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      01-22-2025, 11:08 AM   #1
DW_CT9A
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3 months in and how that's going.

Hello all. Thought i'd post some about my unexpected transformation into euro nerd. Over the last 20 or so years i've had a fair amount of exposure to M cars. Always good times, but Japanese cars just seemed like a more sensible way to feed the ol' car addiction.

But, the E9xM was undeniable. These cars are rather insane and it seems BMW was on a good one back in the early-mid '00s when they cooked this idea up. I drove one on track about 9 years ago and it stuck with me. I finally took the plunge this past September when I sold my S2000 and scooped up a spec i'd always lusted after - E92 in Interlagos over Palladium with CF roof.













The car has kept me busy. I enjoy doing the work myself and the goal has been reliability. So I've done a little preventative maintenance.
-RBs and engine mounts
-Plugs, injectors, fuel tank vent valve
-Clean/lube ITBs and linkage
-MPE V2 & Dinan intake
-OEM rad, WP, T-stat, Exp tank, hoses, hardware etc

The "Me Too" main bearing movement has me worried that it could all be for nothing. Seems everyone is at risk regardless of mileage or use case. (And then you have the guy that bought the 357k mi auction car and it's just happily humming along now with an additional 10k on the odo.)
Currently I'm resisting the urge to sell out of fear that i'm not gonna win the main bearing lottery. I guess that's the price of admission around here.

A friend visited the West Coast for a work thing last week, and we took the Evo and M3 out for some backroad fun. Very different cars so it was a lot of fun trading back and forth.





I've enjoyed the car much so that I wanted a slice of the experience on a daily basis. I also was really keen on trying out the renowned BMW I6 thing. So I sold my trusty 1st gen Honda Insight commuter (70 mpg+) in favor of another E9x. This time a 2007 328i 6MT.



I'm loving this one too. Obviously the N52 isn't an S54 but it's pretty damn sweet in its own right and the fuel economy is hovering around 30. It's a far nicer (and safer) place to spend time when your commute is 108 mi round trip.

So- who else is freaked out about all the main bearing cases coming out of the woodwork?
I think i'm gonna hang in there and hope for the best. This car really hits a sweet spot for me in many ways.
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      01-22-2025, 11:36 AM   #2
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Honestly just drive and don’t worry - it’s a race derived motor, things wear faster. Do what you can on the preventative and maintenance front and accept to some degree that something like a main is out of your control. If something happens to my S65, I’ll rebuild it or replace. My perspective on rods and mains:

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      01-25-2025, 12:54 PM   #3
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I'm working on developing that mentality but it'd be a big chunk of cash to rebuild/replace properly. I wish I could be that casual about it.
There are plenty of race derived production engines that don't suffer from whatever the root cause here is. Design flaw?

This car was a calculated, deliberate buy and a long time coming. It checks a lot of boxes for me. So ultimately I am going to just do what I can, hope for the best, and enjoy it like you said. Although while i'd initially planned on doing some track days with it, i'm going to have to work up to that mentally lol.

The event that pushed me over the edge on this buy was a local dude I met at the track who bought his car new and has been beating the crap out of it regularly for a long time. It started as a DD/weekend warrior but the last 5 years it has transitioned into a track only car and has been supremely reliable. Now it's close to 60k and the engine is untouched internally. Who knows how long that will continue, but that says a lot.

Part of the reason I had 3 S2000s over the last 12 years was because I wanted that kind of durability and reliability in the extreme scenario. A not so fresh F20/F22C can run at least a full race season in something like GLTC without flinching as long as you keep that oil pump fed. While this is a more simple engine, it too is a race derived motor with insane tolerances that is very difficult to rebuild properly. The point is I thought I had come to grips with the S65, but then started seeing all the main bearing cases all over the place.
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      01-25-2025, 01:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW_CT9A View Post
I'm working on developing that mentality but it'd be a big chunk of cash to rebuild/replace properly. I wish I could be that casual about it.
There are plenty of race derived production engines that don't suffer from whatever the root cause here is. Design flaw?

This car was a calculated, deliberate buy and a long time coming. It checks a lot of boxes for me. So ultimately I am going to just do what I can, hope for the best, and enjoy it like you said. Although while i'd initially planned on doing some track days with it, i'm going to have to work up to that mentally lol.

The event that pushed me over the edge on this buy was a local dude I met at the track who bought his car new and has been beating the crap out of it regularly for a long time. It started as a DD/weekend warrior but the last 5 years it has transitioned into a track only car and has been supremely reliable. Now it's close to 60k and the engine is untouched internally. Who knows how long that will continue, but that says a lot.

