My only real problem with American Racing Headers

[duvinclunk]

Sub'd.

[MFL]

Originally Posted by Nick ARH

Guys I appologize for the delay responding. I'm actually at a wedding typing this while my wife is looking at me cross eyed. The BMW headers we're building are not like our other headers. They are fully tig welded and our flange bolt holes are all counter sunk to allow you to reuse the factory studs. These processes add considerable time into the build time. Only our Mercedes and Viper header systems get the same treatment and likewise all three are low volume relative to our other lines.
There is one thing you can be sure of, these systems are here to stay and I will do whatever I can to accommodate all inquiries and recommend what work works best for each individual application. ARH is a young, growing operation that built its reputation by taking a personal interest in what our customers needs are. We are on average more expensive then our competitors but that's par for the course if you want to be 100% USA made.
I know I've said this in the past but I welcome any M3 owner that would like to visit our facility to please make the trip. I believe it'll put into perspective just what involved in building our systems while making it clear why our M3 products are at a whole different level. Thanks.

Nick

Really? Tig Welds and mocking up a manifold to spec = double the price of a product that requires the same level of R&D? That's it? Are they made of ivory too?

So we see less gains for twice the money due to tig welds and not being an LSX variant.

I'm just saying, it looks conveniently price under the top tier of the market while promising higher gains than anything priced lower/higher.

You should take a page from Apex's book. You don't see threads like this for a reason.

[8600RPM]

Guys what don't you get about spreading production cost over a high volume vs a low volume product? Whatever R and D plus making jigs and the molds to produce the material is a low production run so the cost is higher. If you can sell 200 products vs 20 products, than of course you can spread the cost of the project out and make money based on volume rather than margin.

[MFL]

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

Guys what don't you get about spreading production cost over a high volume vs a low volume product? Whatever R and D plus making jigs and the molds to produce the material is a low production run so the cost is higher. If you can sell 200 products vs 20 products, than of course you can spread the cost of the project out and make money based on volume rather than margin.

If these did what they claim they would do, they would have no problem selling 200 sets of their headers/x-section for the same amount as they charge Mustang owners.

I'm reserving the right to be impressed on the performance numbers independently of my stance on their pricing model.

[E92cannon]

Iv been reading alot about these headers and interested BUT who in the right mind would spend that kind of money when most have a X-Pipe with no primary cats and they is no prrof it makes more power with or without a tune.

I wouldnt buy a set until I know they make more power than a catless x-pipe.

[Nick ARH]

Originally Posted by squartus

That and American Racing showed they have no idea about the exhaust on our car, Nick posted that removal of primary cat would only give 3-5hp...and that the gains were from the headers...

So either a straight up liar thats simply trying to inflate numbers to sell a product quickly to people that do not know better.
Or:
They are clueless about the M3 platform.

Either way anything they say or claim needs to be taken with a grain of salt to say the least. Still waiting on independent dynos from a car pre and post headers with cats etc already removed.

For a supercharged car the gains do seem to be decent though, NA its looking more around the range of 10hp gain maybe

Squartus, you're putting words in my mouth. Lying I don't do. I said replacing the factory cats which are 400 cell and swapping in our 200 cell will net you 4-5 additional RWHP. Look up Rcracin results thread. Although I've yet to see more than 10 RWHP gains on cat delete swaps on domestic applications, the majority of power always comes from our headers from my experience.

Nick

[Nick ARH]

Originally Posted by E92cannon

Iv been reading alot about these headers and interested BUT who in the right mind would spend that kind of money when most have a X-Pipe with no primary cats and they is no prrof it makes more power with or without a tune.

I wouldnt buy a set until I know they make more power than a catless x-pipe.

Cannon, we've already sold some systems as headers only and supply short connection pipes sized to fit your existing catback on the outlet side. Price is far lower. You don't have to replace what you have. We can splice into it which would save money.

