a modern twist on the New Deal’s rural electrification, and modernized the New Deal-era unemployment insurance system."

By the way, while Obama proposed the stimulus, Congress both made it law, and wrote the spending bills. One way or another, the money went to the American people.
To say the stimulus is what turned the economy around is a reach - both to assume that this was the cause, and that the economy is turned around. The stock market is booming, but largely due to the Fed printing money. It's been a jobless recovery, which doesn't benefit the American people. Unemployment is still way too high, and record numbers have quit looking for work. More people are on food stamps than ever before. I think we discussed Roosevelt's *contirbution* to the Depression before... And the Stimulus money didn't all go to the American people, nor would I be confident that a lot of the money didn't go to fraud; you don't find fraud if you don't look for it:

• $554,763 for the Forest Service to replace windows in a closed visitor center at Mount St. Helens

• $762,372 to create “Dance Draw” interactive dance software

• $62 million for a tunnel to nowhere in Pittsburgh, PA that even Governor, Ed Rendell called “a tragic mistake”

• $1.9 million for international ant research

• $1.8 million for a road project that is threatening a pastor’s home

• $308 million for a joint clean energy venture with…BP

• $89,298 to replace a new sidewalk that leads to a ditch in Boynton, OK

• $3.8 million for a “streetscaping” project that has reduced traffic and caused a business to fire two employees

• $16 million to help Boeing to clean up an environmental mess it created in 2007

• $200,000 to help Siberian communities lobby Russian policy makers

• $39.7 million to upgrade the statehouse and political offices in Topeka, Kansas

• $760,000 to Georgia Tech to study improvised music

• $700,000 to study why monkeys respond negatively to inequity

• $193,956 to study voter perceptions of the economic stimulus

• $363,760 to help NIH promote the positive impacts of stimulus projects

• $456,663 to study the circulation of Neptune’s atmosphere

• $529,648 to study the effects of local populations on the environment…in the Himalayas
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      05-15-2014, 10:37 PM   #82
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• $308 million for a joint clean energy venture with…BP
Let's just take your big ticket item. The money didn't exactly go to BP. It's building an advanced electric power plant testing new technologies we're going to want, and maybe sell abroad. You can quibble about the project, new ideas always get that, but it's far from silly or a gift to BP. Like it or not they have unique assets for advanced energy development. The BP rig that had a failure was a half a billion dollar machine that had advanced technology that rivals the space shuttle. Like the space shuttle, deepsea drilling below 20,000 feet pushes things to the very edge, and that carried with it risk. Whether or not we should take that kind of risk for oil is another topic you and I may be on different sides on.

Everything you listed amounts to a tiny fraction of the stimulus. A lot of the projects you don't like come out of block grants that were given to the States. No earmarks, remember? Scientific research, which is a key thing that makes America great, is always an easy target.

Bottom line. The stimulus worked spectacularly well to solve the biggest problem we've had since WWII, and your post is carping about the small stuff. Everything added up is a fraction of 1% of the total.

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      05-15-2014, 10:46 PM   #83
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Bottom line. The stimulus worked spectacularly well to solve the biggest problem we've had since WWII, and your post is carping about the small stuff.
There's no evidence whatsoever that it solved any part of the problem, and the problem isn't solved.
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      05-15-2014, 11:14 PM   #84
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The stimulus (which was far less than a trillion) turned the economy around. The increase in the value of the stock market (now at record highs) alone is more than ten times the stimulus, and the stimulus gave us many things, including a lot of repaired and new infrastructure, among other things, some mentioned below. Had it been a trillion, it all would have happened a lot faster.

Housing prices are back up. Then there's unemployment, now back to where it was. The dollar is doing well. Exports, too, up about 50%. Manufacturing has seen a real renaissance. We've discussed the many successes of insourcing.

I bought a BMW. <grin>

The only President who ever accomplished a more impressive repair to the economy was Roosevelt. Some numbers for you.

