Oil Analysis Back. It's Terrible

[tdott]

Originally Posted by M_Three

Copper was 4 ppm

With copper low, that means you are probably just wearing down the top lead layer of the bearing.

I would say no need to be alarmed, but it shows your bearings are wearing and imo I would be planning to do a rod bearing change in the future.


In terms of how long you have, no one can know for sure, a bearing could starve for oil for a couple of seconds, then spin the bearing causing rod knock or shoot a rod out of the block depending on how bad it is. or it can continue to run fine for another 50-100k assuming the wear doesn't continue at the same rate, if it does continue at the same rate then you probably have much less time.

[M_Three]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

The idea behind BE bearings is that they address the clearance issue of OEM bearings. Theoretically, they are a permanent solution though they haven't been around long enough to prove that out.

Yeah, I have been reading about the issue and I have a hard time believing that BMW didn't know how to properly clearance an engine they designed. Last I looked crankshaft based engines have been around for quite sometime.. So do we really understand the root cause of these seemingly random rod bearing issues?

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by M_Three

So do we really understand the root cause of these seemingly random rod bearing issues?

That depends on who you ask.

[M_Three]

Originally Posted by tdott

With copper low, that means you are probably just wearing down the top lead layer of the bearing.

I would say no need to be alarmed, but it shows your bearings are wearing and imo I would be planning to do a rod bearing change in the future.


In terms of how long you have, no one can know for sure, a bearing could starve for oil for a couple of seconds, then spin the bearing causing rod knock or shoot a rod out of the block depending on how bad it is. or it can continue to run fine for another 50-100k assuming the wear doesn't continue at the same rate, if it does continue at the same rate then you probably have much less time.

So here is what I don't get. So lets say the rod bearings were .001 too tight. Now wouldn't you think that if that were the case after that top layer of bearing wore off therefore opening up the oil clearence, the engine would in effect have the proper clearence and then stop wearing the bearings further???

[M_Three]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

That depends on who you ask.

It's amazing after all this time there is no clear root cause established. What it seems mostly to me is this could be a case of operator induced failure.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by M_Three

It's amazing after all this time there is no clear root cause established. What it seems mostly to me is this could be a case of operator induced failure.

Again, depends on who you ask. The folks behind BE bearings have done a great deal of R&D to back their conclusions. The majority of people on this forum believe that this is indeed the root cause and the collected data seems to confirm that. There has also been anecdotal evidence that operator error is not to blame. Do some research and draw your own conclusions. The BE bearings website has a lot of background info to start you off.
https://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html

[M_Three]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

Again, depends on who you ask. The folks behind BE bearings have done a great deal of R&D to back their conclusions. The majority of people on this forum believe that this is indeed the root cause and the collected data seems to confirm that. There has also been anecdotal evidence that operator error is not to blame. Do some research and draw your own conclusions. The BE bearings website has a lot of background info to start you off.
https://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html

Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by M_Three

So here is what I don't get. So lets say the rod bearings were .001 too tight. Now wouldn't you think that if that were the case after that top layer of bearing wore off therefore opening up the oil clearence, the engine would in effect have the proper clearence and then stop wearing the bearings further???

If load and bearing wear were linear, then maybe. But with an automotive engine load is not linear or constant/even. Protection of the bearing surface is variable and based on the film strength of the oil, that protection changes based on temp/rpm/combustion quality, sometimes protection is compromised. You have a compromised situation and a worn bearing has less chance of surviving. Worse cause you have a seized bearing and a rod out the block, less worse case you have rod knock for a period of time before the bearing seizes and comes out the block. Best case, everything is fine and it lasts a long time....

[macdude357]

Here is what I would do. Take it to a shop that accepts the warranty company and also has experience with the S65 bearings. Assuming they agree that the issue could be bearings, they will then tell you what the charge is to inpsect the bearings. Ask the warranty company to pay for that. They likely won't but it won't hurt to ask. Once the bearings have been removed, if they are worn, you might stand a chance of having the warranty company cover the parts and labor to install the new bearings.

[M_Three]

Originally Posted by tdott

If load and bearing wear were linear, then maybe. But with an automotive engine load is not linear or constant/even. Protection of the bearing surface is variable and based on the film strength of the oil, that protection changes based on temp/rpm/combustion quality, sometimes protection is compromised. You have a compromised situation and a worn bearing has less chance of surviving. Worse cause you have a seized bearing and a rod out the block, less worse case you have rod knock for a period of time before the bearing seizes and comes out the block. Best case, everything is fine and it lasts a long time....

Nicely explained.. Thanks.