Nick

[MFL]

Originally Posted by Nick ARH

Squartus, you're putting words in my mouth. Lying I don't do. I said replacing the factory cats which are 400 cell and swapping in our 200 cell will net you 4-5 additional RWHP. Look up Rcracin results thread. Although I've yet to see more than 10 RWHP gains on cat delete swaps on domestic applications, the majority of power always comes from our headers from my experience.

Nick

But back to the point. Feel free to rationalize why you sell the same concept for another car for half as much. Then take it from there, the jury is out on the performance gains, this post was made to address your presumed ridiculous pricing.

Tig welds and an obligatory mock-up work for fitment don't strike me as grounds to inflate the price two fold. You sell the same setups for Corvettes, Camaro's, Chargers, Mustangs, for half as much as you're trying to sell us similar for. Why?

It's a fair question that I'm at least giving you an opportunity to answer.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by Nick ARH

Squartus, you're putting words in my mouth. Lying I don't do. I said replacing the factory cats which are 400 cell and swapping in our 200 cell will net you 4-5 additional RWHP. Look up Rcracin results thread. Although I've yet to see more than 10 RWHP gains on cat delete swaps on domestic applications, the majority of power always comes from our headers from my experience.

Nick

And here is your problem. You refuse to acknowledge the facts. Our cars make a ton of power simply by removing the primary cats. No one here cares about what OTHER brands of cars do with your headers. We are not buying headers for a mustang or vette so please quit referencing your other lines of products. Just because they make power doesn't mean your M3 headers will. You have made dozens of post but not a SINGLE ONE has provided any true data on your M3 headers on a NA car. NONE

[MFL]

Originally Posted by BigBoosting

And here is your problem. You refuse to acknowledge the facts. Our cars make a ton of power simply by removing the primary cats. No one here cares about what OTHER brands of cars do with your headers.

This thread is about price points. I made it specifically set aside from disputes on their performance gains as it's pointless without more data. This is only about the pricing and their perception of this market.

[Nick ARH]

MFL, I already explained the difference. With all due respect, if you don't know the difference between a fully tig welded set of headers with custom machined flanges and our standard headers that are mig welded externally and do not have counter sunk bolt holes, that isn't my fault. I invite you and any M3 owner to take a ride by our facility for a tour. It'll be a learning experience I assure you. I don't know how else to explain the difference quite honestly. The process of building these headers is costlier and more time consuming.

Nick

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by MFL

Cost for a Mustang owner: $1539


Cost for a M3 owner: $3,200 ????


This is a fair question/comparison. So I'll be impressed if ARH even addresses, let alone rationalizes it.

I agree whole hardheartedly. In fact I brought it up earlier, the cost of the jig machines and all the equipment is already there. If these headers with cats were just above the $2200 it cost for the Mustang this would be a no-brainer.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by MFL

This thread is about price points. I made it specifically set aside from disputes on their performance gains as it's pointless without more data. This is only about the pricing and their perception of this market.

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I agree whole hardheartedly. In fact I brought it up earlier, the cost of the jig machines and all the equipment is already there. If these headers with cats were just above the $2200 it cost for the Mustang this would be a no-brainer.

Why don't you guys build and sell your own longtube 3in manifolds, i'm sure a few would buy them if you sold them at less than $2,000.

[Harry Da Hamster]

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

Its amazing how little people understand about how products are priced or basic supply and demand.

Total US vehicle sales volume for 2014:

Dodge Challenger (all models): 51,611

Ford Mustang (all models): 82,565

BMW 3 Series (all models inc M3): 142,232

(Couldn't find data on only performance models)


Comparison for full length exhaust systems with 1 3/4"-3" headers:

Dodge Challenger: $2,805.00

Ford Mustang: $2,844.00

BMW M3: 4,545.00

Ford Mustang outsells Dodge Challenger by 1/3. If you argument of supply and demand is accurate, why is the Dodge Challenger full exhaust system less expensive than Ford Mustang?

