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      08-20-2010, 02:56 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Freedoms are usually a wonderful thing. Most often, they provide the society-improving benefits they are intended to provide. Sometimes, they are leveraged/exploited/twisted in a way that does not necessarily violate the letter of the law, so you have limited legal recourse to stop such exploitation.

If I lived next door to a 9/11 widow, it would be perfectly legal for me to put up a small sign on my property that said "I am not opposed to Al Qaeda". I would be breaking no law, as long as the sign was small enough to not run afoul of any local bylaws.

Obviously, it would be incredibly insensitive for me to do so, and you could also argue that it would be impossible to believe that I could not predict or anticipate any impending backlash from the other area residents for doing so. If I woke up one morning after a week to find the sign destroyed, or other vandalism against my property, then it would be crazy for me to be surprised in any way, unless I was surprised that it took so long for the vandalism to occur.

Yes, technically the people who vandalized my house did break the law, whereas I did not. Nevertheless, you'd really have to ask yourself; what was I thinking, what was I trying to accomplish? An imbecile could have predicted the response to my very legal (yet foolish) act. My actions become even more absurd if you assume a context that I was already looked upon with suspicion and wariness by others in the neighborhood.

Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. Muslims have been complaining for years that they are negatively discriminated against due to unjustified associations to 9/11. Many of those complaints are legitimate. However, if your goal is to reduce that, why why why would you choose to do things that, while legal, are doing you no favors at all with respect to how your group is seen or perceived by others. Surely they cannot be so stupid to not forsee this would hinder rather than help their cause. Why would they choose to work against their own best interests when there are a million other places to construct such a place.
This is the saddest part. If it gets built, some idiot is going to attack it. That could be anything from spitting on the sidewalk in front of it, to (insert name of higher being here Allah, God etc.) forbid doing something that endangers those worshiping there. This will be devistating to the intrafaith relations in America and the world.

This is one of the main reasons many people are so suspicious of the Imam's motivations. You can't say your motivation for building the mosque is to improve interfaith relations when everyone knows what you're doing is going to hurt those relations.
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      08-20-2010, 03:20 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Comet View Post

The bold part is what I'm talking about, it isn't irrelevant because the world shouldn't give in to the ignorance of the masses.
The problem is that it is, as of today at least, IRRELEVANT. Should it be irrelevant ? Of course not. Would the world be a better place if it were not irrelevant ? Obviously the answer is yes. Will we get there someday ? Hopefully; even in the 1990s, I bet the idea of a black president would be considered absurd.

But, are we there yet ? Nope. Not even close. To behave as if we are, to ignore the unfortunate realities of the world today, is not in anyone's best interest.

Exercise your legitimate legal right to build a mosque there, and you are asking for trouble, especially with 9/11 so fresh in many people's minds. Their claim that it is intended to improve relations is total BS, and very disingenuous. IMHO, they must have an alternative agenda which relies upon some anti-muslim activist doing something like we predict, and then the muslim community can leverage that to justify some other drastic response. An action which would seem outrageous today, given the lack of provocation. Anyone who cannot see there is baiting happening here, well, I'd love you to come over to my place for a game of poker !
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      08-21-2010, 04:30 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by mfeltiii View Post
This is the saddest part. If it gets built, some idiot is going to attack it. That could be anything from spitting on the sidewalk in front of it, to (insert name of higher being here Allah, God etc.) forbid doing something that endangers those worshiping there. This will be devistating to the intrafaith relations in America and the world.

This is one of the main reasons many people are so suspicious of the Imam's motivations. You can't say your motivation for building the mosque is to improve interfaith relations when everyone knows what you're doing is going to hurt those relations.
To not build the Mosque at ground zero would hurt interfaith relations much more than if we built it and a few idiots attacked it. The idiots that would attack it are no better than the terrorists that attacked us.

To not build it would represent a much larger group of Americans making an incorrect stand against Islam. A few idiotic attackers, much like the terrorists would be viewed as no more than the irrational idiots they are. Everyone knows the idiots would not represent the sentiments of the US as a whole. Much like the mentally ill terrorists do not represent the sentiments of muslems.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 08-21-2010 at 08:25 PM.
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      08-22-2010, 12:14 PM   #114
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Someone blowing it up and killing everyone inside ala twin towers would not be better for anyone.
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      08-23-2010, 05:21 AM   #115
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http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reason...akes-no-sense/

I found this pretty interesting

and please.. so fresh in their minds.. you make it seem as if it happened 3 weeks ago.. it has been 10yrs, get over it!
and yes, I know what terrorist attacks feel like, I was born in a warzone and I lived through wars.. I've almost been collateral damage to a bombing...
I looked back in my rear view and saw that where I was not 2 mins ago was now smoke and ash and dead politician bodies...
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      08-23-2010, 01:07 PM   #116
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Ron Paul's comments:

by Rep. Ron Paul, August 23, 2010
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Is the controversy over building a mosque near Ground Zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “Ground Zero.”