Part of the reason I had 3 S2000s over the last 12 years was because I wanted that kind of durability and reliability in the extreme scenario. A not so fresh F20/F22C can run at least a full race season in something like GLTC without flinching as long as you keep that oil pump fed. While this is a more simple engine, it too is a race derived motor with insane tolerances that is very difficult to rebuild properly. The point is I thought I had come to grips with the S65, but then started seeing all the main bearing cases all over the place.
The S2000 F20 engine was developed to be a road engine to act like a race engine. The S65 was originally a v10 F1 engine that was modified to be streetable in the M5 and then shrunk down to a v8 in the M3. The S65 is a race engine for the street.
While I understand and agree that these things are a little "unreliable" compared to the F20. It also makes sense as to why. 8400 RPM V8 with ITBs is quite a feat especially considering it was developed in the early 2000s. Add BMW engineering in the mix for extra complication.

It's definitely a pay to play style engine, not unheard-of for BMW especially a "Sxx" engine.
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      01-26-2025, 10:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandoch View Post
The S2000 F20 engine was developed to be a road engine to act like a race engine. The S65 was originally a v10 F1 engine that was modified to be streetable in the M5 and then shrunk down to a v8 in the M3. The S65 is a race engine for the street.
While I understand and agree that these things are a little "unreliable" compared to the F20. It also makes sense as to why. 8400 RPM V8 with ITBs is quite a feat especially considering it was developed in the early 2000s. Add BMW engineering in the mix for extra complication.

It's definitely a pay to play style engine, not unheard-of for BMW especially a "Sxx" engine.
I’ve owned two ap1s and an ap2. They were used for DD’ing as well as street use in the mountains and on track. The f20c and f22a are awesome motors. The f20c has a higher mean piston speeds than f1 engines. The f20c/f22a, s54, s85 and s65 are by far my favorite engines overall including NA, turbo and SC engines.

The s85 NA 5.0L v10 engine was inspired by, not derived from, the F1 P80/P84/P85 NA 3.0 L v10 engine. Similar, the s65 NA 4.0 L v8 was not derived from the F1 P86/6, P86/7 & P86/8 NA 2.4 L v8 engine. S65 is the s85 with two cylinders removed.

P65 race engines were developed from the s65 with engine displacements ranging between 3.6 L to 4.4 L v8s. Additionally, cross-plane and flat-plane crankshaft versions were developed.

Different stroker (and bore) displacement street and/or track versions (4.4 L, 4.5 L, 4.6 L and 4.7 L) of the s65 have been developed for use with a SC or tri-y headers & 292 cams. One s65 4.6 L NA engine with tri-y headers, forward X x-pipe, 292 cams and a Karbonius CF plenum put down 498 whp and 362 lbf-ft. There’s one, possibly two, flat-plane “P65” engines are being custom built.
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      01-26-2025, 12:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
I’ve owned two ap1s and an ap2.
Same. A GPW 2006, a Sebring 2003 and a Monte Carlo Blue 2000. F20C/F22C are fantastic engines and a long time love affair for me but the S65 is the coolest engine i've ever owned and new favorite. All the tech and engineering, and the sound. The sound is insane. So musical and layered. I'll take a cross plane vs a flat plane all day in this instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandoch View Post
The S2000 F20 engine was developed to be a road engine to act like a race engine. The S65 was originally a v10 F1 engine that was modified to be streetable in the M5 and then shrunk down to a v8 in the M3. The S65 is a race engine for the street.
They're really more similar in design and implementation than you might think. They are both mass production engines that were built with critical design constraints like emissions, warranty, and cost but then pumped full of motorsports technology.

F20 design began 5 or so years after Honda McLaren kicked the shit out of everyone else in F1 in the late 80s/early 90s. Honda later returned as an engine supplier in 2000 right about when BMW started supplying F1 engines for Williams. I realize that the S65 blocks were produced concurrently in Landshut while BMW/Sauber were running the works team, but I don't think they were being assembled by the same division working on the F1 engines.

