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      08-11-2008, 10:19 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Do you think that Russia may be overreacting? Or should they just dessimate Georgia?
Well, NO ONE should be decimated IMO, I don't think Russia is right either, it’s just how they are playing their political cards and not very different from how they perceive the US to have played its card regarding other countries. I really do hate it when absolutely innocent civilians are hurt like this, but in the mids of these governments, they are simply casualties of war or “colateral damage”!! Stupid if you ask me but still a fact. Bottom line Russia is performing its own little show of force and they know very, very well that the USA or anyone else for that matter is not going to do anything about it other than maybe some economic reprisals and all this talk. That means nothing to Russia.
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      08-11-2008, 10:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
Yes - Georgia did that in 1991-92 and once more on August 7th 2008 when Putin was at the opening act of the 2008 Olympics.



You think that the US may be overreaching by pushing NATO into Asia?

Enfield, nice T-34/75 picture!! Haha!
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      08-11-2008, 10:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Was Georgia massacring thousands of civilians in the separatist territory? Were there mass executions as the Serbs did?
Scotty, just when I think you use your brain -- you resort back to the news propaganda "sources"... Sad...

What Georgia did (if any) -- we will see.
Just as we're seeing more and more SERBIAN filled mass graves in Kosovo...and like in any war -- BOTH sides did (Korean war, etc...)

Anyway, I hope the madness stops as show off between the USA and Russia is just hurting the weak and innocent...
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      08-11-2008, 10:45 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Scotty, just when I think you use your brain -- you resort back to the news propaganda "sources"... Sad...

What Georgia did (if any) -- we will see.
Just as we're seeing more and more SERBIAN filled mass graves in Kosovo...and like in any war -- BOTH sides did (Korean war, etc...)

Anyway, I hope the madness stops as show off between the USA and Russia is just hurting the weak and innocent...
+1
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      08-11-2008, 10:46 AM   #27
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Things are way to unstable in this region (more than normal). I have a really bad feeling that this is going to escalate into a real war, especially if we go into Iran or deploy nuke nukers in Turkey. WWIII here we come.
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      08-11-2008, 10:48 AM   #28
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It seems as though the Georgians fell into the trap set by Putin. The Russians instigated an increase in violence in South Ossetia and the Georgians reluctantly responded by attempting to restore control over the region militarily. That gave Putin the opportunity to move.

The fact that the Russian military was able to move in so quickly is evidence that this was planned weeks, if not months beforehand.

The question now is whether Russia will over play its hand and attempt to move en masse into Georgia proper and remove the elected Georgian government.
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      08-11-2008, 10:55 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Windy View Post
Yeah I don't even really know what is going on. I just heard that Russia is going to war with Georgia. That is a damn joke because Georgia doesn't stand a chance in hell.
tell me about it man. why did the Georgian president declare Georgia will be invading Ossetia if he knows russia wont allow it??
Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
Looks like the good old USSR is trying to make it a comeback. I hope it's as long lived as LL's comeback otherwise we might be in for some fun times ahead.
except this time the US is busy fighting a ghost all over the place called terrorism
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Originally Posted by enfield View Post
Georgia started the mess with US and Israeli support and encouragement - the Israeli involvement is all over Israeli papers. Fox News is too busy about Edwards doing the nasty. Georgia by itself would never have started this. Meanwhile 2 US Carriers are heading off to the Gulf and did you guys know that Edwards did the nasty? I am glad that Russia is sticking up for itself. I hope that the world becomes multi-polar once more and the US does not run things anymore without opposition!

I hope that this nasty little war ends soon - I am most worried about Civilians. Hopefully the Russians will teach the Georgian Goernment not to start crap. The story is very similar to Kosovo....

GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

Israeli involvement:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...580136,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1010187.html

Initial suggestions of US involvement:
http://www.roguegovernment.com/news.php?id=11323
WTF does a small little country want from fighting or instigating or working against russia??
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Do you think that Russia may be overreacting? Or should they just dessimate Georgia?
no, russia wants a chance to get control back to get ol' USSR. invading these small countries is essential to stop US plan of the missile shield there
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
It seems as though the Georgians fell into the trap set by Putin. The Russians instigated an increase in violence in South Ossetia and the Georgians reluctantly responded by attempting to restore control over the region militarily. That gave Putin the opportunity to move.

The fact that the Russian military was able to move in so quickly is evidence that this was planned weeks, if not months beforehand.

The question now is whether Russia will over play its hand and attempt to move en masse into Georgia proper and remove the elected Georgian government.
again, got ur facts wrong. seems to me like Georgia is the one that *thought* has NATO, europe, and US support and has the green light to attack Ossetia. didnt know Russia had a counter plan, and that the west and the US are unable to do shit right now to help Georgia. dumb of Georgians to be honest
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      08-11-2008, 11:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Scotty, just when I think you use your brain -- you resort back to the news propaganda "sources"... Sad...

