How badly does catless xpipe void the warranty?

[werly]

Well...this is posted at another subforum but I don't mind getting more help on this subject

As I am getting closer to putting a catless xpipe on the car my concern grows. I know getting such a mod will throw a CEL and definitely dealer will not fix that specific issue.

But I wonder if doing a catless pipe will also affect my ability to get regular warranty service item such as engine oil change and brake fluid...etc, those are not directly related to the airflow underneath the car?

Obviously I have limited knowledge to the warranty coverage and any help would be appreciated!

[C|3R1C]

Originally Posted by werly

Well...this is posted at another subforum but I don't mind getting more help on this subject

As I am getting closer to putting a catless xpipe on the car my concern grows. I know getting such a mod will throw a CEL and definitely dealer will not fix that specific issue.

But I wonder if doing a catless pipe will also affect my ability to get regular warranty service item such as engine oil change and brake fluid...etc, those are not directly related to the airflow underneath the car?

Obviously I have limited knowledge to the warranty coverage and any help would be appreciated!

Regular service items are not affected as those are not warranty claim, but rather "pre-paid services" when you bought the car. It is totally seperate. You might run into problems with engine warranty with the SES, but you can get a tune to cover it up. However, as I have said in other posts, you need a good relatinship with your dealership and depending how strict they are, they may or may not overlook your mods. If the techs like you and also like modding cars, they understand. If they are super by the book, they wont void your warranty per se, but just deny you coverage for those claims. Other things not related to the engine are still covered, like light bulbs and stuff. This comes from first hand experience. On really major stuff, you will have to change back to the stock x-pipe, so dont ever get rid of that.

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by C|3R1C

Regular service items are not affected as those are not warranty claim, but rather "pre-paid services" when you bought the car. It is totally seperate. You might run into problems with engine warranty with the SES, but you can get a tune to cover it up. However, as I have said in other posts, you need a good relatinship with your dealership and depending how strict they are, they may or may not overlook your mods. If the techs like you and also like modding cars, they understand. If they are super by the book, they wont void your warranty per se, but just deny you coverage for those claims. Other things not related to the engine are still covered, like light bulbs and stuff. This comes from first hand experience. On really major stuff, you will have to change back to the stock x-pipe, so dont ever get rid of that.

A catless xpipe is not going to harm your engine. It is also an easy swap out. A tune will most likely not harm your engine... but if push came to shove a tune would be detectable. I'd avoid a tune if you are concerned about your warranty.

[crabman]

I'm curious here but do you mean wont have a problem as in not make a big deal out of it when you come in for regular service or wont be a problem as in they will go ahead and do the warranty repair, say a blown engine despite the mods? These are two very different things. In the former your warranty isn't worth spit on the driveline, in the latter your warranty will be there for you in your time of blown engine.

People often get bit by this one because they think they have a working warranty on the driveline when the dealer made no issue of power producing mods but actually its been out the window the whole time but they didn't know it because they hadn't had to use it. They'll fix that broken power mirror and the like but lose an expensive part in the driveline and of a sudden, hello denial. Its a good idea to remember that no matter what your dealers stance is there are many parts they cant order for warranty until a regional guy comes in and approves it and I have yet to hear of one of those guys that was mod friendly.

This is an actual question BTW, I have not had experience with modding a BMW but I have done quite a few other makes and never seen it be other than I describe so I'm curious if anyone can say that yes, they definitely had a major driveline failure and no issue was made of their power producing mods and it was covered under warranty.

[tibra1]

How badly?..just a little badly not too badly..

Anyone says being catless wont affect warranty is living in LA LA land..been there.. full catless can be held to blame.. for example, on 335i I had trouble getting them to cover o2 sensors..only thing saved me was long history with same SA and he pushed it thru..and we are talking only o2 sensors here..

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by tibra1

How badly?..just a little badly not too badly..

Anyone says being catless wont affect warranty is living in LA LA land..been there.. full catless can be held to blame.. for example, on 335i I had trouble getting them to cover o2 sensors..only thing saved me was long history with same SA and he pushed it thru..and we are talking only o2 sensors here..

Your O2 sensors are part of your exhaust, and you tampered with it. I wouldn't expect them to cover that... it would make no sense. Now if you float a valve or have Vanos failure... that is not going to be caused by a catless x pipe.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

Your O2 sensors are part of your exhaust, and you tampered with it. I wouldn't expect them to cover that... it would make no sense. Now if you float a valve or have Vanos failure... that is not going to be caused by a catless x pipe.

Yeah but the dealer likes to draw dotted lines to other failures even engine issues and blame it on being catless,,its not outta of the realm of reality..as others have said..get to know your SA

[C|3R1C]

Tibra1 is right. They just say "o2 set of the DME and it messed up other things" when we know it didn't. It's a good out for them and hard for us to prove otherwise

[werly]

Aite...so my conclusion is

It all depends on the dealership. Normally regular service items like oil change should be covered unless the claim is about engine air flow.