Like the S65, the F20/F22C were bespoke engines not found in any other Honda product. They too had many tricks that were more common in motorsport engines than in street engines:
- Forged pistons with floating wrist pins
- Forged and carburized rods and crank
- Moly coated piston skirts
- FRM cylinder liners. Similar goal to Alusil. Better heat transfer, lower weight, and a more wear resistant surface.
- Again similar to S65, the block uses a 2 piece bedplate design
- Valve spring design borrowed from F1
- The oil pump has proven itself to be reliable for sustained engine speeds of 9500 rpm, possibly more, unlike the more pedestrian k series oil pumps. Dual suction ports. Having had the oil pan off on both my S65 and F20C, I will say that both the pan and the scavenge system on the S65 is more complex and sophisticated (and impressive).

The tolerances on these engines are nuts. Not normal for a mass produced road car engine. Many to the 0.0001". There were 2 "standard" piston sizes and the tolerance for each was 0.0005". The piston would be selected after final machining. Aftermarket rebuilds are a problem for these engines. Few places in the country can be trusted to build an F20/F22C that will both make the power and stay alive.

Having owned both it seems that the F is overall more simple than the S65 but this totally tracks with the approach that Honda and BMW take when building cars. Both are great, just different.
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      01-26-2025, 08:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW_CT9A View Post
Same. A GPW 2006, a Sebring 2003 and a Monte Carlo Blue 2000. F20C/F22C are fantastic engines and a long time love affair for me but the S65 is the coolest engine i've ever owned and new favorite. All the tech and engineering, and the sound. The sound is insane. So musical and layered. I'll take a cross plane vs a flat plane all day in this instance.
The Apex Blue Pearl that was released in 2008 with the DSC system was my favorite exterior color. My wife wouldn’t let me buy another s2000

I owned a ‘00 Silverstone/Red (took delivery in Nov 2000), ‘02 Spa Yellow/Black (took delivery June 2002) and ‘05 GPW/Tan (took delivery in May 2005). All were used as DD especially the GPW which was used from 2005-2009 (traded in for my ‘09 AW/Fox Red e92 M3 ). For the GPW/Tan, I bought a Mugen hardtop, Volk CE28N wheels, Comptech Anti-Sway Bars and Tein RS suspension with piggyback reservoirs. What a difference the hardtop made when it came to having a conversion l made the bad mistake of installing Koni Yellows with H&R springs on the Silverstone/Red.

It required serious commitment when on track. It was actually easier to drive when driven at its high level of handling but don’t lift off the throttle! For example, to beat the e30 M3 with the high-revving s14 2.3 I4.

I do agree with you when it comes to the s65 being an overall superior engine than the f20c/f22a; however, the f20c/f22a, s54 and s65/s85 are by far my favorite engines with rpm redlines and peak power at or close to redline. They all feel like they’ll continue to pull hard well past their redlines.
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      01-26-2025, 10:19 PM   #8
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I don’t have much to add to this honestly and it’d been roughly five months now. I noticed your username and your location(im in Kent). I had an Evo 8(electric blue) for 7 years and drove it every single day with tons of trips down to English racing. Since then I’ve had an e36m3 and e46m3 which I flopped week after week for my daily commute into Redmond. All these cars are high strung but never let me down but the e92 makes me the most worrisome hahah. It’s an amazing motor and everything has been done to make it as reliable as possible because it’s driven every single day. The main bearing issue is always in the back of my mind but I won’t let it take away from all the fun I’m having. I guess I could probably do a blackstone report every now and then just as a checkup on motor health
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      01-26-2025, 11:03 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
I’ve owned two ap1s and an ap2. They were used for DD’ing as well as street use in the mountains and on track. The f20c and f22a are awesome motors. The f20c has a higher mean piston speeds than f1 engines. The f20c/f22a, s54, s85 and s65 are by far my favorite engines overall including NA, turbo and SC engines.

The s85 NA 5.0L v10 engine was inspired by, not derived from, the F1 P80/P84/P85 NA 3.0 L v10 engine. Similar, the s65 NA 4.0 L v8 was not derived from the F1 P86/6, P86/7 & P86/8 NA 2.4 L v8 engine. S65 is the s85 with two cylinders removed.

P65 race engines were developed from the s65 with engine displacements ranging between 3.6 L to 4.4 L v8s. Additionally, cross-plane and flat-plane crankshaft versions were developed.

Different stroker (and bore) displacement street and/or track versions (4.4 L, 4.5 L, 4.6 L and 4.7 L) of the s65 have been developed for use with a SC or tri-y headers & 292 cams. One s65 4.6 L NA engine with tri-y headers, forward X x-pipe, 292 cams and a Karbonius CF plenum put down 498 whp and 362 lbf-ft. There’s one, possibly two, flat-plane “P65” engines are being custom built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DW_CT9A View Post
They're really more similar in design and implementation than you might think. They are both mass production engines that were built with critical design constraints like emissions, warranty, and cost but then pumped full of motorsports technology.