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion, it has come from the neoconservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for ill-conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The 19 suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong anti-American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al-Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult, if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us, but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition, conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the Left, which now claims to defend the property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, defends the property rights of American private businesses.

Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam – the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is repeatedly said that 64 percent of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75 percent of the people insisted that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as much as individual dictators. Statistics of support are irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society – protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque near Ground Zero implies that Islam itself was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the 19 suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neoconservatives’ aggressive wars.

The House speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding an investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque – a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the rule of law – in order to look tough against Islam.

This is all about hate and Islamophobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the Right and the Left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.
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      08-23-2010, 08:26 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfeltiii View Post
Someone blowing it up and killing everyone inside ala twin towers would not be better for anyone.
Yup, I couldn't agree more. I, like many thousands of others, think it would be wrong if there was retaliation. However, I also accept the reality that it doesn't matter how strongly I or others feel that way, as long as there is a fringe element who dont, then building this structure there will increase the chance of that happening.

Just like how the 9/11 terrorists do not represent the views of the majority of muslims, if you were to fast-forward into the future, and find that some other fringe group fire-bombed this mosque, I'd bet the group claiming responsbility would not represent the views of the majority of the non-muslim citizens of NY either. I'd bet even the 60-ish % who oppose this would rather it not get built, instead of being built and then people being harmed or killed later.

Problem is, it doesnt matter what we think. The small fringe will try and fabricate a justification for doing awful things, the last thing we need to do is help them with that by gift-wrapping one and hand-delivering it to them, which is what would happen IMHO if this gets built at this spot.

It has been 10 yrs, and for those people who have either lost a loved one, or personally knew someone who perished, those wounds are still very raw, especially for a people who are not at all used to being attacked on their own home soil. People who were born & raised in a war zone are more used to or desensitized to that, so they have an additional challenge understanding the emotions of someone who is the first person of many generations of their family to have to endure something like that. It is unrealistic to expect them to respond the same way. Unfair or not, it is what it is. It is always always always to your advantage to govern yourself according to how things are, not how things "should be".
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      08-24-2010, 05:48 AM   #118
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the funny thing is most of those crazy radicals that want to bomb the mosque if it gets built will probably not even find it unless they google it..
And judging from their lack of information, they probably don't know how to do that.. Considering they don't even see the irony that they themselves want to do to innocent people what those suicide bombers did to other innocent people..
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      08-24-2010, 02:31 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfeltiii View Post
Someone blowing it up and killing everyone inside ala twin towers would not be better for anyone.
True, that would not be a good outcome, but we never have, still don't and never will make decision as a nation based on the fear of what MIGHT happen. That's what makes this a great country. So, in this case, the possibility of someone attacking the Mosque should not and will not be considered. If we start making decisions based on fear, then we will cease to be the most powerful nation in the world, and will then be considered a nation of cowards. The long term negative effects of being considered a cowardice nation would far outweigh the negatives of an attack on the Mosque. Good leaders always consider the long term effects, thus I trust our leaders will make the proper decision and build the Mosque.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 08-24-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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      08-24-2010, 06:52 PM   #120
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will someone please blow up this thread?
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      08-24-2010, 07:57 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by ellipsis212 View Post
will someone please blow up this thread?
this is the religion and politics section.
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      08-24-2010, 10:17 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by ellipsis212 View Post
will someone please blow up this thread?
Are we being to combative for you? Ok, you pick a subject related to Politics and/or Religion that won't initiate any kind of debate.
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      08-25-2010, 12:08 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
Are we being to combative for you? Ok, you pick a subject related to Politics and/or Religion that won't initiate any kind of debate.
of course, i'm always surprised at how much interest the rest of the country takes in NYC when it comes to 9/11, ground zero etc. for the most part i get the feeling that 'Merica hates New York even though we are, perhaps, the closest thing to the American dream out there.

hey check this out:Islamic NYC Cabbie Throat Slashed By Passenger

what say you gun-totin', born-again tea partiers? you commie pinko vegan ****? everyone in between?
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      08-25-2010, 12:16 PM   #124
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who's the terrorist now... :/
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      08-25-2010, 12:45 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellipsis212 View Post
of course, i'm always surprised at how much interest the rest of the country takes in NYC when it comes to 9/11, ground zero etc. for the most part i get the feeling that 'Merica hates New York even though we are, perhaps, the closest thing to the American dream out there.

hey check this out:Islamic NYC Cabbie Throat Slashed By Passenger

what say you gun-totin', born-again tea partiers? you commie pinko vegan ****? everyone in between?
I'm not one of the New Yorker haters. I'm a native of the state.... from Syracuse. However, I do hate the NY Yankees with a passion.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 08-25-2010 at 12:50 PM.
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      08-25-2010, 01:09 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
However, I do hate the NY Yankees with a passion.
Noooooooo! That's what this whole mosque controversy is about: those who love the Yankees and everyone else who hates them