What Georgia did (if any) -- we will see.
Just as we're seeing more and more SERBIAN filled mass graves in Kosovo...and like in any war -- BOTH sides did (Korean war, etc...)

Anyway, I hope the madness stops as show off between the USA and Russia is just hurting the weak and innocent...
I agree with you that the madness should stop. Georgia has called for a cease fire. Russia acts like they didn't even hear their cry. People are dieing that do not need to die. If Russia quit pounding Georgia, do you think Georgia would start fighting again? I don't think so. They are beaten. A hard lesson learned.

Do you indicate that Georgia was massacring people in South Ossetia? I must have missed that report.

Do you indicate that the Serbs were massacred in Kosovo? Nothing would be a great surprise, but what I had come to understand was that the Serbs were the ones massacring thousands of civilians. [Perhaps the discussion of Serbia/Kosovo should go in a different thread.]
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      08-11-2008, 11:17 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Scotty, just when I think you use your brain -- you resort back to the news propaganda "sources"... Sad...

What Georgia did (if any) -- we will see.
Just as we're seeing more and more SERBIAN filled mass graves in Kosovo...and like in any war -- BOTH sides did (Korean war, etc...)

Anyway, I hope the madness stops as show off between the USA and Russia is just hurting the weak and innocent...
I believe I heard last week that Russia is working on transporting missles into Cuba again.

Could this be the start of another Cold War.....or worse, a game of chess leading up to WW3?

I hope not.
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      08-11-2008, 12:14 PM   #32
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The Georgian Perspective:

Quote:
The War in Georgia
Is a War for the West

By MIKHEIL SAAKASHVILI
August 11, 2008; Page A15

Tbilisi, Georgia

As I write, Russia is waging war on my country.

On Friday, hundreds of Russian tanks crossed into Georgian territory, and Russian air force jets bombed Georgian airports, bases, ports and public markets. Many are dead, many more wounded. This invasion, which echoes Afghanistan in 1979 and the Prague Spring of 1968, threatens to undermine the stability of the international security system.

...
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      08-11-2008, 12:30 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Couch View Post
I believe I heard last week that Russia is working on transporting missles into Cuba again.

Could this be the start of another Cold War.....or worse, a game of chess leading up to WW3?

I hope not.
I definitely hope NOT!
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      08-11-2008, 12:33 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
Things are way to unstable in this region (more than normal). I have a really bad feeling that this is going to escalate into a real war, especially if we go into Iran or deploy nuke nukers in Turkey. WWIII here we come.
Well, Russia needs to be distracted when we "operate" in Iran...
We just had a little "practice" with Georgia, just a week before this mess started...

Looking at the world leader's diplomacy strategy -- everyone can learn that the force is the only way to go...

The madness needs to stop...
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      08-11-2008, 12:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Well, Russia needs to be distracted when we "operate" in Iran...
We just had a little "practice" with Georgia, just a week before this mess started...

Looking at the world leader's diplomacy strategy -- everyone can learn that the force is the only way to go...

The madness needs to stop...
+1 totally agree. If we're going to have a world for our kids to inherit we need to stop all this nonsense before it escalates.
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      08-11-2008, 12:45 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I agree with you that the madness should stop. Georgia has called for a cease fire. Russia acts like they didn't even hear their cry. People are dieing that do not need to die. If Russia quit pounding Georgia, do you think Georgia would start fighting again? I don't think so. They are beaten. A hard lesson learned.

Do you indicate that Georgia was massacring people in South Ossetia? I must have missed that report.

Do you indicate that the Serbs were massacred in Kosovo? Nothing would be a great surprise, but what I had come to understand was that the Serbs were the ones massacring thousands of civilians. [Perhaps the discussion of Serbia/Kosovo should go in a different thread.]

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Art...0/1023485.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/402633.stm

http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m061203.html

It is so easy nowdays to finds the info from both sides...

If you need more help with Google, please let me know...
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      08-11-2008, 12:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
except this time the US is busy fighting a ghost all over the place called terrorism
There's a reason why Russia has slowly but surely been severing political ties with our administration, talking harshly about them and starting their bombers up again...because who's going to stop them? We're busy in God knows how many countries fighting stupid wars to begin with. Our military is exhausted and our industrial complex has been neutered for the purpose of corporate profits. Maybe we should enlist Mexico's help to fight the upcoming wars?

