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      08-06-2018, 07:29 PM   #6491
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i could see it being tedious in wheel to wheel. aside from that, doesn't look like a big deal. i could see lifting being a problem if someone has commitment issues.
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      08-06-2018, 07:54 PM   #6492
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Most cars depart the carousel in the 90+ mph neighborhood. The kink is blind until you’re committed, you’ve been wot for a 10th of a mile or so since leaving the carousel with whatever extra speed that gives you, and the track falls away slightly.

In any car with grip matched roughly to power to weight, it’s easy flat, right up until it’s not. It’s always somehow right at the threshold for flat-out in most cars, so long as everything is going great. Out lap, LOFT, or it’s a bit slippy, or you have a handling issue, somebody lifts in front of you, you need to pass traffic, yada, hang on. I have been saving the car all the way out to where that Merc ended up more than once because of one of those factors or another. thankfully I have always been lucky enough to come out facing the right way with the throttle still pegged

Because of that almost-easy vibe, people run out of talent and real estate at the same time a lot there. You can count on at least one yard sale there every weekend.

You have to drive it to get it

As for the triggering incident...yeah not kink specific. You botch the exit of a fast corner like the carousel you’re gonna have neighbors in the next corner

Last edited by Richbot; 08-06-2018 at 08:10 PM..
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      08-06-2018, 11:06 PM   #6493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
i could see it being tedious in wheel to wheel. aside from that, doesn't look like a big deal. i could see lifting being a problem if someone has commitment issues.
Also, this corner was there 60 years ago and if you've ever driven a racecar from the 60s, well... things were much more complicated then.

Out of the carousel, the kink is the only thing between two straights, the second of which is relatively long. If you don't push it through that corner your times will suffer disproportionately. Add to that its a relatively close wall with not much run out and... its not complicated.
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      08-07-2018, 12:07 AM   #6494
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i'm not really seeing what the big deal is, but thats easy to say when i haven't been there.

we have a track out here called willow springs. it features a huge, high speed, decreasing radius turn. it has a pretty large runoff, but it is basically desert landscape. this kink is less complicated than turn 8-9 at big willow. i think people just have commitment issues.
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      08-07-2018, 01:41 AM   #6495
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Is there general wisdom on the way to move to solid bushings in the front that everyone follows? Does anyone *regret* taking any particular rubber/poly out?
The FCAB monoballs? Don't get the Turner ones. Failed on me after 2 track days
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      08-07-2018, 09:34 AM   #6496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
i'm not really seeing what the big deal is, but thats easy to say when i haven't been there.

we have a track out here called willow springs. it features a huge, high speed, decreasing radius turn. it has a pretty large runoff, but it is basically desert landscape. this kink is less complicated than turn 8-9 at big willow. i think people just have commitment issues.
Now you're just trolling

Somebody literally died in that corner, recently. It's a big deal.
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      08-07-2018, 10:14 AM   #6497
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It's gotta be one of those things one would have to drive to understand.
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      08-07-2018, 10:58 AM   #6498
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Roast, I know from your posts you are track educated! Any combo of off camber turns plus elevation change like this of course is a recipe for bad things. One wrong lift, brake tap or sloppy steering movement at the wrong sp pi t could totally unload a variety of tires. Looks fun but dangerpus.

Im still shocked more folks dont crash at HPDE. Autockub, laguna, willow etc all have really dangerous parts so I can understand.

The driver above was just being too aggressive on the wrong line and ran out of grip once he slammed the brakes mid corner on an outside line with nowhere to go so ill give you driver error
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      08-07-2018, 01:43 PM   #6499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
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Originally Posted by dparm View Post
This was a bad weekend for racing at RA -- multiple crashes at The Kink. As much as I want to do it as a bucket-list item, seeing shit like this from professionals scares me. I will definitely be getting the insurance.

https://wtf1.com/post/road-americas-...-this-weekend/


In particular, this one is monstrous:

So, someone tell me about the kink... looks like a basic high speed right. What's the big deal? Is there something I'm missing?
It's a fast turn. The outside of the turn from apex to exit has a concrete wall a couple of feet from the outside of the track. I'm not even sure if it's a full car width. The turn is flat and the road is crowned.

There's not a lot of room for error.

I'm at over 100mph GPS in my stock E90 M3 with NT01s at the apex when I'm on it using all of the curbing.

If that curbing is damp, you're in the wall.

I've seen a bunch of crashes between T13/14. People lift when the car gets unloaded from going up hill which causes the car to dart right into the tire barrier on the outside.
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      08-07-2018, 02:10 PM   #6500
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T14, T5 inside wall, T6 inside/outside wall, kink...Road America in general seems to...uh...rely on the safety systems in the car to function as designed
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      08-07-2018, 02:57 PM   #6501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
i'm not really seeing what the big deal is, but thats easy to say when i haven't been there.

we have a track out here called willow springs. it features a huge, high speed, decreasing radius turn. it has a pretty large runoff, but it is basically desert landscape. this kink is less complicated than turn 8-9 at big willow. i think people just have commitment issues.

The fact that many professional drivers are nervous about it, and regularly crash there, should be proof enough of the challenge. That corner is truly legendary.

My understanding is that many people who have issues at that corner may have also goofed on the preceding corner known as The Carousel, and by the time they realize it, it's too late. The entry, apex, and exit are not where you intuitively think they are.

Mario Andretti said, "Then there's the kink. It's flat-out, tremendously quick. You have to really hold your breath going in there, and it's a real challenge to do it perfect. It's very challenging to drive."