"At its peak, the Recovery Act directly employed more than 700,000 Americans on construction projects, research grants and other contracts. That number doesn’t include the jobs saved or created through its unemployment benefits, food stamps and other aid to struggling families likely to spend it; its fiscal relief for cash-strapped state governments; or its tax cuts for more than 95 percent of workers. Top economic forecasters estimate that the stimulus produced about 2.5 million jobs and added between 2.1 percent and 3.8 percent to our gross domestic product."

"The stimulus was also the first modern spending bill with no official legislative earmarks, the usual definition of “pork.” And after experts warned that 5 to 7 percent of the money could be lost to fraud, investigators documented only $7.2 million in losses through 2011, about 0.001 percent."

"The stimulus was the biggest and most transformative energy bill in history, pouring $90 billion into record expansions of every imaginable form of clean energy, from renewables to electric vehicles. It included $27 billion to computerize health care. Its Race to the Top was a landmark in education reform. Its high-speed rail program was the most ambitious transportation initiative since the interstates. It extended high-speed Internet to underserved communities, a modern twist on the New Deal’s rural electrification, and modernized the New Deal-era unemployment insurance system."

By the way, while Obama proposed the stimulus, Congress both made it law, and wrote the spending bills. One way or another, the money went to the American people. And it was many times more than the stimulus dollars.
All lies. You are one warped individual. You have to be a complete idiot to believe the bullshit you just posted! It is laughable!
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      05-16-2014, 08:46 AM   #85
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All lies. You are one warped individual. You have to be a complete idiot to believe the bullshit you just posted! It is laughable!
Yeah agreed 100%. No way he bought a BMW!

I'll give you the fact that he went off what one would read in a WH press release. The stimulus was ho-hum at best. Unemployment is still meh and the marginal improvements in unemployment are mostly due to people either leaving the labor force (either because they've looked for work for so long the BLS no longer counts them, they retired, went back to school, etc) or took low skilled, hourly jobs (i.e. are underemployed).

I will say the stimulus did help our previous firm. Part of the stimulus gave incentives to hospitals to upgrade their systems to an ICD-10 architecture (ICD-10 is basically an international standard where numerical codes correspond to various ailments, they're upgraded from time to time to allow for more ailments to be programmed in). It's an international standard so that way hospitals all over the world are on the same page should they ever have to share information about a specific patient. Most hospitals in the US were behind in implementing the technology and were on ICD-9. I worked for an IT healthcare firm so we got lots of good business during the recession to help us weather the otherwise low demand. Luckily once that money coming in ran out, we were able to remain profitable and a few years later sold the company.

It's an anecdotal example I know, so I won't say that because of that the stimulus was a "wild success" or anything outrageous like that, but it wasn't a "total failure" either. Both are hyperbolic statements, I mean we were even hiring people during the recession to keep up with the demand from hospitals wanting to upgrade to ICD-10.

Remember, the stimulus was first signed into law by Bush, since it was late into his Presidency, it was a stop gap measure until the next POTUS could come in and expand the program as needed.

I agreed with the general idea when Bush signed it into law, and agreed with the general idea when Obama expanded it's scope. Like any major project involving large sums of money and lots of moving parts, some worked reasonably well, other parts of it did not.

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      05-16-2014, 09:46 AM   #86
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I will say the stimulus did help our previous firm. Part of the stimulus gave incentives to hospitals to upgrade their systems to an ICD-10 architecture (ICD-10 is basically an international standard where numerical codes correspond to various ailments, they're upgraded from time to time to allow for more ailments to be programmed in). It's an international standard so that way hospitals all over the world are on the same page should they ever have to share information about a specific patient. Most hospitals in the US were behind in implementing the technology and were on ICD-9.
ICD-10 has been a bit of a train wreck... It's only used for statistics, and would be very ineffective for trying to share information about a specific patient. As an international standard, there are numerous versions of ICD-10 across the world, and they are not the same. The US version is over 10x the complexity of all the rest, so it won't even be useful in comparative statistics. It also has added huge cost (with no near-term return on investment for them) to the Docs and Hospitals, which is what the Stimulus money was trying to offset, although the conditions to get the money are complex and byzantine, and have many strings. The amount of stimulus money is also turning out to be woefully inadequate. ICD-10 also obsoletes the skills of thousands of certified coders in the US, and unless they learn anatomy and physiology, they will lose their jobs.