But the dealership could make a big deal out of it and claim the result of having a catless xpipe is universal

So now, the question remains, where in SoCal does a mod friendly service dealership locate

[THE TECH]

Originally Posted by werly

Aite...so my conclusion is

It all depends on the dealership. Normally regular service items like oil change should be covered unless the claim is about engine air flow.

But the dealership could make a big deal out of it and claim the result of having a catless xpipe is universal

So now, the question remains, where in SoCal does a mod friendly service dealership locate

I use Steve Thomas only and deal with Travis.

[crabman]

Like I said, keep in mind no matter how mod friendly the dealership is there are many major repairs they cannot make without approval from a regional guy that comes in to have a look and they are not mod friendly, they don't sell cars, they absolutely will nix anything on the drivetrain if the car is tuned or has any part which might add power. The dealership can then choose to pay out of pocket or punt. At that point you better be ready to catch the warranty football because you will become your own warranty station.

The old saying back in vettes was do not mod unless you were prepared to be and financially capable of being your own warranty station. This is a truth that applies to any car. I have pursued a Moss-Mag to its conclusion and I can tell you what my attorney told me. If you do anything that adds power they can pretty much toss the drivetrain warranty at will. They are in no way responsible to warranty the car at any power level other than the one the car came with as delivered. A cat delete can/will add power and I can promise you that regional guy knows it and he will do his job which is specifically to look for exactly that.

Something to think about is that should you choose to fight a denial you are guilty until you prove otherwise. Possession is 9/10s of the law and the dealership is only the face you talk to on the organism that possesses your warranty repair. When you are denied you can either leave your car broke or fix it out of pocket. Even should you be completely right you will not see any remedy until you are on the other end of a process that will stretch out months or in my case more than a year. You will pay real money out of pocket for your legal fees which can be somewhat reduced if you are willing to donate your own time. But you will pay, either time or money. You may never recover your legal fees right or wrong and in my case I won out but I did not. You will never recover your time.

They cannot void your warranty in its entirety unless the car meets certain specific criteria and those likely will not apply to us with the mods we do. There is odo tampering, the vehicle has been declared a total loss by insurance, the vehicle has been altered so much as to change its intended use from that for which it was sold, a couple others that I don't remember as its been ten years or so since my lesson. What most of us will face is a loss of a set part of the new car warranty while it otherwise remains in affect. Usually it will be drivetrain that goes out the window.

I'm not trying to say don't do it, I have done it myself many times. And in several cases they were significant mods that most people wouldn't even have to ask about warranty on, they know its gone. I do think that a person should know what everything between the tips of the tailpipe and the radiator costs and be prepared to pay for it because it may be that one fine day they will.

[ksflatlander]

now if we are talking just a muffler change and leaving the cats in place, there would be zero chance of a warranty denial, correct? That sort of mod does not change the power, right? Just the sound...

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by ksflatlander

now if we are talking just a muffler change and leaving the cats in place, there would be zero chance of a warranty denial, correct? That sort of mod does not change the power, right? Just the sound...

Yes 99% dealers will not care about section 3 -again talk it over with your SA just to be sure..its when you remove the primary and/or secondary cats that you could be in trouble..the dealer can attribute any and everything emissions related to this ..which is alot..

Going to a free flow section 3 will net you maybe 5HP at most

[mgiglio2]

Did it on my previous car, an e90 335i and had no issues what so ever...

[edwinm3]

I have a full AA exhaust and tune, techs and advisors love it when I show up and rev it up. I've had a good relationship with this dealer for a very long time though

[ksflatlander]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

I have a full AA exhaust and tune, techs and advisors love it when I show up and rev it up. I've had a good relationship with this dealer for a very long time though

I suspect you've never had a major drive train issue either. Much as they may like you, I don't think it will matter if something goes that can be blamed on additional power (and anything drive train related can).

Spoken from personal experience. Good friends at a dealership a couple years ago (one of them the OWNER) couldn't do squat about my warranty denial.

Yup, it's all fun and everybody loves ya 'till sumthin' gives way and you're on your own. Modding is fun and I've done my share, just NEVER dilude yourself into thinking you still have a drive train warranty. You DON'T. Plain and simple.

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by ksflatlander

I suspect you've never had a major drive train issue either. Much as they may like you, I don't think it will matter if something goes that can be blamed on additional power (and anything drive train related can).

Spoken from personal experience. Good friends at a dealership a couple years ago (one of them the OWNER) couldn't do squat about my warranty denial.

Yup, it's all fun and everybody loves ya 'till sumthin' gives way and you're on your own. Modding is fun and I've done my share, just NEVER dilude yourself into thinking you still have a drive train warranty. You DON'T. Plain and simple.

This seems likely. What warranty issue did you have?

[Beemw335]

Just take it off for big warranty claims.

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by ksflatlander

I suspect you've never had a major drive train issue either. Much as they may like you, I don't think it will matter if something goes that can be blamed on additional power (and anything drive train related can).

Spoken from personal experience. Good friends at a dealership a couple years ago (one of them the OWNER) couldn't do squat about my warranty denial.