We should all get together at Dinosaur BBQ and invite our Muslim friends to discuss this mosque construction over a couple of pulled pork sandwiches and some cold Genny Cream Ale.
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      08-25-2010, 03:12 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by ellipsis212 View Post
Noooooooo! That's what this whole mosque controversy is about: those who love the Yankees and everyone else who hates them

We should all get together at Dinosaur BBQ and invite our Muslim friends to discuss this mosque construction over a couple of pulled pork sandwiches and some cold Genny Cream Ale.
Ah Yes, the famous Dinosaur BBQ in downtown Syracuse. Obama can bring the beer.
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      08-25-2010, 03:43 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellipsis212 View Post
of course, i'm always surprised at how much interest the rest of the country takes in NYC when it comes to 9/11, ground zero etc. for the most part i get the feeling that 'Merica hates New York even though we are, perhaps, the closest thing to the American dream out there.
I don't know that the America necessarily hates NY, I actually love it and get along with the majority of people I've met from there. It is this prevailing "holier than thou" attitude that some NYers have towards the rest of the country and their opinions is what people, myself included, detest. Living in the largest US city you should expect the interest taken in your city.

Further, the American dream is something completely arbitrary and different to everyone - don't assume your own interpretation is commonly accepted. For many, the American dream is living in a nice small town, working and living off the land, and otherwise living a humble and out of the spotlight existence. It's not mine, certainly isn't yours, but for these people's American dream, NYC is far from an ideal locale.

Apologize for the interjection. Unfortunately I don't have enough information at this point to make an educated comment on this Mosque controversy, so I will keep my initial "knee jerk" reaction to myself.
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      08-26-2010, 05:48 PM   #129
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Most of us Americans seem to have this strange desire to hold a grudge forEVER. I can't tell you how humbled I was to tour the memorial in Nagasaki when I visited there. The Japanese people were not interested in retaliation and decrying the complete foulness of the Americans. They memorial was made to make sure this never happens again to ANYONE. While Americans certainly were killed violently in the twin towers, it pales in comparison to what WE did to those Japanese cities. Any yet the Japanese were able to forego the need for retaliation and concentrate on the greater good of humanity, WITHOUT FORGETTING the horror.

Could this mosque, near the site of such atrocity, be a first step in healing the hearts of Americans? Could this cultural center provide a means to demonstrate that Islam is not an evil empire-building band of radicals hell-bent on total destruction and domination of the US?

Just for the record, I'm born, raised, and confirmed Roman Catholic, with grandparents who leaglly immigrated from Germany and Ireland.
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      08-26-2010, 05:57 PM   #130
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It would be more "healing" for me if muslim Imams who blame America for 9/11 and say America has more innocent "blood on its hands" than Al Queda chose to not build a 15 story (victory) mosque at Ground Zero. How bout that?
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      08-26-2010, 07:46 PM   #131
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I think people are fucking confused. They're taking an entire religion: an entire religion, and are considering them ALL terrorists because some select extremists in that religion caused 9/11. It's stupid. People say that it's a religion full of hate, lack of rights, etc.

If I were to cut down the Bible piece-by-piece, I'd find some ridiculous things in there too that makes Christianity seem like an extremely restrictive and hating religion. But people like to pick-and-choose, so they'll conveniently ignore those little quotes from the Bible

Dear America: stop being fucking ignorant and retarded.
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      08-27-2010, 08:58 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Most of us Americans seem to have this strange desire to hold a grudge forEVER. I can't tell you how humbled I was to tour the memorial in Nagasaki when I visited there. The Japanese people were not interested in retaliation and decrying the complete foulness of the Americans. They memorial was made to make sure this never happens again to ANYONE. While Americans certainly were killed violently in the twin towers, it pales in comparison to what WE did to those Japanese cities. Any yet the Japanese were able to forego the need for retaliation and concentrate on the greater good of humanity, WITHOUT FORGETTING the horror.

Could this mosque, near the site of such atrocity, be a first step in healing the hearts of Americans? Could this cultural center provide a means to demonstrate that Islam is not an evil empire-building band of radicals hell-bent on total destruction and domination of the US?

Just for the record, I'm born, raised, and confirmed Roman Catholic, with grandparents who leaglly immigrated from Germany and Ireland.
What happened to hiroshima and nagasaki happened during wartime. Those two bombs saved more lives than they took. I know that sounds like rationalizing, cause it is. But in this very rare case, it is hard to deny the fact that if we hadn't dropped those bombs we would have been forced to invade the mainland and the amount of Americans and Japanese killed and wounded would have been astronomical.

What happened on 9/11 was not during war time. However, those who committed the acts of terrorism believe they are at war with the U.S. The reasoning behind the 9/11 attacks was to damage our financial system and subsequent way of life. The reasoning behind the manhattan project was a swift and decisive end to a war.

Can we really compare the two?
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