Sorry, just had to get a plug in for NAFTA there
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      08-11-2008, 01:12 PM   #38
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Do you think that the shuttered auto manufacturing plants can be retooled quickly for producing military vehicles, tanks, and missiles? With WWIII on the way, we'll need to get our gear from somewhere near. How about steel? Can we build steel mills quickly? I doubt that we can count on Chinese steele.
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      08-11-2008, 01:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
This gave very sketchy information from the Russians only. If there are 1,400 dead in South Ossetia that are almost all civilians, then this should be a reason for concern. Perhaps time will tell whether this is accurate information. My initial inclination is to not believe this Russian report.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
This and the next article are not much in evidence or accusation that Serbs had been massacred. The death of 14 farmers at the hands of Albanians (if what is implied is true) is very regretable, as is the bombing of a bus full of Serbs. How does this compare to the mass executions of thousands by the Serbs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post

http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m061203.html

It is so easy nowdays to finds the info from both sides...

If you need more help with Google, please let me know...
I don't need help with Google, but when you have a point to make, copying the relevant parts into the forum helps (and links to the sources).

Both sides in war do wrong. Usually one side is far more wrong than the other. From what little I have seen so far in the Serb/Kosovo situation in the 90s is that the Serb leaders were vastly more wrong than the Albanians.

You certainly know more about that war than I, but you are totally biased and hardly objective. I would tend to be biased in favor of the U.S. position (even though it was Clinton and I still question his motivation), but I am more open to the possibility of moderating that position than you who are still fighting that war in your mind.
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      08-11-2008, 01:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
There's a reason why Russia has slowly but surely been severing political ties with our administration, talking harshly about them and starting their bombers up again...because who's going to stop them? We're busy in God knows how many countries fighting stupid wars to begin with. Our military is exhausted and our industrial complex has been neutered for the purpose of corporate profits. Maybe we should enlist Mexico's help to fight the upcoming wars?

Sorry, just had to get a plug in for NAFTA there
The current Russian attitude and actions are a return to normalcy after a decade or so of retrenchment after the fall of the Soviet empire. Russian pride was wounded by the fall of the Soviet Union and the economic collapse that followed it. The fact that Russia now has the economic wherewithal to reassert itself and has moved toward reestablishing a sphere of influence should surprise no one.

The notion that Russia would be acting differently had we not invaded Iraq not bear close scrutiny. If anything the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan give us a better opportunity to intervene since our forces are much closer than they otherwise might be. Any military action we would even contemplate would be air or sea based and those forces are not presently extended. The last thing we would want to do is get involved in a land war against the Russians.
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      08-11-2008, 01:48 PM   #41
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georgia attacked first. granted, it is insulting to have russian peacekeepers stationed in georgia, but georgia did break the ceasefire first and russia doesn't play that.
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      08-11-2008, 02:49 PM   #42
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I like how bunch of armchair generals over here deciding who it wrong and who it right from behind their computer screens...

Georgia attacked first, hoping that all they will have to do is instigate, and after that the rest of the world will come and fight their war. Not that easy...

Maybe now our little pro-Bush friend Saakashvili will get the message now (George W. Bush Ave. is the name of the street between Tbilisi Airport and downtown Tbilisi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi...tional_Airport)
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      08-11-2008, 02:59 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post

Both sides in war do wrong. Usually one side is far more wrong than the other. From what little I have seen so far in the Serb/Kosovo situation in the 90s is that the Serb leaders were vastly more wrong than the Albanians.

You certainly know more about that war than I, but you are totally biased and hardly objective. I would tend to be biased in favor of the U.S. position (even though it was Clinton and I still question his motivation), but I am more open to the possibility of moderating that position than you who are still fighting that war in your mind.
Exactly, BOTH sides and that is what the USA (as the world police) failed to implement over and over -- middle east, former USSR republics, the Balkans, and so on...
I know and have heard tons of reports of what you and people in the USA will never hear of. The proof of injustice is the amount of Serbian leaders in Hague (many) vs. Albanians (none)...(not that I believe they were not responsible to some degree...) Yes, the winner writes the history, but not the justice...

Thousands of Albanians died, but also 2000 Serbs and thousands of non-Albanians are gone, and 250,000 Serbs never returned to Kosovo, and never will...

Now, back to topic of the thread -- similar situation is going on in Ossetia and Georgia -- we always have the region sensitive to Russia ready to explode when needed.... After the military training last week that we spent with Georgian forces, this thing exploded. And no, the Russians did NOT start it (just like the Serbs did not either in 1998)...

As I said before -- it is unfortunate that showing off between the USA and Russia will cost many lives and huge destruction...again...
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      08-11-2008, 03:04 PM   #44
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Scott, the title should be changed as Russia did not invade Georgia, but Georgia invaded Ossetia instead...
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