[M_Three]

Originally Posted by macdude357

Here is what I would do. Take it to a shop that accepts the warranty company and also has experience with the S65 bearings. Assuming they agree that the issue could be bearings, they will then tell you what the charge is to inpsect the bearings. Ask the warranty company to pay for that. They likely won't but it won't hurt to ask. Once the bearings have been removed, if they are worn, you might stand a chance of having the warranty company cover the parts and labor to install the new bearings.

My shop and I just discussed what the plan will be. I'm going to get the car there next week to start a repair order for a "low end knock" that comes and goes. An oil analysis was ordered by the shop to further diagnose the problem and it was found to show high levels of lead. We are thinking the warrantee company will honor a tear down to check and replace the bearings.

[monterey]

Originally Posted by M_Three

Great Idea.. Thank you. And I didn't think about the oil filter housing as a point for the sample.

Instructions specifically says not to collect oil from oil filter for obvious reasons. The filter catches all the junk and anything you collect from the canister might throw off inaccurate numbers.

[M_Three]

Originally Posted by monterey

Instructions specifically says not to collect oil from oil filter for obvious reasons. The filter catches all the junk and anything you collect from the canister might throw off inaccurate numbers.

Well there goes that idea.

[aus]

First thing to do is delete this thread.
Then you say you heard a slapping noise at times and you paid the shop to inspect. They found bad bearing wear. Then call insurance with the findings and see if they'll cover it.
It's worked for others.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by monterey

Instructions specifically says not to collect oil from oil filter for obvious reasons. The filter catches all the junk and anything you collect from the canister might throw off inaccurate numbers.

You can collect from the housing. What they're saying is not to just let oil drip off the filter into a collection container. I have taken samples from the filter housing and there were no weird spikes or contaminants.

My suggestion would be to drive the car as you normally would for 20-30 minutes to make sure everything gets nice and hot, then shut off the car and IMMEDIATELY take the sample from the filter housing before it runs back down into the sump. I have done this exact procedure before on my M3 and two Audis.

[zipper228]

Originally Posted by M_Three

So now regarding the BE bearing replacements. I would assume that this really isn't the be all fix and that these bearings will once again self destruct.. Is that what you guys have been seeing over time?

Haven't heard of any failures yet with these replacements. However, was told that several motors with the recommended BE bearings setup were subsequently used for some serious track time, had the bearings pulled again later for inspection, and did not appear to show any concerning wear

[Dr. Dre]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

A replacement engine is not $25k. The warranty company would source a used engine with similar mileage. Even refurb engines direct from BMW are less than $25k and you can't buy a brand new S65 anymore. Could they find a reason to deny the claim? Sure. But that reason would not be repair cost exceeding the vehicle's value.



My warranty company would deny this claim. You would need pre-approval from them to start taking things apart to diagnose an issue. My dealer found that out the hard way...

Why would you be able to buy a new engine from BMW? Manufacturer's have to supply parts for a vehicle up to 10 years after production has ended. Did you mean a longblock? At the very least you should be able to buy the components and build an engine.

[65fastback]

I got my bearings replaced by my non BMW... 0 deductible national warranty....got a check engine light and turned out had 1 bad vanos solenoid ( this is what i was told by the shop ) so... the shop i went to apparently convinced the warranty adjuster bearing "shavings" caused the vanos to go bad. there for we need NEW BEARINGS!!!
IMO my bearings look just fine for a 31k 2013 s65 motor.

Also... i did have to pay out of pocket for bolts ( and a LONG list of other things ) since we used arp and not OEM. Had we used OEM bolts, the warranty would have paid, so i was told.

[65fastback]

Here is what i was asked to pay out of pocket

[65fastback]

Here is the part i was NOT asked to pay for.

[65fastback]

JUST to be clear.... i did not ask for any of this! i came in for a check engine light and was told later on that day i needed new bearings since i had 1 bad vanos solenoid due to bearing shavings.

moral of the story here is... be carful what you wish for!

[WAKman]

I had a ppi on my car (08 w/77K miles), and the mechanic said he saw "flecks of metal in the oil filter." It didn't occur to me that this was not the ideal way to make the analysis, for the reasons stated above. The dealer and I agreed that I would supply the parts and that he would pay the labor to his friend's indy shop. The indy was a BMW certified tech, so I went with that. The bearings looked fine once he got them out.

To me, paying part of the cost of having it done before I even took delivery was far better than the aggravation of a bearing failure or the worry every time I hit the throttle.

I agree with those who say the warranty company would never agree to a pre-emptive repair. They aren't interested in helping you; their only interest is in hanging on to their pennies as long as they possibly can.

Terry