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      10-22-2008, 11:30 AM   #45
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Speaking of numbers.....12days 13hrs til election day. Ahhhh.

McCain is running out of time.
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      10-22-2008, 01:35 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papito135 View Post
Stirring the pot:
Aren't you supporting socialism since the Fair Tax rebates taxes on the "poverty level expenditures"? According to the FAQ, the gov't would end up sending cash to people who live below the poverty level to pay ALL of their taxes for them. Up to $10,580 a year!

This is a WAY bigger give-away to the poor than anything Obama is proposing. Obama is just writing the $500 dollar economic stimulus credit (exactly what that Socialist Republican George Bush did earlier this year) into law. Under Obama's plan, even poor folks who don't pay any Income Tax at all would continue to pay payroll tax, Social Security tax, medicare/medicaid tax, FICA, etc. But under the Fair Tax from www.fairtax.org, people living under the poverty level would not even pay these taxes! Not only would they not pay those taxes, they would still get "prebate" checks from the government each month to counter any sales tax they might pay. What you support is WAY more "socialist" than what Obama and Bush have done with their $500 dollar economic stimulus tax credits!

I thought you were against socialism?

(I asked the same question on another thread -- I'll delete the question on the other thread if you answer it here, and vice-versa)
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      10-22-2008, 02:08 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Aren't you supporting socialism since the Fair Tax rebates taxes on the "poverty level expenditures"? According to the FAQ, the gov't would end up sending cash to people who live below the poverty level to pay ALL of their taxes for them. Up to $10,580 a year!

This is a WAY bigger give-away to the poor than anything Obama is proposing. Obama is just writing the $500 dollar economic stimulus credit (exactly what that Socialist Republican George Bush did earlier this year) into law. Under Obama's plan, even poor folks who don't pay any Income Tax at all would continue to pay payroll tax, Social Security tax, medicare/medicaid tax, FICA, etc. But under the Fair Tax from www.fairtax.org, people living under the poverty level would not even pay these taxes! Not only would they not pay those taxes, they would still get "prebate" checks from the government each month to counter any sales tax they might pay. What you support is WAY more "socialist" than what Obama and Bush have done with their $500 dollar economic stimulus tax credits!

I thought you were against socialism?

(I asked the same question on another thread -- I'll delete the question on the other thread if you answer it here, and vice-versa)
NO, but the current tax system got to go. And the only alternative we have is the Fair Tax. You can call part of it socialism but what other choices we have?
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      10-22-2008, 02:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papito135 View Post
NO, but the current tax system got to go. And the only alternative we have is the Fair Tax. You can call part of it socialism but what other choices we have?
Well, part of the Fair Tax IS socialism, and it doesn't depend upon me to call it that. You are actively promoting socialism. So do you still think it is fair to tag just Obama with this label, when you yourself support a socialist tax system?

I'm not saying the Fair Tax is a bad solution. And I'm definitely not saying that it is a bad solution because it has a socialist element for those at or below the poverty level. It could be a very good solution.

But I do think we all need to be VERY honest with ourselves when we start throwing around words like "Socialist" as an insult. So since you have been calling Obama a socialist over and over for supporting a progressive tax system, you must be willing to proudly label yourself a "Socialist" too every time you promote the Fair Tax system.

Either that, or stand up like a man and retract your "Socialist" name-calling against others.


Your choice.
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      10-22-2008, 02:55 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Well, part of the Fair Tax IS socialism, and it doesn't depend upon me to call it that. You are actively promoting socialism. So do you still think it is fair to tag just Obama with this label, when you yourself support a socialist tax system?

I'm not saying the Fair Tax is a bad solution. And I'm definitely not saying that it is a bad solution because it has a socialist element for those at or below the poverty level. It could be a very good solution.

But I do think we all need to be VERY honest with ourselves when we start throwing around words like "Socialist" as an insult. So since you have been calling Obama a socialist over and over for supporting a progressive tax system, you must be willing to proudly label yourself a "Socialist" too every time you promote the Fair Tax system.

Either that, or stand up like a man and retract your "Socialist" name-calling against others.