Originally Posted by Nick ARH

MFL, I already explained the difference. With all due respect, if you don't know the difference between a fully tig welded set of headers with custom machined flanges and our standard headers that are mig welded externally and do not have counter sunk bolt holes, that isn't my fault. I invite you and any M3 owner to take a ride by our facility for a tour. It'll be a learning experience I assure you. I don't know how else to explain the difference quite honestly. The process of building these headers is costlier and more time consuming.

Nick

Absolutely silly that you're charging 50% more for counter sunk holes and external TIG welds.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Shredicus

Bottom line is let the eager early adopters get pounded with the markup, and once the seller realizes their pricing structure is untenable in the long run markdowns to a more palatable level should follow to capture a larger portion of the market. At that point the "research" is done, the material cost is almost assuredly identical to the half-price mustang system, and it makes more sense to sell discounted units than none at all. Obviously their material and production costs for making these headers are going to be well under retail for what the mustang system costs, so some napkin math estimates a conservative 3-400% markup to cover R&D.

That hasn't translated well in the supercharger market.

[s85e90]

I'll be the first to bitch about the markup on higher end cars, but why haven't any of you complained about buying a $ 3,500 Akra exhaust that sounds marginal at best and actually LOSES torque?

[Harry Da Hamster]

Originally Posted by s85e90

I'll be the first to bitch about the markup on higher end cars, but why haven't any of you complained about buying a $ 3,500 Akra exhaust that sounds marginal at best and actually LOSES torque?

I assure you it's been bitched about many times in the past. Akra is made of titanium. Let's stay on topic

[s85e90]

This is the topic. You're singling out ARH but its every vendor here. Economies of scale suck and it only gets worse. The more expensive the car = the more discretionary money the manufacturer/vendor believes you have to spend on parts. ARH is just in the spot light this week.

[MFL]

Originally Posted by Nick ARH

MFL, I already explained the difference. With all due respect, if you don't know the difference between a fully tig welded set of headers with custom machined flanges and our standard headers that are mig welded externally and do not have counter sunk bolt holes, that isn't my fault. I invite you and any M3 owner to take a ride by our facility for a tour. It'll be a learning experience I assure you. I don't know how else to explain the difference quite honestly. The process of building these headers is costlier and more time consuming.

Nick

Yeah...and your mig welded kits are still more expensive than most kits in any other respective market. Your C7 Corvette system is also 'Tig Welded' and is selling for $1900 without mufflers. The same exact setup for my car is $3,200.

You haven't explained the difference, you explained a delta between the kits, but you have not mentioned how welds and custom flanges double the price of your already expensive offerings on other vehicles.

Can you just mig weld a set for me and charge me half?

Dinan is going to tig weld everything with custom flanges once they realize they can double their prices as a result.

Seriously though. How about this, a simple/FAIR question.

How can tig welds and custom flanges = twice as much as your other offerings?

Again, you've stated the difference, but I don't see any added value on it...let alone something that doubles the already inflated price.

[MFL]

Originally Posted by s85e90

This is the topic. You're singling out ARH but its every vendor here. Economies of scale suck and it only gets worse. The more expensive the car = the more discretionary money the manufacturer/vendor believes you have to spend on parts. ARH is just in the spot light this week.

It's not a more expensive car. These cars sell for $40,000 average now. The people that paid high 70's for them have moved on to the next new toy most likely.

[darkbmw]

This is getting old quick if you don't like the price don't buy it if u don't like the lack of dyno results get over it. Everyone on this forum knows dyno's can lie.

[MFL]

Originally Posted by darkbmw

This is getting old quick if you don't like the price don't buy it if u don't like the lack of dyno results get over it. Everyone on this forum knows dyno's can lie.

I guess I don't see why we have a forum at all. These forums are here to discuss the product and its' vendors and it's a way for vendors to interface with their target market.

Calm down. This is by design.