F20 design began 5 or so years after Honda McLaren kicked the shit out of everyone else in F1 in the late 80s/early 90s. Honda later returned as an engine supplier in 2000 right about when BMW started supplying F1 engines for Williams. I realize that the S65 blocks were produced concurrently in Landshut while BMW/Sauber were running the works team, but I don't think they were being assembled by the same division working on the F1 engines.

Like the S65, the F20/F22C were bespoke engines not found in any other Honda product. They too had many tricks that were more common in motorsport engines than in street engines:
- Forged pistons with floating wrist pins
- Forged and carburized rods and crank
- Moly coated piston skirts
- FRM cylinder liners. Similar goal to Alusil. Better heat transfer, lower weight, and a more wear resistant surface.
- Again similar to S65, the block uses a 2 piece bedplate design
- Valve spring design borrowed from F1
- The oil pump has proven itself to be reliable for sustained engine speeds of 9500 rpm, possibly more, unlike the more pedestrian k series oil pumps. Dual suction ports. Having had the oil pan off on both my S65 and F20C, I will say that both the pan and the scavenge system on the S65 is more complex and sophisticated (and impressive).

The tolerances on these engines are nuts. Not [...]
Fair enough.
I don't have much Honda experience, nor do I like them (except the S2000). I've never driven one, but I would love to.
I assumed the S65 had more racing roots then derived from racing.
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      01-27-2025, 12:54 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post

I do agree with you when it comes to the s65 being an overall superior engine than the f20c/f22a; however, the f20c/f22a, s54 and s65/s85 are by far my favorite engines with rpm redlines and peak power at or close to redline. They all feel like they’ll continue to pull hard well past their redlines.
F22A/B were single cam engines found in Accord etc
F20C and F22C were S2K. The 'C' was the only differentiator even though it shared basically nothing with the rest of the F engine family. It shared more with the K in many ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
The Apex Blue Pearl that was released in 2008 with the DSC system was my favorite exterior color. My wife wouldn’t let me buy another s2000

I owned a ‘00 Silverstone/Red (took delivery in Nov 2000), ‘02 Spa Yellow/Black (took delivery June 2002) and ‘05 GPW/Tan (took delivery in May 2005). All were used as DD especially the GPW which was used from 2005-2009 (traded in for my ‘09 AW/Fox Red e92 M3 ). For the GPW/Tan, I bought a Mugen hardtop, Volk CE28N wheels, Comptech Anti-Sway Bars and Tein RS suspension with piggyback reservoirs. What a difference the hardtop made when it came to having a conversion l made the bad mistake of installing Koni Yellows with H&R springs on the Silverstone/Red.
Nice lineup. The GPW with the Mugen hardtop is a good look.

I had some Koni's with Ground Controls on my last one. Swapped them out for a set of custom built Bilstein B14s from Ankeny Racing. What a difference. I had TracTives on my 2003...those were amazing.
Actually all 2006-09 cars went to drive-by-wire and had stability control- Honda called it VSA and it sucked. Not optimized for performance driving like MDM or PASM. An Apex Blue CR would for sure be a long term keeper. It's probably for the best that prices went nuts. My wife is pretty tolerant of my "hobby" but I think she'd be royally pissed if I bought another one. I think i'm done though for real.
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      01-27-2025, 12:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Blkjhnson View Post
I don’t have much to add to this honestly and it’d been roughly five months now. I noticed your username and your location(im in Kent). I had an Evo 8(electric blue) for 7 years and drove it every single day with tons of trips down to English racing. Since then I’ve had an e36m3 and e46m3 which I flopped week after week for my daily commute into Redmond. All these cars are high strung but never let me down but the e92 makes me the most worrisome hahah. It’s an amazing motor and everything has been done to make it as reliable as possible because it’s driven every single day. The main bearing issue is always in the back of my mind but I won’t let it take away from all the fun I’m having. I guess I could probably do a blackstone report every now and then just as a checkup on motor health
If one of us smokes a main, we can setup a local support group. Haha.
Frozen silver? Nice! I'll keep an eye out. I commute to SeaTac airport. Did you just get lucky and find that locally? Not sure i've seen a Frozen Silver in person yet.