Your choice.
I can not retract my opinion of Obama. Everything that Obama and the democratic party in my opinion do and want to do is cater to socialism. The Fair Tax might have some socialist parts in it for those at or below the poverty level. But it is a better solution to what we have and what either McCain or Obama is bringing to the table. I am not promoting socialism. I am just voicing my opinion on both Obama and McCain also. Just like you have your opinion.
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      10-22-2008, 03:30 PM   #50
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The pot is stirred. You guys are having a fine disagreement here. Good reading.
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      10-22-2008, 10:54 PM   #51
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OK, let's get back on track.
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      10-23-2008, 07:00 PM   #52
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This is a good little story that sums up taxes in America

Tax System explained in Beer

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes,it would go something like this The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner
threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm
going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. 'Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.But what about the other six men - the paying customers?
How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
'I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!''Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man.
'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!''That's true!!' shouted the seventh man.
'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two?
The wealthy get all the breaks!
''Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!
'The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.Professor of Economics University of Georgia For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
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      10-23-2008, 07:05 PM   #53
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I have seen that before and it sums it up pretty well, if I was rich I would say f this noise and move somewhere that didn't take my hard earned money. (edit: at such a high rate)
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      10-23-2008, 09:26 PM   #54
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"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? No says the man in Washington; it belongs to the poor. No says the man in The Vatican; it belongs to God. No says the man in Moscow; it belongs to everyone."
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I guess you could move to the underwater city of Rapture, then the sweat of your brow is entirely your own.
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      10-24-2008, 12:04 PM   #55
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This discussion might carry some weight if it mapped in any form or fashion to reality. This doesn't consider tax breaks, loopholes, lobbyists or a money driven political system. Do rich people really pay that much? Umm.. no. If they have a 'tax problem' there are 'tax solutions'. Check any CPA website.

Also if you think the whole world works like salaried federal income tax, here are a few simple tidbits just from my experience:

- There is no income tax in Texas. Schools, county's and other entities not funded out of sales tax are funded out of a property tax. However, since the price of property has gone up, the taxes have gone up in direct proportion. Now property owners pay 65% of the bills instead of the 35% they used to pay. This is not indexed, and it certainly isn't fair. Retirees are being taxed out of their paid for houses.

- Nebraska has both a income tax and a property tax. Their property tax was almost as much as Texas. Their income tax is also high. The Omaha area pays for 80% of the entire state since much of the west are farms with massive tax breaks. This is fair?

- New Mexico (where I am now) has a reasonable property tax and a reasonable state income tax. It's OK so far.

So the rich people are going to leave if get rid of the tax breaks? Where are they going to go? They already have as much of their wealth hidden as they possibly can. The people that really get screwed are families in the $100K-$200K range. Not enough for offshore accounts and shelters, too much for a reasonable tax rate. We need to move some responsibility from the rich to them.

And yes, it would be nice if cash based industries paid their taxes.. I haven't seen a viable plan to get there. There are some serious problems with the national sales tax approach but it would be good for me. I already own most of what I need and don't spend all that much on taxable goods.
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      10-24-2008, 12:21 PM   #56
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Taxes are important but what too many people are forgetting is that Job #1 for the POTUS is Commander in Chief.

Not chief economist, not head school marm, not head nurse, not head community organizer.

McCain fits the bill as Commander in Chief not B.O.

The enemies within are much more dangerous than the barbarians at the gate.
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      10-24-2008, 12:43 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben14142001 View Post
This is a good little story that sums up taxes in America

Tax System explained in Beer

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

<SNIP!>

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.Professor of Economics University of Georgia For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Ben, do you regularly run your life based upon chain e-mails you receive, without ever bothering to do basic fact checking on them?

Do you regularly run your life based upon the word of people who are proven liars, without even bothering to challenge anything they say?

Because right from the top, the folks who created this little screed lied to you. They said that David R. Kamerschen wrote this. He didn't. Here is what UGA's professor David R. Kamerschen himself says about it:

"Contrary to Internet folklore, Dr. Kamerschen is NOT the author of "Tax Cuts: A Simple Lesson in Economics." Additionally, he does NOT know who wrote it."

http://davidk.myweb.uga.edu/

Just spending a few minutes debunking this thing, I've already found half a dozen fallacies. But there is no point in even explaining them to somebody who isn't interested in what the truth is. You've found your convenient lies all wrapped up in a pretty package, and you really aren't interested in challenging them.

I debunk it here, and Ben, you and your buddies who think it is cute will just go somewhere else and re-post the same lies there. You are WILLFULLY ignorant and there is no amount of debunking or fact checking that can change the opinion of the willfully ignorant.

