Spa Trackday: BIBLICAL FL brake failure (Glowing Disc!)

[monsta]

Originally Posted by VictorH

How many times have you been to the track? I just got back from 2 days at VIR (Potomac Audi club, did a great job running this HPDE). Like you I have RS19s and high temp fluid, everything else is stock. Ran a bit over 240 miles on the track over two days, threshold braking and getting up to 1.1 g's of braking force (on old OEM Continential Contact sport tires with 18K miles and 6 track days, 4/32" tread) by VBox and no fade whatsoever. I ran this same set up at Road America at the O'fest for over 500 miles and also no fade.

Maybe it's some of the pro drivers who are having trouble, but myself and others have not had trouble with this. If you want another opinion call and ask to speak to Matt, Mike, Paul, Allison or one of the other instructors at the Performance Center and they'll tell you the same thing. I was at CMP which is really a brake heavy track which is why lots of people are not big fans of that track and we ran the Perf Center cars there all day, hard, with stock street pads and again no fade.

I'm not saying that this is not an issue, clearly some good drivers have had problems with loss of braking performance at some tracks, but like lots of other issues (DCT lag, spitting power steering pump reservoirs, etc) I think the magnitude of the problem has been inflated.

I've only done two days back in Oct. on Thunderbolt @ NJMP and I experienced fade, towards the end of each day....I was on PS2's on RACs, stock pads, stock lines, & upgraded fluid (wanted to run this way to see how stock system felt even though I've had the RS19's in my closet for a while)

Now that I'm really jumping in head first (after much delay) I'll put the Pagids in, getting lines installed, fluid changed, on OEM 18's w/ PS2's until I get bumped up then I'll be making swap to Rcompounds for dry days. I'm fully aware that for my current skill level these brakes will be adequate enough w/ the minor upgrades (still in need of brake ducts though IMO)

Originally Posted by rldzhao

Hey Monsta,

When you reach the limit of your brakes, you will know.

Hopefully its not too late, I do have a good feel for the car when its being pushed, during previous trackdays I dialed it back when I felt fade & to allow them to cool down a bit before pitting in

For the first couple track days they will work just fine.

When you start to get fade and/or vibration after track day, that's when you should get a BBK.

had minor vibration towards end of both days & especially after second day and about a week after but probably due to brake residue on the pads--it went away after awhile, pads won't get me through another trackday, will swap them out and then back in after trackday

Enjoy and be safe my friend Can't believe it's been almost three years already.
I can't believe its been 3yrs already either, I haven't been spending too much time here as I would like you know that thing called life & priorities getting in the way but trying to spend more time here nowadays since track season is here & just trying to catch up on any issues/mods that I may benefit from...big fan of your new car even though I loved the REDBULL very much especially seeing it in person at Bimmerstock

[KGB7]

Im with OP on this one. Once you start going fast you need good breaks. People that are slow on the track are the drivers that use engine to slow down the car 1/4mile before a turn. PLus you have to take in to consideration that M3 is heavy car and not a hatchback civic that can run on eom breaks most of the day at the track.

The common sense should kick in which tells you that eom breaks are crap is when you see one piston break calipers.

The only way eom breaks would survive if you sprayed them with liquid nitrogen at every corner or other liquid gas to cool them down.


Ive been to Summit point for many years and i have seen great drivers cook eom breaks with little effort.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by KGB7

Im with OP on this one. Once you start going fast you need good breaks. People that are slow on the track are the drivers that use engine to slow down the car 1/4mile before a turn. PLus you have to take in to consideration that M3 is heavy car and not a hatchback civic that can run on eom breaks most of the day at the track.

The common sense should kick in which tells you that eom breaks are crap is when you see one piston break calipers.

The only way eom breaks would survive if you sprayed them with liquid nitrogen at every corner or other liquid gas to cool them down.


Ive been to Summit point for many years and i have seen great drivers cook eom breaks with little effort.

In my books, a good driver is someone that goes fast without cooking anything, including the brakes. I've only met a few, though, and I'm still working on being one myself.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by JAJ

In my books, a good driver is someone that goes fast without cooking anything, including the brakes. I've only met a few, though, and I'm still working on being one myself.

In many race cars (e.g. an F1) a careless driver can cook brakes, tires, engine, gearbox at will. Managing them is a part of the skill/art.

[elh0102]

Certainly there are brake systems that have higher limits than the OE brakes. It is obviously easier to exceed the limit of anything, when compared to something possessing a higher limit. If considering brakes, good driver, novice, or someone in between, makes no difference, as the driver doesn’t change the mechanical limit. A very good driver can more effectively utilize the greater capacity of bigger brakes. That same driver, if so inclined, can ignore the lower limits of the OE system, which could result in the kind of meltdown shown above. IMO, that seems to indicate a certain immaturity as a driver, since ego is winning the conflict with intelligence. It takes nothing either from the driver’s ability, or the capacity of the brakes. Each is what it is.

