ZSG M with 8 gears..

[JK42]

Originally Posted by southlight

I hate to say it but a believable, credible source on the new M3 won't tell anything about that car (e.g. Maggo); it would be great, if jussi is the exception of that rule. But i take all that information as what it is, a big rumour.
BTW no offense against jussi, we're all trying to seek information about that car.

Best regards south

There are people who work for BMW who can still talk to other people who they consider their friends or colleagues. These are not state secrets after all. Information has always leaked out about new models, and as far as I don't have an NDA on the subject, I will continue to post whatever information I gather from the people who are closer to the source and can't post themselves.

Best regards,

Jussi

[devo]

Originally Posted by M3

There will be a ZSG (for non-M models) and a ZSG M (for M models).. the ZSG M will feature in the new M3 and wait... HAVE 8 forward gears.. the shifts will be seamless and incredibly faster than any SMG or Audi DSG could dream about..

The short ratios will keep the M3 V8 in its high revving power peak(YEAH BABY SO HOPE WE GETTING FLAT-PLANE CRANK!!) so revs dropping no lower than 7000 RPM after shifts.. So BMW M will once again be using the gear ratios to fully exploit the cars potential..(bang it to 9000 RPM then back down to 7000 RPM and then it happens all over again).. this is all good news to me..

Also the new M3 will be 'THE' premium M car and have a 0-100 kph time of 4.5 secs..

If the Bavarians can not get their flagship M3 to cut the 100 kph sprint to less than 4.5 seconds -regardless of the number of gears, they should scrap the engine and start again.

[JK42]

Don't worry... BMW has long traditions with building excellent V8 engines (out of European engine manufacturers), and the new 4.0L block won't be short of spectacular.

Best regards,

Jussi

[enigma]

Originally Posted by southlight

I hate to say it but a believable, credible source on the new M3 won't tell anything about that car (e.g. Maggo); it would be great, if jussi is the exception of that rule. But i take all that information as what it is, a big rumour.
BTW no offense against jussi, we're all trying to seek information about that car.

Best regards south

I would 2nd this based on much of what he has posted. Some of it makes sense and some is just completly wrong. The problem is he believes both with equal passion. My favorite was comparing the car to the GTR race car because they both had V8s.

In the E46 generayion the M3 just inherited the gearbox from the M5/6. I would be shocked if they did a new design with anything more than upgraded software. From a cost/benifit perspective it doesn't make much sense for them.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by enigma

I would 2nd this based on much of what he has posted. Some of it makes sense and some is just completly wrong. The problem is he believes both with equal passion. My favorite was comparing the car to the GTR race car because they both had V8s.

My favorite was the whole 9k rpm thing...which has been retreated from.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by swamp2

My favorite was the whole 9k rpm thing...which has been retreated from.

In fairness I have seen that rumor for close to 2 years now. Also since Honda already build exactly half of a 9k rpm 4L V8, its plausable. We simply have no evidence for or against.

FWIW: I have been on the other side of this fence during product launches. I recently got a lot of good laughs out of months of internet rumors and speculation, including a 100+ page thread, about future products.

What happens is rumors develop a life of their own. Someone makes one up, then another site posts its as fact. A few more link it. Then somone looking sees lots of evidence of said rumor. In the end none of it had any basis in fact.

So if the goal here is to figure out what the E92 really will be then a diffrent approach is in order. If presented with a rumor ask.

1: Is it possible given todays technology.
2: Is it profitable to develop given a relativly small production run of ~$60k cars.
3: Would it appeal to the hard core BMW owners.
4: Would it appeal to the mainstream BMW owners.
5: Would it increase the sales of the car.
6: Would it increase the performance of the car.
7: Would it be low maintance.

I am sure there are other good questions to ammend this list.

So for an 8spd, shift without clutch, SMG like gearbox.
1: Yes.
2: Probable, given they would re-use the technology in future cars.
3: yes
4: no
5: Unlikely, not many people would be able to tell the diffrence between it and SMG III.
6: Not much, if any. If 8th was an extreme overdrive then you might get some fuel economy gains.
7: No, clutchless shifting would put extreme loads on the gearbox unless BMW lightened the internals of the engine. They cannot do this for smoothness and reliability reasons.

So 2.5 out of 7

Apply the same logic to a 9k RPM V8
1: yes
2: yes (see s2000)
3: yes
4: No
5: Likely
6: Yes, would also point to a 450+ actual output
7: yes (again, see s2000)

So ~6 out of 7.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by enigma

7: yes (again, see s2000)

So ~6 out of 7.

Maybe ~4 or 5 out of 7 as Honda had to reduce the S2000 redline. That counts maybe -1 or -2. But heck production street bikes are hitting 18,500 rpm (well Japanese release only, small displacement, production bikes...). What you get with that performance is also a one year warranty.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Maybe ~4 or 5 out of 7 as Honda had to reduce the S2000 redline. That counts maybe -1 or -2. But heck production street bikes are hitting 18,500 rpm (well Japanese release only, small displacement, production bikes...). What you get with that performance is also a one year warranty.

There didn't have to reduce it for reliability reasons. When they upped the displacement to improve the low end torque that would have resulted in unacceptable loads on the engine due to the longer stroke.

For comparison:
S54 stroke 91mm
9k rpm S2000 stroke 87mm
8k rpm S2000 stroke 90.7 mm
S85 stroke 75.2 mm See: http://www.vrchlabi.cz/e30/ruzne/enginenumber/

The load on an engine can very roughly be aproximated to RPM*RPM*Stroke. If the V8 shares the same bore/stroke of the S85 (likely) then 9000k rpm isn't an issue from a loading point of view. The loads involved would be comparable to the S54 at 8k.

[JK42]

Originally Posted by swamp2

My favorite was the whole 9k rpm thing...which has been retreated from.

I only report what I hear. I don't "retreat" from issues. And as calculated, 9krpm would easily be doable. Now it's up to the endurance testing to find out if the engine will have a long enough life if it released in the 9krpm form.

As far as the other new questions, I believe all of them have been answered, except the braking and the G skid-pad issues.

Regards,

Jussi

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JK42

As far as the other new questions, I believe all of them have been answered, except the braking and the G skid-pad issues.

Regards,

Jussi

The OBVIOUS intent of that post was not to necessarily ask ALL new questions. It was to gather a bunch of the hottest questions together. If you even loosely think ALL of these questions have been ANSWERED you are crazy. Folks: We have no FIRM specs yet!

[JK42]

Originally Posted by swamp2

'We have no FIRM specs yet!

There won't be firm specs until BMW releases them. So if you want those, you're probably going to have to wait until March or April. Most likely March and Geneva.

I hope as much as as the next guy they release the specs sooner, but it's already so close to those events and there are no major auto industry events before Geneva, that I fear it might not happen.

Regards,

Jussi

[enigma]

I think the problem is a few people present their opinion and rumor as if it were actual fact. They also get offended when asked to back up their statements.

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by enigma

I think the problem is a few people present their opinion and rumor as if it were actual fact. They also get offended when asked to back up their statements.

You're right on the money with this statement.

-Adam