Because at just finding out that the story's author was willfully fabricated, an honest person would retract this piece of urban folklore and apologize. Far from that, you will defend it, and continue to post it elsewhere -- because you are not interested in applying ANY scrutiny to whatever chain email that crosses through your inbox that catches your political fancy.
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      10-24-2008, 03:47 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelerbimmer View Post
Taxes are important but what too many people are forgetting is that Job #1 for the POTUS is Commander in Chief.

Not chief economist, not head school marm, not head nurse, not head community organizer.

McCain fits the bill as Commander in Chief not B.O.

The enemies within are much more dangerous than the barbarians at the gate.
Actually, it's not his number one job except in time of war. And the manufactured 'War on Terror' doesn't count. It has to be declared by Congress. This is formally described in a concept of operations for the office the details of which are classified. And I could tell you why I'm familiar with all of this, but we don't discuss clearances on the net.

In addition, if the country is an economic wreck (as it now is) and we have a severe trade imbalance that is a significant threat to our national security, so it's never quite so simplistic. As for the important commander and chief job, hopefully McCain would do better than Bush. We've pushed the troops and equipment we do have to the limit in Iraq further impacting our security. Pretty bad job all around.

Finally, what in the world are "the enemies within" and what does this have to do with our military? Figure we ought to send the marines out against those pinko socialist democrats?
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      10-24-2008, 04:00 PM   #59
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[QUOTE/]
Just spending a few minutes debunking this thing, I've already found half a dozen fallacies. But there is no point in even explaining them to somebody who isn't interested in what the truth is. You've found your convenient lies all wrapped up in a pretty package, and you really aren't interested in challenging them.
[/quote]

Given that it's so common to attribute it as shown that you could find it corrected by a simple search, I would think it's an honest error. And certainly not a big deal. Why the accusations and tirade? Let's just work off of what was said. :iono:
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      10-24-2008, 04:05 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
Actually, it's not his number one job except in time of war. And the manufactured 'War on Terror' doesn't count. It has to be declared by Congress. This is formally described in a concept of operations for the office the details of which are classified. And I could tell you why I'm familiar with all of this, but we don't discuss clearances on the net.

In addition, if the country is an economic wreck (as it now is) and we have a severe trade imbalance that is a significant threat to our national security, so it's never quite so simplistic. As for the important commander and chief job, hopefully McCain would do better than Bush. We've pushed the troops and equipment we do have to the limit in Iraq further impacting our security. Pretty bad job all around.

Finally, what in the world are "the enemies within" and what does this have to do with our military? Figure we ought to send the marines out against those pinko socialist democrats?

Again, job # 1 for the POTUS is Commander in Chief in times of war and in peace.

Tell the 3,000 who died on 9-11-01 about this "manufactured" war of terror.

It is not a war on terror, it is a war against radical Islamists.

Finally sending the Marines out against those pinko socialist demonrats is a good start.
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      10-24-2008, 04:30 PM   #61
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Wow, thank you for the personal and overly harsh attack. I never stated that I ran my life by this or anything of this nature. I was simply posting a remark that I hoped would spur discussion, not personal attacks that you seem to be set upon. I did not realize that he was the author, and it was ignorant of me not to check further into, but beyond that, you are extremely out of line with your remarks relating to my life and beliefs. You have no knowledge of me or anything I do and your blind assumptions are unneeded and uncalled for.

-Ben

QUOTE=Nixon;270582]Ben, do you regularly run your life based upon chain e-mails you receive, without ever bothering to do basic fact checking on them?

Do you regularly run your life based upon the word of people who are proven liars, without even bothering to challenge anything they say?

Because right from the top, the folks who created this little screed lied to you. They said that David R. Kamerschen wrote this. He didn't. Here is what UGA's professor David R. Kamerschen himself says about it:

"Contrary to Internet folklore, Dr. Kamerschen is NOT the author of "Tax Cuts: A Simple Lesson in Economics." Additionally, he does NOT know who wrote it."

http://davidk.myweb.uga.edu/

Just spending a few minutes debunking this thing, I've already found half a dozen fallacies. But there is no point in even explaining them to somebody who isn't interested in what the truth is. You've found your convenient lies all wrapped up in a pretty package, and you really aren't interested in challenging them.