Here's a narrated lap that illustrates the difficulty:
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      08-07-2018, 03:49 PM   #6502
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Road America is a really fast track. You can hit 130+ on 3 sections and over 100mph on 3 other occasions in an E9X M3. If I had to guess, you're probably going over 100mph about 1/2 the lap which is insane for a street car.

I'd be mindful that this track eats brake pads.

My E90 M3 at Road America in 2013. Dinan springs, front sway and either NT01s or Conti scrubs. A fast lap ruined by a faster Mustang.

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      08-07-2018, 07:15 PM   #6503
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Question for the e46 guys on here. Changing up the spring rate and spring heights on my TC Kline DA's with some eibach springs.

Went with front 5.5"x 60mm x 650 in/lbs x 60mm helper with a 10 in/lbs rate
Went with rear 5" x 2.25 x 750 in/lbs with GC weight Jacks

Looking to set the rear up at 12.5 - 12.75 center of fender arch to center of wheel and set the front up at 13 - 13.25 center of fender arch to center of wheel. Running 285/30 R7's and have alignment specs all sorted out.

Any recommendations on the ride height and what others have felt car set up wise with different degrees of rake?
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      08-07-2018, 07:23 PM   #6504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty_miller View Post
Question for the e46 guys on here. Changing up the spring rate and spring heights on my TC Kline DA's with some eibach springs.

Went with front 5.5"x 60mm x 650 in/lbs x 60mm helper with a 10 in/lbs rate
Went with rear 5" x 2.25 x 750 in/lbs with GC weight Jacks

Looking to set the rear up at 12.5 - 12.75 center of fender arch to center of wheel and set the front up at 13 - 13.25 center of fender arch to center of wheel. Running 285/30 R7's and have alignment specs all sorted out.

Any recommendations on the ride height and what others have felt car set up wise with different degrees of rake?
I shoot for 13.25F/12.75R. I can't offer any quantitative data to support my decision other than I want to run as low as I can without having front splitter issues.
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      08-07-2018, 09:14 PM   #6505
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i suppose what i was pondering about is what part of it is difficult. keep in mind, i'm not a wheel to wheel guy. i can absolutely see the complication in competition.

it seemed like the difficulty was in the wall being close, "if you go off, you hit the wall."

what can't be seen is some of the videos are things mentioned like undulations in the track, and variables like water on rumble strips.

i was curious about this turn because i know from experience that people start to do goofier shit in the high speed stuff... turn 9 at big willow, the roval at auto club.

its on the list of tracks to visit, so hopefully one of these days i can take a closer look.
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      08-07-2018, 10:38 PM   #6506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I shoot for 12.75F/13.25R. I can't offer any quantitative data to support my decision other than I want to run as low as I can without having front splitter issues.
I thought you were running the opposite - 13.25F/12.75R?

Scotty, I just set mine up to 13.5F/13R, I'm pretty sure anywhere around what Thunder or I have is fine, that gives you plenty of rake when you look at the rocker panel, and when I put it up on a scale, gave me a 49.5% cross weight. I'm on a 275 Nitto and going to be mounting 285 Pirelli's. Shoot me a dm on IG if you need help.
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      08-08-2018, 04:16 AM   #6507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptCommie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I shoot for 12.75F/13.25R. I can't offer any quantitative data to support my decision other than I want to run as low as I can without having front splitter issues.
I thought you were running the opposite - 13.25F/12.75R?

Scotty, I just set mine up to 13.5F/13R, I'm pretty sure anywhere around what Thunder or I have is fine, that gives you plenty of rake when you look at the rocker panel, and when I put it up on a scale, gave me a 49.5% cross weight. I'm on a 275 Nitto and going to be mounting 285 Pirelli's. Shoot me a dm on IG if you need help.
You're right. Corrected above.
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      08-08-2018, 07:19 AM   #6508
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You're right. Corrected above.
When are you and Heckert coming to Mid Ohio to get some data for me?
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      08-08-2018, 07:57 AM   #6509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptCommie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
You're right. Corrected above.
When are you and Heckert coming to Mid Ohio to get some data for me?
Get Heckert ! Guy is awesome. Hopefully in two weeks I'll break another record.
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      08-08-2018, 11:09 AM   #6510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
i suppose what i was pondering about is what part of it is difficult. keep in mind, i'm not a wheel to wheel guy. i can absolutely see the complication in competition.

it seemed like the difficulty was in the wall being close, "if you go off, you hit the wall."

what can't be seen is some of the videos are things mentioned like undulations in the track, and variables like water on rumble strips.

i was curious about this turn because i know from experience that people start to do goofier shit in the high speed stuff... turn 9 at big willow, the roval at auto club.

its on the list of tracks to visit, so hopefully one of these days i can take a closer look.


People wreck there at HPDEs pretty often, so it's not even a competition thing. I posted the pics of that Camaro Z/28 last month -- he lost the rear end at the kink and totaled the car.

It's true that "if you go off, you hit the wall", but it's easy to go off there due to the unusual positions of corner entry, apex, and exit. If you miss those, and try to correct mid-corner, you're done. Everyone tries to carry as much speed through it as possible because of the large straightaway that follows it.

Interesting you mention the rumble strips. At Road America, many clubs tell their participants NOT to use them because they can set off the airbags.
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      08-08-2018, 01:40 PM   #6511
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So I'm essentially "stringing" my hood to align my trackspec hood vents. Not sure if it's going to work or not...
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      08-08-2018, 01:52 PM   #6512
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So I'm essentially "stringing" my hood to align my trackspec hood vents. Not sure if it's going to work or not...
very brave of you!

i think these are great idea, but i just couldn't do it.
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