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      08-11-2008, 04:25 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Scott, the title should be changed as Russia did not invade Georgia, but Georgia invaded Ossetia instead...
The title of the thread came from the title of the article quoted in the first post.

With the Russian advisors, peacekeepers, and whatever else in South Ossetia working against Georgia toward separation, did they force the hand of Georgia to act? I haven't researched the details, and may not be able to find enough information to draw firm conclusions (since so much of what can be found on any political subject is biased by writers and editors).

I don't know how this situation could be characterized as showing off. It seems to me that at best Russia is making an example of Georgia. At worst, Russia will occupy Georgia for the long-term.

What were the crimes of Georgia that led to such aggressive Russian action? Wasn't Georgia trying to regain it's territory? Shouldn't they want to have unity?

Russia likely was an instigator in much of what came to happen. They needed to act against Georgia since Georgia was drawing near to the West to the point of trying to join NATO. That would be a major thorn in Russia's side.

I think Russia wanted a reason to act... any reason. In finding that reason, they acted zealously.
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      08-11-2008, 04:32 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
The title of the thread came from the title of the article quoted in the first post.

With the Russian advisors, peacekeepers, and whatever else in South Ossetia working against Georgia toward separation, did they force the hand of Georgia to act? I haven't researched the details, and may not be able to find enough information to draw firm conclusions (since so much of what can be found on any political subject is biased by writers and editors).

I don't know how this situation could be characterized as showing off. It seems to me that at best Russia is making an example of Georgia. At worst, Russia will occupy Georgia for the long-term.

What were the crimes of Georgia that led to such aggressive Russian action? Wasn't Georgia trying to regain it's territory? Shouldn't they want to have unity?

Russia likely was an instigator in much of what came to happen. They needed to act against Georgia since Georgia was drawing near to the West to the point of trying to join NATO. That would be a major thorn in Russia's side.

I think Russia wanted a reason to act... any reason. In finding that reason, they acted zealously.
Georgia attacked the breakaway province. Georgia is way more powerful than Ossetia. 1400 were dead in a day or two of the conflict. Russia stepped in.

(For your reference -- Serbia (more powerful than breakaway province of Kosovo in 1999) stepped in, then the USA (and NATO) staged a few events to justify pounding Serbia for 77 days causing almost $100B in damage (many civilians, so called Colleteral Damage, disappeared) -- was that excessive?
Russia could not help to its ally, Serbia, then by going against the USA, the USA can only sit and watch this time...otherwise...)
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      08-11-2008, 05:17 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Russia likely was an instigator in much of what came to happen. They needed to act against Georgia since Georgia was drawing near to the West to the point of trying to join NATO. That would be a major thorn in Russia's side.

I think Russia wanted a reason to act... any reason. In finding that reason, they acted zealously.
that's right, Scott, let's blame big bad Russia! After all, they are still the enemy, right? Oh, I have an idea... let's also send US troops to Georgia, doesn't that sound like fun???

Also, Saakashvili declared a cease-fire god knows how many times over this past weekend, yet Georgian military still haven't stopped it yet. He also made a statement about "Russian Aggressors" taking over Gori, which was proven to be a complete and fabricated lie.
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      08-11-2008, 05:28 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solefald View Post
that's right, Scott, let's blame big bad Russia! After all, they are still the enemy, right? Oh, I have an idea... let's also send US troops to Georgia, doesn't that sound like fun???

Also, Saakashvili declared a cease-fire god knows how many times over this past weekend, yet Georgian military still haven't stopped it yet. He also made a statement about "Russian Aggressors" taking over Gori, which was proven to be a complete and fabricated lie.
dr325i is right that the U.S. can't send troops in.

Russia is the enemy, so I would first believe they are at fault before I would believe a U.S. ally was at fault.

Show the information about the complete and fabricated lie. I haven't seen it. If it is a top new story, I will likely see it. I haven't had that much time to be able to following all the breaking news [working today]. I also don't generally catch ALL the breaking news anyway, because my life isn't entirely consumed by current events.
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      08-11-2008, 05:30 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by solefald View Post
I like how bunch of armchair generals over here deciding who it wrong and who it right from behind their computer screens...

Georgia attacked first, hoping that all they will have to do is instigate, and after that the rest of the world will come and fight their war. Not that easy...

Maybe now our little pro-Bush friend Saakashvili will get the message now (George W. Bush Ave. is the name of the street between Tbilisi Airport and downtown Tbilisi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi...tional_Airport)
First of all, you know nothing of what military experience members of this board may or may not have.

Your assertion that the Georgians initiated this is belied by the rapid reaction of the Russian troops. The Russian Army has a reputation for incredibly poor readiness. Units often need weeks to prepare their equipment for large exercises. This preparation often includes swapping out equipment with other units that are not taking part in the exercise. The idea that they were able to prepare and deploy multiple motorized rifle regiments in less than a week simply is not credible given their past history.