Yup, it's all fun and everybody loves ya 'till sumthin' gives way and you're on your own. Modding is fun and I've done my share, just NEVER dilude yourself into thinking you still have a drive train warranty. You DON'T. Plain and simple.

Actually I did have a major warranty issue when I had my E46 M3 and it was still under warranty. Car was modded, full exhaust and tuned. They fixed it no problem. I then supercharged it but it was already out of warranty.

I can appreciate what you're saying and totally understand where you're coming from but, I'm not really worried about that being an issue.

[ksflatlander]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

This seems likely. What warranty issue did you have?

Since you asked...

It was a Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel. Dodge had a problem with one of it's vendors for the injector pump. Known issue and they were replacing quite a few of them. Mine failed. I had a Banks kit on the truck (awesome system BTW). The SA, the mechanic, and the head of the service department all agreed the failure had nothing to do with the Banks kit.

The SA and the OWNER of the dealership were good friends of mine. Didn't matter. Dodge had an excuse to deny the warranty claim and they did. The dealership even wrote a letter to the district office signed by the service dept manager and owner of the dealership. Denied. This with a KNOWN ISSUE on the part that failed.

They had an excuse and they used it. $2,200 later, I was back on the road. Lesson is, that at the end of the day, the dealership does NOT have the final say and it doesn't make a hill of beans difference how "good a relationship" you have with your dealer.

Little things? No big deal. The relationship can shield you somewhat. Anything major? You're majorly screwed.

So I say again... mod all you want - it's fun and very enjoyable and often rewardable hobby - just do it with your eyes wide open! YOU are now in charge of your own drive train warranty for anything major the dealership can't shield you from.

Plain and simple. I have lots of other examples from buddies over the years. This is not an isolated incident. Moss/Magnuson doesn't help cuz they don't pay and then YOU have to prove otherwise and make them pay. Good luck with that. They have more lawyers - already paid for with all the time in the world.

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by ksflatlander

Since you asked...

It was a Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel. Dodge had a problem with one of it's vendors for the injector pump. Known issue and they were replacing quite a few of them. Mine failed. I had a Banks kit on the truck (awesome system BTW). The SA, the mechanic, and the head of the service department all agreed the failure had nothing to do with the Banks kit.

The SA and the OWNER of the dealership were good friends of mine. Didn't matter. Dodge had an excuse to deny the warranty claim and they did. The dealership even wrote a letter to the district office signed by the service dept manager and owner of the dealership. Denied. This with a KNOWN ISSUE on the part that failed.

They had an excuse and they used it. $2,200 later, I was back on the road. Lesson is, that at the end of the day, the dealership does NOT have the final say and it doesn't make a hill of beans difference how "good a relationship" you have with your dealer.

Little things? No big deal. The relationship can shield you somewhat. Anything major? You're majorly screwed.

So I say again... mod all you want - it's fun and very enjoyable and often rewardable hobby - just do it with your eyes wide open! YOU are now in charge of your own drive train warranty for anything major the dealership can't shield you from.

Plain and simple. I have lots of other examples from buddies over the years. This is not an isolated incident. Moss/Magnuson doesn't help cuz they don't pay and then YOU have to prove otherwise and make them pay. Good luck with that. They have more lawyers - already paid for with all the time in the world.

Ah.. you had a modified turbo? Yeah.. I mean, I think that's quite a difference in comparison to an x pipe. The exhaust is leaving the car, nothing is passing through the engine.. and you aren't going to run excessively lean or rich.

[ksflatlander]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

This seems likely. What warranty issue did you have?

Originally Posted by Rekrul

Ah.. you had a modified turbo? Yeah.. I mean, I think that's quite a difference in comparison to an x pipe. The exhaust is leaving the car, nothing is passing through the engine.. and you aren't going to run excessively lean or rich.

Wow. Completely missed the point.

THE POINT of the story is that anything you do that could be viewed to INCREASE POWER can be viewed to put additional strain on the rest of the power train that it was not originally engineered to handle. That's their blanket excuse and they can use it any time they want and the dealer has nothing to say about it.

A full aftermarket exhaust increases power. Not much, but it does. Fact. A valve melts, throw a rod, lose a main bearing, you name it... all they have to say is the car was operating at a power level above what they engineered. Sure, Moss/Magnuson says they have to prove it caused the failure. True. But that is AFTER they deny your warranty claim and AFTER you hire a lawyer or spend your time to try and sue them yourself and spend all the money doing so. Are you going to do that. Maybe. Probably not though. And your car isn't fixed unless you pay to fix it or go through the year or so it takes to try and make them. That's reality. And it's between you and BMWNA NOT your local dealer.

And, by the way, the Banks kit in my example put ZERO extra strain on the injection pump as PROVEN by Banks Engineering with full documentation from their R&D department showing all the voltage ranges possible from the control unit being within STOCK tolerances. This is why the service manager and the owner of the dealership fought so hard. The Banks kit had NOTHING to do with the failure. But as I said before - didn't matter. They had their "excuse" and they used it. It's a loosing battle.