I debunk it here, and Ben, you and your buddies who think it is cute will just go somewhere else and re-post the same lies there. You are WILLFULLY ignorant and there is no amount of debunking or fact checking that can change the opinion of the willfully ignorant.

Because at just finding out that the story's author was willfully fabricated, an honest person would retract this piece of urban folklore and apologize. Far from that, you will defend it, and continue to post it elsewhere -- because you are not interested in applying ANY scrutiny to whatever chain email that crosses through your inbox that catches your political fancy.[/quote]
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      10-24-2008, 05:11 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelerbimmer View Post
Again, job # 1 for the POTUS is Commander in Chief in times of war and in peace.

Tell the 3,000 who died on 9-11-01 about this "manufactured" war of terror.

It is not a war on terror, it is a war against radical Islamists.

Finally sending the Marines out against those pinko socialist demonrats is a good start.
You can say it's job number 1 and think whatever you want but that is not how our government is formally structured and that is a documented fact. If you have some objective evidence other than your own opinion feel free to share it.

I say 'manufactured' because 'War on Terror' were the words used to market the concept. As I've stated previously, I believe our retaliation in Afghanistan was justified. Overt military ops should have been limited to that.

We are not at war with the Muslims who want an Islamic society. Radical or otherwise. There are Muslims that wish for a political and social system based on Islam and that is certainly their perogative. In spite of what the Christian right wing currently in control of the Republican party have promoted, this does not make them our enemies. Of course, the current administration has done everything they can to make them hate us. Personally I am very (very) opposed to religion and government mixing at any level, but that is not how either the Taliban or Bush feel about it.

As for the suggestion the we should unleash military violence on the people that will make up your government in a few months: I take this to be mindless forum hyperbole. Otherwise this is how terrorists think. They are so certain of their world view that they rationalize military action. Wake up and smell the Democracy.
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      10-24-2008, 05:42 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben14142001 View Post
Wow, thank you for the personal and overly harsh attack. I never stated that I ran my life by this or anything of this nature. I was simply posting a remark that I hoped would spur discussion, not personal attacks that you seem to be set upon. I did not realize that he was the author, and it was ignorant of me not to check further into, but beyond that, you are extremely out of line with your remarks relating to my life and beliefs. You have no knowledge of me or anything I do and your blind assumptions are unneeded and uncalled for.

-Ben

Why do you take it personally? After all, "I was simply posting a remark that I hoped would spur discussion" (in your own words).
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      10-24-2008, 07:06 PM   #64
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Nicely said, Spook.
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      10-28-2008, 04:24 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post

We are not at war with the Muslims who want an Islamic society. Radical or otherwise. There are Muslims that wish for a political and social system based on Islam and that is certainly their perogative. In spite of what the Christian right wing currently in control of the Republican party have promoted, this does not make them our enemies...
you're correct, that doesn't. what does is that the quran, at least as interpreted by the radical islamists, advocates conversion by the sword of everyone else. i don't bring this up as justification for any particular policy thet we have or action that we have taken but just as a reminder. do you have any thoughts about how to deal with this issue?
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      10-28-2008, 10:15 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Papito135 View Post
I can not retract my opinion of Obama. Everything that Obama and the democratic party in my opinion do and want to do is cater to socialism. The Fair Tax might have some socialist parts in it for those at or below the poverty level. But it is a better solution to what we have and what either McCain or Obama is bringing to the table. I am not promoting socialism. I am just voicing my opinion on both Obama and McCain also. Just like you have your opinion.

So you still think Obama is a socialist, even though you don't actually have any evidence, or policy to support your statement. It's just a belief of yours. Well, I can't prove to you that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist either. So there is no hope (or point) in arguing against your "Tooth Fairy" defense. So I've pretty much dropped trying.

But if you call Obama a "Socialist", what would you call the candidate who RAISED taxes on the gasoline you put in YOUR tank in order to send piles of cash to the people of that candidate's home state?

The candidate who passed a law to use tax money to give that state's residents an ADDITIONAL approx $4,800 dollars for the typical family, on top of the $2,000 they got before she became governor?

That's a total of approx $6,800 worth of redistribution of YOUR gas money YOU pay at the pump going to each and every typical Alaskan family.

Since you aren't a Palin/McCain voter, I'm hoping you will at least give an honest opinion about whether you would call that socialism or not, based upon your criteria you used against Obama.
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