None of this is to say that Georgia is blameless in this. They took the bait but Russia's recent strikes into Georgia proper show this is part of a larger Russian plan.
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      08-11-2008, 06:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
First of all, you know nothing of what military experience members of this board may or may not have.
Unfortunately military experience is not enough to judge the situation on the other side of the globe by reading articles that US media shoves down your throat.
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      08-11-2008, 06:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by solefald View Post
Unfortunately military experience is not enough to judge the situation on the other side of the globe by reading articles that US media shoves down your throat.
Especially after his comment (that is about 15 years old) about Russian readiness...
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      08-11-2008, 06:46 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by solefald View Post
Unfortunately military experience is not enough to judge the situation on the other side of the globe by reading articles that US media shoves down your throat.
What inside information do you have? Or is your source of articles something other than "by reading articles that US media shoves down your throat"?
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      08-11-2008, 07:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by solefald View Post
Unfortunately military experience is not enough to judge the situation on the other side of the globe by reading articles that US media shoves down your throat.
You also do not know what sources of information people may or may not have. In the world today, assuming that someone is limited to local media is a mistake.
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      08-11-2008, 07:04 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
What inside information do you have? Or is your source of articles something other than "by reading articles that US media shoves down your throat"?
I have inside information form my friends and their families, who live in both, Russia and Georgia. On top of that one of my best friends Georgian and his family lives in Tbilisi, so they get the scoop on the situation.

I also read Russian news papers, and while i know that not everything there is true, by reading information from both sides I can see, at least partial, but truth.
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      08-11-2008, 07:43 PM   #55
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Obama: "No Possible Justification" for Russian Offensive

Here you have it from your messiah, lord Barack Obama:

link

Sen. Barack Obama delivered a statement from Hawaii about the worsening crisis in Georgia, declaring of Russia's aggression in the former Soviet republic, "There is no possible justification for these attacks."

The Illinois senator interrupted a family vacation to address the conflict and said he had spoken to Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to convey "my deep regret over the loss of life, and the suffering of the people of Georgia."

Like Sen. John McCain, Obama called for "active international engagement" to address the dispute, "including a high-level and neutral international mediator, and a genuine international peacekeeping force -- not simply Russian troops."

Russia, Obama continued, must stop its bombing campaign and flights in Georgian airspace, and withdraw ground forces from Georgia. "The Georgian government has proposed a cease-fire and the Russian government should accept it.

"We should also convene other international forums to condemn this aggression, to call for an immediate halt to the violence, and to review multilateral and bilateral arrangements with Russia -- including Russia's interest in joining the World Trade Organization," Obama said.
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      08-11-2008, 07:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solefald View Post
I have inside information form my friends and their families, who live in both, Russia and Georgia. On top of that one of my best friends Georgian and his family lives in Tbilisi, so they get the scoop on the situation.

I also read Russian news papers, and while i know that not everything there is true, by reading information from both sides I can see, at least partial, but truth.
Then tell your understanding with some detail. No need to impugn others for their opinions, except by your offering a proper argument of your own.

We all have our sources, whether public, private, or opinion. Hopefully most of us gain from the exchange of ideas and information.
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      08-11-2008, 09:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by 20Ducks View Post
All the liberals on this forum are thinking: wtf? the bushies not the ruskies are the bad guys invading other countries and such. This is just ruining our atheistic, socialistic manifesto. The horror...
Damn, good to see that signature again...was missing her.
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      08-11-2008, 09:50 PM   #58
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I just started writing this long essay on this topic, and came across and article in Guardian, that pretty much supports every point I was going to make, so I will just link to that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...eorgia.russia1





A little history lesson: Don't mess with Russia. It never ends well, and this should be a little lesson to George Bush. Putin (yes, he still runs the show there) will *NEVER* kiss his stupid ass, like Saakashvili does... I mean, come on, Georgian military wears US uniforms! Can you be any more pathetic ????
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      08-11-2008, 10:30 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solefald View Post
I just started writing this long essay on this topic, and came across and article in Guardian, that pretty much supports every point I was going to make, so I will just link to that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...eorgia.russia1





A little history lesson: Don't mess with Russia. It never ends well, and this should be a little lesson to George Bush. Putin (yes, he still runs the show there) will *NEVER* kiss his stupid ass, like Saakashvili does... I mean, come on, Georgian military wears US uniforms! Can you be any more pathetic ????
It was an interesting video and article. It was very one-sided in favor of Russia.

Why did South Ossetia want to separate from Georgia in the first place?
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      08-11-2008, 10:51 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
It was an interesting video and article. It was very one-sided in favor of Russia.