The deadline for conversion to ICD-10 has been extended twice by the Obama Administration, so efforts to migrate to ICD-10 have been largely wasted, to date. There is also very weak guidelines around testing between Docs/Hospitals and insurers, so no one is confident in the success of the transtion, which is now slated for 10/1/2015. Failures and bumps in the road will mean Docs/Hospitals don't get paid, as healthcare payment is almost entirely based upon those codes.

So what's the point of this transition? Primarily, the insurers and the Government will have very detailed information about all healthcare activity of each individual in the US, as well as in aggregate. The upside could be that this information is often used to improve treatment guidelines and practices, and reduce inefficiencies in the system. The downside is that the transition will certainly be rocky, and that healthcare policy can be more easily directed by bureaucrats. Not saying either will in fact happen, but those are the possibilities.

Oh - and look for more inaccurate comparisons of US healthcare to other countries - because it's not the same coding system worldwide.

Hope your former firm makes this transition easier for the providers of healthcare.
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      05-17-2014, 11:46 AM   #87
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Annual Revenue for Road and Bridge Repairs
Source: DOT as of most current data dated 2011:

Fuel & Vehicle Taxes: 85.2B
State Tolls: 11.8B
Property Taxes & Assessments 9.8B
Additional Taxes & Fees 14.5B

As if this isn't enough. This is an insane amount of money! And, our government wants more! All the while our nations infrastructure is in continued horrid disrepair. It is the typical story with everything government has their greedy inefficient hands in. The government needs transparency and accountability so that the folks can be assured their tax dollar doesn't continue to be wasted, misappropriated and inefficiently used.

If you think about it logically and from a common sense perspective, what business and experience does the government have trying to fix our nations infrastructure? It's the same question we all should be asking about healthcare, education, or any other government run program today.

Doesn't it make complete sense that the private sector, experts in this field, who specialize in this work specifically, should be responsible for this work? This would result in quality, efficient, responsible, cost effective and accountable work far better than the government could ever dream of accomplishing. It will also create more jobs, putting the earnings DIRECTLY in the tax payers hands to benefit from, enjoy and spend, as they choose, in our economy. It DIRECTLY stimulates our economy far quicker, more efficiently and effectively than the government taking more and more of our tax dollar and redistributing it as it sees fit.

Are you happy with government inefficiency and excess? The government can never, has ever, do better than the people , private sector business can do for itself.
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      05-17-2014, 05:40 PM   #88
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If you think about it logically and from a common sense perspective, what business and experience does the government have trying to fix our nations infrastructure?

Doesn't it make complete sense that the private sector, experts in this field, who specialize in this work specifically, should be responsible for this work?

The government can never, has ever, do better than the people , private sector business can do for itself.
I didn't know the Federal government had road construction workers who are civil service. I didn't know even local governments did much directly except maybe fix potholes.

Or are you proposing the private sector collect road taxes and plan what projects to do directly? The Koch brothers would have the best streets in the world running in front of their businesses, and you'd pay for it.

By the way, governments around the world run health care insurance far better than our private sector. More people get coverage, healthcare costs the country far less per capita, and by every quantitative measure (life expectancy, infant mortality, doctors per 1000 people, etc.), the health care is generally more effective. We lead in a few very high tech areas (like heart transplants) that most people never use, for the standard stuff you go to the family doc for, they're better.

Even Italy does it better. Do you think our government is worse (more inefficient, more corrupt, etc.) than Italy's?

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