[KGB7]

Originally Posted by JAJ

In my books, a good driver is someone that goes fast without cooking anything, including the brakes. I've only met a few, though, and I'm still working on being one myself.

Sure when you have a thousands of $$ spent on brakes, the way to kill them is ride them none stop as you hold the gas pedal down.

But when you are used to quality racing brakes and you jump on a car with oem brakes, the old driving habits are still there, thus oem brakes cant candle the demand and torture that the racing brakes have provided you with time after time.


I want to see your so called good driver have same exact lap times with oem brakes as he did with $10k brakes. Guess what, it will never happen.


I'll bet, Michael Schumacher could win any F1 race with brakes from a 1975 Mustang installed on his F1 race car. He is a very very good driver, so it shouldnt be a problem for him.. right?

[Jeff_DML]

brakes...

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by KGB7

Sure when you have a thousands of $$ spent on brakes, the way to kill them is ride them none stop as you hold the gas pedal down.

But when you are used to quality racing brakes and you jump on a car with oem brakes, the old driving habits are still there, thus oem brakes cant candle the demand and torture that the racing brakes have provided you with time after time.


I want to see your so called good driver have same exact lap times with oem brakes as he did with $10k brakes. Guess what, it will never happen.


I'll bet, Michael Schumacher could win any F1 race with brakes from a 1975 Mustang installed on his F1 race car. He is a very very good driver, so it shouldnt be a problem for him.. right?

The issue isn't whether bigger brakes allow faster laps, it's whether a good driver overdrives the brakes they are presented with. In my view, a good driver extracts what the car can deliver without killing it. You can't win a race if you don't finish.

[KGB7]

Originally Posted by JAJ

The issue isn't whether bigger brakes allow faster laps, it's whether a good driver overdrives the brakes they are presented with. In my view, a good driver extracts what the car can deliver without killing it. You can't win a race if you don't finish.

If you only extract what the car can deliver with out killing it, then you going slow. My dog can drive the car a round the track at 5mph with out killing it, but she wont be setting any new records any time soon. But when you start pushing the car past its limit as you try to get better lap time, shit will start breaking.


So you have two choices; become captain slow but you wont kill anything, or go fast till the wheels fall off. Option three, you upgrade to better hardware that was designed to withstand the beating lap after lap.


p.s.

Be sure you call every F1 team and tell them they need to stop dumping money in to their brake systems and all the R&D behind it.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by KGB7

If you only extract what the car can deliver with out killing it, then you going slow. My dog can drive the car a round the track at 5mph with out killing it, but she wont be setting any new records any time soon. But when you start pushing the car past its limit as you try to get better lap time, shit will start breaking.


So you have two choices; become captain slow but you wont kill anything, or go fast till the wheels fall off. Option three, you upgrade to better hardware that was designed to withstand the beating lap after lap.


p.s.

Be sure you call every F1 team and tell them they need to stop dumping money in to their brake systems and all the R&D behind it.

I'm sure "captain winner" would be fine with them.

[KGB7]

Originally Posted by JAJ

I'm sure "captain winner" would be fine with them.

With stock OEM brakes? Im sure he would if he drives at posted State speed limit.

Honestly, why do you think race cars have brakes systems that are worth half the price of a stock M3?? Please tell me why they dont use PepBoys brakes instead??

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by KGB7

Sure when you have a thousands of $$ spent on brakes, the way to kill them is ride them none stop as you hold the gas pedal down.

But when you are used to quality racing brakes and you jump on a car with oem brakes, the old driving habits are still there, thus oem brakes cant candle the demand and torture that the racing brakes have provided you with time after time.


I want to see your so called good driver have same exact lap times with oem brakes as he did with $10k brakes. Guess what, it will never happen.


I'll bet, Michael Schumacher could win any F1 race with brakes from a 1975 Mustang installed on his F1 race car. He is a very very good driver, so it shouldnt be a problem for him.. right?

There is no way, not even Michael can pull it off. He will be in the cat litter if his F1 race car had 1975 mustang brakes installed, he will probably make it to the first corner, then straight off of it because the car would not slow down enough on those brakes for him to go through the corner.

[RussRamz]

I have to agree with the OP. I have a Z4M Coupe which I spend a lot of time on the Nurburgring. Before I installed a set of Stoptechs, I had brake failure after 3 hard laps at Breidsheid and put the car into the concrete retaining wall at the bridge doing 16K Euro in damage. If I had a descent set of brakes, the car would be undamaged. BMW brakes suck.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by KGB7

With stock OEM brakes? Im sure he would if he drives at posted State speed limit.

Honestly, why do you think race cars have brakes systems that are worth half the price of a stock M3?? Please tell me why they dont use PepBoys brakes instead??

Dude, chill. All @JAJ saying is if you're a good driver, you won't cook your brakes. He is not saying you will brake lap records with stock brakes. Just brake a little easy/early whatever... At the end HPDEs are for fun, not for racing..