Electric blue...always wanted one. Tough to find one in good shape. Mitsubishi really knew how to paint em haha. I would love an e36 or e46 m3. I've probably had the most seat time in the e46 m3 and it's the right size, weight and feel. Pricey nowadays! Wish I could. The e36 seems like it's that but even more the right size and weight. I have enough cars that are getting old though and I don't want to deal with anymore old car problems. Maybe one day. I did get a few right seat laps in a LHD euro spec e36 m3 last spring up at Evergreen autox. It was cool to experience the euro engine.

Last edited by DW_CT9A; 01-27-2025 at 01:14 AM..
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      01-27-2025, 01:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
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Fair enough.
I don't have much Honda experience, nor do I like them (except the S2000). I've never driven one, but I would love to.
I assumed the S65 had more racing roots then derived from racing.
Definitely worth a try when you get a chance! The car was softened over the years...for better and for worse. Mostly suspension and creature comforts. Even little details like the density of the seat foam. 2004-09 were more forgiving at the limit in stock config.
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      01-27-2025, 02:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Fair enough.
I don't have much Honda experience, nor do I like them (except the S2000). I've never driven one, but I would love to.
I assumed the S65 had more racing roots then derived from racing.
You’ll absolutely love the s2000 if you haven’t driven one. Obviously, its acceleration is slow based on current cars but it feels like you’re in a single seater when the top is done. The 6MT and its shifter is phenomenal. It’s the best 6MT I’ve driven, even better than the NA1 NSX 6MT. The f20c 2.0 L I4 with its 9k rpm redline with the top down is a such a thrill. The f22a 2.2 L I4 with an 8.2k rpm driving experience is different but just as thrilling. I regret trading in my ‘05 Grand Prix White s2000. I agree with you on the rest of the Honda lineup being meh although I’d like to give the current Civic TypeR a drive.

The s65 went from being a primary street engine to developed into different versions of P65s. Although, the s65 does feel and drive like it’s a bespoke race engine!
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      01-27-2025, 07:13 PM   #14
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Nice lineup. The GPW with the Mugen hardtop is a good look.

I had some Koni's with Ground Controls on my last one. Swapped them out for a set of custom built Bilstein B14s from Ankeny Racing. What a difference. I had TracTives on my 2003...those were amazing.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Not sure why i kept typing f22a? My brain is the only thing that hasn’t started to fail yet so i hope this isn’t a sign of new things to come…

I loved the look of the GPW with Mugen hardtop. I had it painted a matte black so it still had the look of the soft top from a distance but quickly changed appearance as you got closer. I’ve always wondered what the matte black Mugen hardtop would’ve looked like on a new formula red s2000? I guess I’ll never know. A friend is using the hardtop on his s2000 race car racing in Canada.

The Tein RS piggybacks with 650 lbf/in springs front and rear. It handled great on track and, with compression and rebound damping turned down for the street, it had a nice street ride quality. However, when I installed Moton 2-way remotes on my ‘03.5 e46 M3 I was blown away by their on track performance and shocked by their amazingly compliant street ride with F/R 750/1000 lbf/in springs.

I’m assuming in the early ‘00s, the TracTives were conventional dampers (i.e., not semi-active which weren’t released until ~2013-2014)? I was considering a set of 3-way semi-actives in 2013 when MCS was still developing their new clean-sheet damper designs. Lack of US damper service prevented me from buying the 3-ways. I’ve been a MCS supporter since my first set of 2WR dampers on one of my e92 M3s.

Honda needs to release another 2-door convertible sports car. Unfortunately, it would be nothing like the ap1/ap2 s2000
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      01-28-2025, 07:20 AM   #15
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Yeah, not sure about Honda/Acura these days. Sounds like the quality that they were once famous for has slipped a little, at least on the vehicles produced here. That's coming from dealer techs. I haven't personally owned any newer Honda products. Except for my lawnmower, which has been great.

Tein has the ability to make some really nice stuff. I worked for a shop for a little over 10 years and we sold and installed a lot of their stuff. Unfortunately the vast majority of the product sold here is their low end stuff. Their really high end rally stuff was pretty cool, but at $3k+ per shock we never saw it.

The TracTive's I had on the s2k were custom built by Inertia Labs out of TX. They were just conventional 1WNRs but I had a similar reaction to your Moton experience. They were so buttery smooth and compliant even with big spring rates and the best performance i'd seen on track thus far. They had more travel than the Ohlins R&T and seemed to handle anything I could throw at them.

Your buddy needs to take that Mugen hardtop off and put on one of RSG's replicas! Those things are already worth a pretty penny and I think the price will just keep climbing.
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