Why did South Ossetia want to separate from Georgia in the first place?
Well, i happen to share that side

Now, here is an article about why South Ossetia wants to separate, and it is quiet two-sided, explaining Russia's political game. Yes, a game, but last time I checked, US plays political game in pretty much every part of the world and then some, while Russia is pretty much worrying about close neighbors.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/democra...setia_4100.jsp

http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...nd_russia_7728

South Ossetians want to separate. Give them independence. I don't see anything wrong with that desire, if it allows them to live their lives, have jobs and raise families in a peaceful environment...
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      08-11-2008, 11:06 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by solefald View Post
South Ossetians want to separate. Give them independence. I don't see anything wrong with that desire, if it allows them to live their lives, have jobs and raise families in a peaceful environment...
What about the North Ossetians? Chechens? Is there a limit to self-determination?

I have no good answer.

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      08-11-2008, 11:51 PM   #62
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What a mess!
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      08-12-2008, 12:38 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solefald View Post
Well, i happen to share that side

Now, here is an article about why South Ossetia wants to separate, and it is quiet two-sided, explaining Russia's political game. Yes, a game, but last time I checked, US plays political game in pretty much every part of the world and then some, while Russia is pretty much worrying about close neighbors.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/democra...setia_4100.jsp

http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...nd_russia_7728

South Ossetians want to separate. Give them independence. I don't see anything wrong with that desire, if it allows them to live their lives, have jobs and raise families in a peaceful environment...
Those two articles were much better balanced, and generally more informative. It made it clearer what South Ossetia's motivation for separation from Georgia would be.

The South Ossetians don't share the language of Georgia, and they have a history of affinity toward Russia. They see greater opportunity being aligned with Russia than Georgia. It would seem that their best options are two: Re-integrate with Georgia, or become part of Russia. Independence does not seem a very stable option.

Russia's motivation is that they are tired of these former Soviet Republics acting like they are somebody. Russia should be able to gain back lost territory wherever they can achieve it. Especially Georgia is infuriating to Russia because of their aligning with the West. Russia doesn't need a Western nation that was one of their own brethren. Russia despises the turncoat Georgians. Russia sees a challenge to their power that they can win without any meaningful retaliation. This will serve as warning to other nations that Russia does not bluff.

What is Georgia's motivation? Just that South Ossetia has been part of Georgia since the borders were drawn by the Soviets to include it in Georgia? Was it peacefully part of Georgia before the formation of the Soviet Union? What is the strategic appeal of South Ossetia? By the description of the territory, South Ossetia sounds like worthless land. There must be something wrong with that description. Nobody wants to meekly give up their land to a hostile neighbor, even when that neighbor is vastly more powerful.

National borders change a lot over the course of centuries. You can bet that there will be many more changes within our lifetime.

Ultimately it would seem to be a difficult solution, no matter what that solution may be. Georgia cannot stand against Russia. The big question is whether Russia will pound Georgia. Are they likely to unseat the leadership of Georgia? Are they going to occupy Georgia? Are they going to try to expand their border to take as much of Georgia as they want? How would the West respond? Would NATO eventually accept Georgia as a member? Russia certainly wouldn't like that.

How do the Obama supporters like what BHO said?
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      08-12-2008, 01:55 AM   #64
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It's all power grabbing, IMO.

I don't see the point of macho posturing on our part. IMO, a better course of action would be to facilitate negotions and a cease fire as a neutral party, rather than trying to rattle our sabres at the Russians. They have no interest in outright conflict with us, nor do we with them. We don't have anything to gain strategically by taking the Georgian's side in this, as far as I can see.

Quite frankly, we had less justification in our invasion of Iraq than Russia does in their invasion of Georgia, so as far as I'm concerned we're in a bit of a glass house when it comes to throwing stones on this one.

A diplomatic solution can be found to this problem. I don't think we need to make vague and pointless threats.
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      08-12-2008, 08:45 AM   #65
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It's all power grabbing, IMO.

I don't see the point of macho posturing on our part. IMO, a better course of action would be to facilitate negotions and a cease fire as a neutral party, rather than trying to rattle our sabres at the Russians. They have no interest in outright conflict with us, nor do we with them. We don't have anything to gain strategically by taking the Georgian's side in this, as far as I can see.

Quite frankly, we had less justification in our invasion of Iraq than Russia does in their invasion of Georgia, so as far as I'm concerned we're in a bit of a glass house when it comes to throwing stones on this one.

A diplomatic solution can be found to this problem. I don't think we need to make vague and pointless threats.
We have a great strategic interest in seeing that the former Soviet states that have moved toward the west remain western oriented. If not Georgia, what about the Baltic states? Ukraine? How about the former Warsaw Pact states? Should we stand aside if the butchers in Peking invade Taiwan as well?

As for Iraq in comparison to Georgia, how do you equate a democratically elected government with Saddam's regime? Do you recall the invasion of Kuwait? The violation of the ceasefire agreement? Twelve years of UN Security Council Resolutions?
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      08-12-2008, 09:36 AM   #66
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Anyway - the way I see it is that Russia responded to an attack on it's Citizens and peace-keepers like the US attacked Afghanistan post 9/11.

Iraq is a different ballgame. The US attack on Iraq was Naked Aggression.
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